Knoxville PD apologizes for open carry incident in Wal-Mart

[wareagle]

This is an update on an incident that occurred outside a Knoxville area Wal-Mart. I am not involved in anyway, but thought I'd share. Here's the background from Mr. Putnam's Blog.

"Background

I had been shopping for groceries at the Walker Springs Wal-Mart with my girlfriend, Samantha Williams. I was dressed neatly enough in clean blue Levis and a grey T-shirt, tucked in. My carry firearm, a Colt Concealed Carry Officers Model, was holstered and safed on my right hip in a Brommeland IWB holster. As it was warm that night, I left my jacket in the car, and neglected to un-tuck my shirt over the firearm. We proceeded to shop for groceries for the next 20 minutes. At no time did anyone I encountered in the store raise alarm or cause panic over the sight of my carry firearm. After paying for our groceries, we exited the store and passed Officer Greene in the foyer, who was engaged in conversation with a Wal-Mart Employee. He was located against the wall, to my right. My hands were both on the cart at the time I passed him, my girlfriend was holding my left arm. After I had passed him, I heard Officer Greene exclaim “hey!” and I half-turned to respond to him. He came towards me quickly, and said “You got any ID on you, buddy?” I responded “Yes, I have my carry permit” thinking that he likely wanted to make sure I was licensed to carry a firearm. Both my hands were still on the cart at this time.

He then said “Let me see”, and I then reached for my front pants pocket, when I keep my wallet. At this time, Officer Greene took my wrist in his hand, twisted it back and away, and placed his other hand in my back, forcing me forward into the concrete wall just outside the outer door of the store. This movement caused me to lose my grip on my full cart of groceries, and it began to roll out into the parking lot. As the officer was pushing me forward, I held out my left hand to keep from hitting the wall with full force. When I moved my left hand to protect my face and chest from hitting the wall, Officer Greene shouted “Put ‘em up, keep those hands up there” and pulled my other hand over my head as he pushed my body into the wall. He then kicked and pushed at my ankles with his boots to cause me to stand spread-eagle against the wall. I attempted to inform him that I did have a TN Handgun Carry Permit, and that my mode of carry was legal, to which he yelled “It’s a concealed carry permit, don’t you know what concealed means?” I responded, still calmly, that in TN, “The state code doesn’t specify concealed carry; it’s simply a handgun carry permit.” This statement seemed to make Officer Greene even angrier, and he shouted “Do you think you know more about the law than me? I’ve been a police officer here for 7 years!” I replied “In this case, since we teach the Handgun Carry Permit Course where I work, I’m sure I know this law.” Officer Greene yelled again “I don’t care what you teach, you can’t go around carrying a gun where people can see it. Where do you work?” I informed him that I worked at Coal Creek Armory.

Officer Greene took my wallet, my car keys, both of my pocketknives, and kept his hand on my carry firearm as he called in my driver license to dispatch. In between speaking into his radio, he continued to berate me for carrying my firearm, and emphasized several time that I was incorrect about open carry. I attempted to inform him otherwise, still polite and calm, as I knew I had violated no law. Officer Greene informed me that “My probably cause is that you’re carrying a gun out here, inciting a panic, and that’s all it takes for you to sleep in jail tonight.” I stated, again, that my carry permit was valid, and TN State law permitted handgun carry open or concealed, and that I usually carry concealed. He said that my permit had “better say just that, handgun carry,” but even if it did, he’d just “find some other reason to take me in, disorderly conduct, or inciting a panic. I’ll make some reason.” I was shocked to hear him openly state that he would manufacture probable cause to falsely arrest me, in the hearing of my girlfriend, standing no less than 5 feet away, the Wal-Mart employee he had been speaking with, and the small crowd of bystanders watching.

