Come on baby,

[Guest FroggyOne2]

I didn't make the last match.. I had a few set backs.. and was trying to get ready for Perry.. which I did make at the last minute.. I will be at the next one in Sept .. private message me if you like with your number.. I will call you..

[TK47]

I really am curious, where does one shoot 1000yds in the eastern half on TN?

Northeast to Southwest or vice versa.

TK47

(Former long term East Tenneseean)

[Guest FroggyOne2]

OH. you had to be cute didn't you.

[Guest GunTroll]

Wrong. it is the length and the sectional density of the bullet.

For twist? Are you talking hunting or target?

Found this but you probably all ready know it. This may be for the original poster more than you.

The twist rate of the barrel determines the best bullet weight for your gun and is the single, most important factor for rifle accuracy (see included twist rate chart). The manufacturer cuts the rifling to a twist rate that will stabilize the bullet designed and tested for that cartridge. The smaller the bore diameter, the more difficult it is to stabilize a bullet. Heavy bullets cannot be driven to the same velocities as lighter bullets in the same barrel, so they are also not spinning as fast leaving the muzzle and may not stabilize down range. Bullet spin is a product of twist rate and velocity. A sure sign of a bullet not spinning fast enough is a target with oval or keyhole hits. Using a light bullet in a fast twist rate barrel may cause the bullet to skip across the rifling and literally file itself, thus larger groups. Excess copper residue in the barrel is a clue. Try to duplicate factory loads. They have been extensively tested for best results. Matching the bullet weight to the twist rate and velocity is essential for accuracy. If you need a heavier bullet than your twist rate will handle, you are probably using the wrong rifle.

Bullet parameters: Besides weight, there are five measurements that should be considered when selecting a bullet. Sectional Density: A weight to length ratio measurement. The longer and heavier the bullet, the higher the sectional density thus the deeper it will penetrate. This parameter is not important for target and varmint loads but is very important for game hunting loads. Ballistic Coefficient (BC): The higher the BC, the more aerodynamic the bullet, thus it will drop less at long ranges and will be less affected by cross winds. Due to air density, small diameter bullets such as a .224” typically have poor BCs. 6mm bullets and larger start getting higher BCs. A BC of .400 is considered very good, .500 and higher is excellent. Balance: All rifle bullets are heavier in the rear than the front and therefore are naturally unstable. The more balanced, the more stable it will be. Bore Surface is the length of the bullet that actually touches the bore. The longer the bore surface, the more it dampens effects from bullet jump shock and the more stable the bullet will be going down the barrel. This parameter is very important for accuracy. Ogive is the point on the nose where the bullet first measures full diameter. This important parameter will dictate bullet seating depth, bullet jump and cartridge overall length. All bullets must be seated at optimum depth for best accuracy. This usually occurs where the ogive is .010” from the rifled bore.

Conclusion: Analyze before loading. Always stay within the bullet weight intended for your twist rate. Try to select a bullet with the longest bore surface, best balanced, shortest ogive to tip measurement, highest ballistic coefficient, and best sectional density, in that order. A good place to start is a boat tail with a blunt nose or hollow point. Most reloading manuals list BC, sectional density, and have pictures of bullets so you can compare important parameters. Don’t skimp on bullets; buy the best quality you can find. Most bullets sold in bulk packs are not uniform weight. Stay with boxes of 100. Use a Bullet Depth Gauge to determine proper bullet seating depth. Bullet Depth Gauges are available from Cactus Tactical in all cartridges with .224, 7mm, and .308 diameter bullets. These tools are very easy to use and come with simple instructions. Unfortunately, they are only available for guns with direct in-line chamber access such as a bolt action, single shot, AR-15, etc.

Next in Series: Long Range Shooting Secrets: Powder Tips.

Rifle Twist Rates

Caliber Twist Rate Bullet Weight

.172 1:10 all weights

.222 Rim Fire 1:16 all weights, lead bullets

.224 / 5.56mm 1:16 up to 55 grains, 4300 fps or more

1:15 up to 55 grains, 4100 – 4300 fps

1:14 up to 55 grains, less than 4100 fps

1:12 55 – 63 grains

1:9 63 – 70 grains

1:8 70 grains or more

.243 / 6mm 1:15 up to 70 grains

1:14 70 - 75 grains

1:13 75 – 85 grains

1:12 85 – 100 grains

1:10 100 grains or more

.257 1:14 up to 70 grains

1:13 70 – 80 grains

1:12 80 – 90 grains

1:10 90 – 100 grains

1:9 100 grains or more

.264 / 6.5 mm 1:9 up to 130 grains

1:8 130 grains or more

.270 1:10 all weights

.284 / 7mm 1:11 up to 140 grains

1:10 Magnum velocities

1:9.5 140 grains or more

.308 / 7.62mm 1:15 up to 150 grains

1:14 150 – 168 grains

1:12 168 – 170 grains

1:10 170 – 220 grains

1:8 220 grains or more

.311 / 7.65 mm 1:10 all weights

.321 1:16 all weights

.323 / 8mm 1:10 all weights

.338 1:10 all weights

.348 1:12 all weights

.358 1:12 all weights

.375 1:12 all weights

.411 1:14 all weights

.416 1:14 all weights

.429 1:38 all weights

.458 1:20 all weights up to 2000 fps

1:14 all weights above 2000 fps

Edited August 26, 2009 by GunTroll

[Guest Mugster