Officer Greene attempted to draw my firearm to remove it from my holster, but I informed him there were belt snaps on it, and he could just undo them. He did so, and removed firearm and holster from my belt, and then asked me “Is this loaded, one in the chamber? Do you think you can just walk around like that with a loaded gun out in the open?” I confirmed that my defensive firearm was, in fact, loaded and chambered, with the safety on. He asked me “Now, am I gonna find anything else on you? You got anything else I need to know about?” I looked down and saw that he had not removed my Surefire flashlight from my front left pocket, and could feel the tiny CRKT pocketknife in my 5.11 boots pocket. He has missed them while frisking me, and I informed him of their location. He removed them , and then berated me for carrying more than one knife, asking me “what’s your problem, why are you carrying so many knives?” I told him that customers often prefer to buy the knife a salesperson uses, and so I carried one for opening boxes, and two “just in case” to show customers. He registered strong disbelief.

He continued “When I carry off duty, how do you think I carry my gun? It’s concealed, has to be concealed by law. You think the law’s any different for you and me? I’ve been a police officer here in Knoxville for seven years, and I’ve never seen anyone with a permit open carrying.”

I informed him that concealed carry off duty was a KPD regulation(I know a bit about KPD carry regulations, having dated the sister of a KPD officer for 2 years, and have a few more as customers and personal friends), but that a TN Handgun Carry Permit allowed for open or concealed carry. I stated that I had just left work, picked up my girlfriend, and went straight to Wal-Mart, and was carrying just as I had all day at work.

Officer Greene then told me to have a seat, stood in front of me on the bench, and continued to berate me for carrying a firearm. He handed me my wallet, told me to get my permit out from under my driver license. I did so, and handed it to him. He looked at it, and I stated “Handgun carry permit, doesn’t specify concealed.” He stated that that was “no excuse” for walking around with a gun out in the open, and said that I was lucky he was so gentle, because some of his fellow officers would have had me “proned-out on the ground” as soon as I walked past them with a firearm on my hip. “Is that how you think I should deal with you?” I said “However you think it should be handled” and remained quiet, as I did not wish to enter into an argument. I asked him to hand my girlfriend the keys to my car, so that she could put away our groceries, which he did.

At this point his backup arrived in a cruiser, and he told me to stay put, and asked the Red-shirted Loss Prevention Wal-Mart employee to watch me, and then went to speak to the other officer. I looked over at my girlfriend who was understandably upset, and tried to console her. When the officer returned with his partner, he handed me back my work keys, knives and light, and told me to “put them away” and then handed me back my holstered firearm, and said “take it, and conceal it. Do it.” I retrieved my items, put them away, and asked if I was free to leave. He nodded, and I retrieved my girlfriend, and walked to my car.

Points of Complaint-

TCA §39-13-101 - Assault. At no time before, after or during the incident of the 21<SUP>st</SUP> was there any probable Officer Greene to lay hands upon me, or to subsequently propel me towards a building wall. Officer Greene or any other officer of the law, as per TCA§39-17-1351, may disarm a permit holder within the course of his duties, but only “when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals[1].” As I had no suspicious appearance and was engaged in no criminal or even suspicious activity, nor indeed any activity other than walking out of a public store, at normal speed with my hands in plain view; reasonable belief that I represented a danger or threat to any person could not have been based simply upon view of a holstered firearm. Officer Greene’s claim that I was “inciting a panic” was absurd, as he was the only person to object to my legally carried firearm during my visit to the store, unless he himself was panicked.

The same opinion makes it clear that Tennessee State law does not require a person granted a Handgun Carry Permit under TCA §39-17-1351, to carry such a firearm concealed. Hence, no probable cause for detainment, frisk, or disarmament existed, other than my legal carry of a handgun. The act of carrying a firearm openly does not, on its own, represent a crime, and therefore, is not, by itself, probable cause for the officer to disarm such a person carrying a firearm legally, as per the Attorney General’s instruction of October 11, 2005[2]. His ignorance of the TN Code’s absence of a requirement that a legally carried handgun be concealed, and the Attorney General’s clarification of this stance, is no excuse for his illegal handling of my person or property.

Illegal Search - As per the Tennessee State Constitution, Sec. 7, TN citizens are to be “secure in their persons… from unreasonable searches and seizures”[3]. As no legal probable cause for my physical detainment existed, Officer Greene’s subsequent frisk and seizure of my personal property, including my wallet, flashlight, keys and carry firearm, constitute an illegal search under TN law. “Officer safety” is not a valid defense to this Section when the underlying cause for the disarmament is legally invalid.

In conclusion, I will state that I appreciate the difficult and demanding job Knoxville Police officers have taken on as their profession, and that they must at all times keep their own safety to the forefront. However, these concerns cannot be permitted to override the individual right of the people of TN to be free from arbitrary, unlawful or uninformed police action as they peaceably go about their business.

I would have been happy to provide identification as asked, and attempted to do so, as asked, and responded politely and respectfully to questions of comments. I would have even complied with a polite request that I conceal my firearm, to prevent uneasiness on the part of other shoppers, even though it is not required by law. However, the officer made the choice to physically handle me in a rough manner, and further subjected me to ill-informed harassment on the statues of the State of Tennessee.

This is utterly unacceptable, both on the part of the officer who made the decision to forcibly restrain, then to attempt to instruct me, and on the part of the police dept that permitted an officer of their department to go so woefully uneducated on TN law for his stated 7 years of employment with the Knoxville Police Dept.

To further hear a duly sworn officer of the law announce, in front of multiple witnesses that he would “find some cause” to wrongfully imprison me, is beyond shocking to me. I can’t imagine what was running through his mind when he made that statement to me, but I cannot and will not assume that such behavior is permitted or condoned by the KPD, unless of course, the Knoxville Police Department’s high-ranking authority figures fail to strongly demonstrate otherwise.

The state of Tennessee recognizes and grants a regulated and restricted right to keep and bear arms, and those who have undergone the arduous process of obtaining a TN Handgun Carry Permit are not the enemy of the police officer, but rather, his ally. At my place of business, we have certified hundreds of people through the TN Handgun Carry Permit Class, and encourage all of them to behave in a safe, sane and above all, legal manner. To have that trust that their Handgun Carry Permit, when finally issued after multiple checks, will not be properly recognized or respected by KPD officers when it is exercised, is inexcusable to myself and all people in the State of Tennessee. Many hundreds of Knoxvillians, new and seasoned shooters alike attained carry permits, in the wake of the Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom murders, and they will watch closely for the Department’s official response to this utterly incorrect handling of a TN Carry Permit holder.

1. I have not, at this time, retained counsel for redress of the aforementioned violations of my rights under the law, but reserve the right to do so. I will, should I choose to file suit, copy you on the service as a courtesy.

Lieutenant Ferguson, I appreciate your attention to this matter, and hope that we will correspond further regarding the department’s response. Should you wish to reach me for a meeting regarding this matter, please feel free to contact me at 865.567.1181. "

http://www.coltcco.com/?p=187

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/sep/22/gun-owner-receives-apology/

http://web.knoxnews.com/pdf/0922putnam-reply.pdf

http://web.knoxnews.com/pdf/0922putnam-findings.pdf

http://web.knoxnews.com/pdf/0922putnam-case.pdf

[Guest slothful1]

So they found that "no unnecessary force was used." Has anyone inquired with KPD as to exactly how much force IS appropriate when it's used, without provocation, against someone who is obeying the law?

[DavidD]

Not that I am advocating suing the KPD, but you should obtain legal counsel before posting anything else or commenting further as the most serious charge you have levied has been dismissed by the KPD. Beyond that, it would be nice if you could get a copy of the Officers Patrol Car Video and post it here for All to draw their own conclusions regarding the excessive force you mention. From your accounts, it sounds that Officer Greene was not only ignorant of Tennessee law, but plain STUPID for bringing up Ohio's law where he worked 7 years prior. It is absolutely rediculous that this "excuse" was reiterated in the IAD report. Further more, I believe Officer Greene is a criminal for his statements about fabricating charges and should loose his badge if your accounts are substantiated by several witnesses or the video/recording mentioned in the IAD report. Either way, the reprimand and apology is some Justice, no matter how impotent it may sound. I can say without doubt that the incident was blown completely out of proportion by Officer Greene and this is a true testament of Officer Greens professionalism and lack of respect for those he is charged and sworn to "Protect and to Serve". You were definitely mistreated here and the Knoxville Police Department as well as the City of Knoxville should truly be ashamed. I have been asked once for my ID after a Metro Nashville Officer noticed my weapon in the small of my back and it was handled quietly and very professionally without disrespecting me OR bringing the situation to the attention of others. It can be done professionaly without use of force.

Food for thought: Should a citizen with a HCP "OFFER" to surrender his weapon prior to reaching for Identification and/or his permit if it is in the general vicinity of the weapon to at least attempt to put the Officer at ease?

David

[wareagle]

FYI, I am not involved in this incident. I have just been following the story. I posted his account to show that these type of incidents can occur anywhere. This isn't limited to the anti-gun states.

[Guest c.a.s.]

I've been following this story since the beginning, after being reffered by Say Uncle (www.saysuncle.com) The KPD did not even address two of his complaints, even after they stated they had the video and audio of the ordeal. Heres a link to his latest post: http://www.coltcco.com/?p=188

[dariks]

Food for thought: Should a citizen with a HCP "OFFER" to surrender his weapon prior to reaching for Identification and/or his permit if it is in the general vicinity of the weapon to at least attempt to put the Officer at ease?

David

I'm still trying to make up my mind on that very subject. I do not want to handle my weapon in the presence of an officer or have it even look like I might reach for it while getting my wallet out of my back pocket.

And as for pressing charges. If I had the money I probably would. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the officer stated that he would "find some other reason to take me in" didn't he himself break the law?

[DaveTN]

Food for thought: Should a citizen with a HCP "OFFER" to surrender his weapon prior to reaching for Identification and/or his permit if it is in the general vicinity of the weapon to at least attempt to put the Officer at ease?

David

My opinion (and that is all it is) as a former Police Officer is that you do not need to offer to surrender your weapon. But if you have contact with a Police Officer that does not know you are armed, and you are doing something that will expose your weapon; you should calmly tell him that you have a <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>HCP</st1:stockticker> and you are armed. After you tell him that; do whatever he says.

<O:p</O:p

After he finishes his investigation (or whatever he is doing) if you think he did something wrong you can call the Police Department and request that they send a Command Officer to your location right then.

<O:p</O:p

Getting in a pizzing match on the street with a cop over laws will rarely end well for you.

Putting the Officer at ease is not important. Having a Police Officer suddenly realize that someone is reaching in the vicinity of a firearm that he did not know was there is.

This guy did the right thing; he complied and then dealt with it later. The Chief admitted that the Officer was wrong and took action. I can assure you that when a Police Chief has to make a public apology for the conduct of an Officer; that Officers career is impacted.

[towerclimber37]

Dave,

so what do you think should happen when a police chief hears one of his officers threaten to manufacture charges against a civilian who'd done nothing wrong?

[DaveTN]

Dave,

so what do you think should happen when a police chief hears one of his officers threaten to manufacture charges against a civilian who'd done nothing wrong?

If it could be proven he should be fired.

<O:p</O:p

The problem here is that we only have one side of the story. In reading the story this guy told I think he is creditable (Unlike the Virginia story). But to take anyone’s job away; whether it is a cop or a citizen I would require the same level of proof that would be required for a conviction in a court of law. If Internal Affairs or a Command Officer feels a crime has been committed… arrest him and give him his day in court. If he is found not guilty he goes back to work with back pay; if gulity, he's fired.

[Mike.357]

This whole thing really gets under my skin.

This is the reason I was told by the instructor ( KCSD Sgt.) to not let your weapon be exposed. I have been told by an instructor from a gun shop that having your gun seen by a LEO around here will get you slammed to the wall. This is more proof of that being true.

I doubt it can be proved but I suspect that it is unnoficial policy of the KPD and KCSD

to harrass us. I am also sure a lot of the LEOs feel that this is an illegal and or immoral order and do not go along with it, but there certainly must be a percentage who are anti gun.

And another thing. This bs about the 2A being a right. Well is surely is not a right, you need permission to carry and a license, does not sound like a right.

But let's pretend it is a right. So why does a cop have the right to disarm you, a legal licensed gun toter? He may do this no matter why he is dealing with you. Obviously the cop does not need to nor will he disarm to ease your concerns. But you must surrender yours. Why does the man make you prove yourself innocent first?

Does anyone know statistics on HCP holders commiting a gun crime? I will venture a guess that it is an abnormally low percentage.

The only rights I have are to be a white man and to breathe, any others are pretty iffy.

[DaveTN]

And another thing. This bs about the 2A being a right. Well is surely is not a right, you need permission to carry and a license, does not sound like a right.

Certainly it isn’t a right; almost every court in the land has ruled that way. You and I both are absolutely positive that we do not have a 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment right. Sometime when I feel like typing a whole bunch I’ll post up my story. It was a blatant violation of law by a criminal Police Officer. I had a lot more to be pizzed off about than you, but you notice I have not turned my back on Cops. One man caused me all my grief and he was eventually arrested and fired (had nothing to do with my case).

This whole thing really gets under my skin.

This is the reason I was told by the instructor ( KCSD Sgt.) to not let your weapon be exposed. I have been told by an instructor from a gun shop that having your gun seen by a LEO around here will get you slammed to the wall. This is more proof of that being true.

I doubt it can be proved but I suspect that it is unnoficial policy of the KPD and KCSD

to harrass us. I am also sure a lot of the LEOs feel that this is an illegal and or immoral order and do not go along with it, but there certainly must be a percentage who are anti gun.

Getting stopped and checked (or slammed into the wall, if you need the drama) is not limited to guns. It happens to people everyday. If you asked 100 people that it has happened to (where it was justified) I would bet that most of them will feel that some right has been violated and they think the cop should be fired.

<O:p</O:p

You have recourse. But if you don’t know the law or understand your rights don’t be surprised when you are left with nothing but a big attorney bill.

This doesn’t happen to most citizens and when it does it can be a traumatic experience for them. The fact that they are upset and pizzed off doesn’t mean the cops did anything wrong.

<O:p</O:p

But let's pretend it is a right. So why does a cop have the right to disarm you, a legal licensed gun toter? He may do this no matter why he is dealing with you. Obviously the cop does not need to nor will he disarm to ease your concerns. But you must surrender yours. Why does the man make you prove yourself innocent first?

Okay… we have already agreed that you do not have a right to bear arms. You have a privilege to carry a handgun under <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><ST1:pTennessee</st1:State> law. Your state doesn’t even recognize it as a right, so how can you expect a cop to. Your privilege doesn't mean that a Police Officer has to put his life in danger (whether that danger is real or perceived). If I was dispatched to a problem or I roll up on a scene and I see guns…. Gun control immediately goes into effect. If I felt the need I would seize your weapon until I find out what is going on. It has nothing to do with whether the cop is pro-gun or anti-gun. I don’t see how any reasonable person could expect anything less.

Does anyone know statistics on HCP holders commiting a gun crime? I will venture a guess that it is an abnormally low percentage.

That would be a safe bet.

The only rights I have are to be a white man and to breathe, any others are pretty iffy.

Being a white male is no big right. You don’t even get to claim they are picking on you because you are ______. (Fill in the blank with whatever.)

</O:p

[The Rabbi]

"Officer Greene" sounds he like needs to be fired. For the good of the dept. Anyone who do something that idiotic and such an abuse of power is going to end up costing his dept money somewhere.

Hassling people for engaging in legal activity is bad ju-ju.

It makes me so mad I want to open carry everywhere now.

[Mark@Sea]

Dave, I'm positive I DO have a right, recognised (not granted) by the second amendment, which same is ignored in far too many places.

Not gonna beat that dead horse, but that one we will never agree on.

Anyway, the "I'll make something up" comment was caught on video. Fired or not, that guy is never gonna have an easy prosecution again. WTF is KPD thinking, not letting him go?

[Guest Hyaloid]

"Officer Greene" sounds he like needs to be fired. For the good of the dept. Anyone who do something that idiotic and such an abuse of power is going to end up costing his dept money somewhere.

Hassling people for engaging in legal activity is bad ju-ju.

It makes me so mad I want to open carry everywhere now.

WHOO-HOO! Another convert? Or have you calmed down and reconsidered now? :D

Mark@Sea, I agree. Hey, that rhymes!

[Mark@Sea]

Open carry - my thoughts on this...

The commonplace isn't frightening. Teach, reach, and demonstrate that it is entirely possible for a regular guy (or gal, but they mostly carry in their purse or what have you - do we need 'designer' holsters?) to have a loaded firearm on their person without going bugnuts.

Every person that asks why you're carrying is an opportunity to make a new gunny.

Every nutcase that harangues you in public for being a mad killer or whatever is a public demonstration of the irrationality of the anti-gun argument. Childlike temper tantrums and hate-filled invective is sort of a neon sign, and it doesn't say "see how right I am?". Every onlooker with a 3 year-old will have that familiar feeling of having seen this behaviour before...

Every store manager that asks you to leave is forced to watch dollars walk away, and after a while, this is going to cause them to re-evaluate their position.

Its' more convenient, more effective, and more fun than walking around with a sign on a stick.

[DaveTN]

Dave, I'm positive I DO have a right, recognised (not granted) by the second amendment, which same is ignored in far too many places.

My point was that a cop can’t violate a right you do not have.

Anyway, the "I'll make something up" comment was caught on video. Fired or not, that guy is never gonna have an easy prosecution again. WTF is KPD thinking, not letting him go?

He didn’t say he would make something up, read it again. He was giving the guy examples of other violation he believed he could arrested the guy for. But I didn’t see a video tape or hear the Officers side of this; is it posted somewhere?

I’m not saying that this Officer did anything right; his own Chief admitted he was wrong. But if there is a video and he gave a statement that is different than what is on that video; they have grounds to fire him.

<O:p</O:p

[The Rabbi]

WHOO-HOO! Another convert? Or have you calmed down and reconsidered now? :D

Mark@Sea, I agree. Hey, that rhymes!

No, I still think it's dumb because it invites incidents like the one that happened. I'd be much happier avoiding same.

But there is something counter-cultural or anti-establishment in me that just screams "suck on my machine gun, ya punk." Or was that Ted Nugent?

[The Rabbi]

My point was that a cop can’t violate a right you do not have.

They can and do all the time.

My position is that rights are accorded by society generally. If no one recognizes such a right then there isn't one. A right is only so if you get to enjoy it. There is no right to carry in NYC. If you do, you'll get arrested. You can go through every court and my prediction is your case will lose. That is not having a right.

In TN you have a right to own guns but carrying is a privilege. By definition anything that requires a permit is a privilege.

[DaveTN]

They can and do all the time.

If they do; you have recourse.

In TN you have a right to own guns but carrying is a privilege. By definition anything that requires a permit is a privilege.

Exactly.

[The Rabbi]

In theory you have recourse. In actual practice it often isnt so.

The use of video dash cameras has really cut down on a lot of stuff. In the old days the cop could make up almost anything and it was just his word against the other guy's. Today that's changed some.

[TGO David]

Every store manager that asks you to leave is forced to watch dollars walk away, and after a while, this is going to cause them to re-evaluate their position.

Its' more convenient, more effective, and more fun than walking around with a sign on a stick.

This argument is flawed. So, you say that you'll never be back. How much do you think that really hurts the business? Open carry patrons probably represent less than 1/10th of 1% of to the total patrons of any business. Do you really think that they notice what they lost when they tally up the books at the end of the month? I doubt it.

Maybe they would notice more if they were a store that sold nothing but red, left foot, New Balance #708 shoes in East Moosefart Nebraska (Pop. 53) and you were one of their regular customers... but I guarantee you that a company the size of a Wal-Mart doesn't notice and doesn't care.

I'm not saying that this behavior from companies is right. I'm just saying that people who brag about voting with their dollars are seriously over estimating their worth to that company.

And I'm not saying either that you should keep giving that company your money if you feel that strongly about the issue or any other issue. It is certainly your prerogative to tell the manager or owner that you're taking your business to a competitor who respects your 2nd Amendment right to carry a firearm whether it be concealed or openly visible.

This is why I don't call our Prohibited Carry Locations Database something silly like "Gun Owner Unfriendly Businesses" because I think it comes across as being fairly pretentious. Those businesses do want your money, after all. They just don't want your guns on their private property, and that is their prerogative and right as well.

[Mark@Sea]

Dave, Rabbi - you guys call it a privilege, if you like. I'm gonna continue saying it is a right (recognised also by the TN constitution, IIRC).

I'm not going to beat that dead horse. Nor will I advocate that you open carry. If you aren't comfortable with it, then don't do it.

I will note that this incident has certainly gotten KPD's attention, which wouldn't have happened had the guy been carrying concealed.

Looking forward to the civil suit, if there is one, (and there dam' well should be) to further hammer the point home.

Dave, you're right. This guy didn't say he'd make something up, he said he'd "find a reason".

I guess you could call that a 'subtle nuance'?

[Mark@Sea]

Tungsten, I'm confused... Wal-mart allows OC.

Yeah, the property owner has a right to prohibit OC, I'm not arguing with that. I have the right to make my purchasing decisions. I'd just like the owner to know why I'm walking out without the four carts of groceries.*

* - my wife won't let me grocery shop anymore.... can't imagine why.

[DaveTN]

This is why I don't call our Prohibited Carry Locations Database something silly like "Gun Owner Unfriendly Businesses" because I think it comes across as being fairly pretentious. Those businesses do want your money, after all. They just don't want your guns on their private property, and that is their prerogative and right as well.

I agree. I don’t see stores that post signs as being against guns or permit holders, unless I know that to be the case. In my opinion civil liability is the problem. The law needs to remove the liability of a business owner and put it squarely on the shoulders of the shooter or the bad guy, where it belongs. But of course the lawyers will never allow that to happen because they can’t get as big a payday from a dirt bag or a permit holder as they can from a business.

[DaveTN]

Nor will I advocate that you open carry. If you aren't comfortable with it, then don't do it.

<O:p</O:p

I don’t have a problem with the legality of open carry. It is legal according to the state Attorney Generals opinion.

My own personal opinion on it (Which means nothing) is that it was not specifically addressed in the law to protect those that carry concealed from being arrested if their weapons were accidentally exposed. If this becomes an issue I doubt that the results will be good. In Kansas open carry is legal, but cities can ban it by city ordnance. It is my understanding exposing a concealed weapon in Wichita carries a $2500 fine and loss of the weapon. (I don’t know that to be fact, I read it on the internet)

What stops Metro from banning open carry or making laws that would cause you to be arrested if your concealed weapon was exposed?

Maybe it is because I was under Illinois law for so long, maybe it is because I’m a realist, but I don’t see the benefit of making it an issue. Poking a dog with a stick can certainly be fun on an internet forum, but in real life it may not be such a good idea.

With that said this may be a non-issue. I have been in Tennessee for 10 years and I have only seen someone carrying openly one time and he was an off duty cop.

<O:p</O:p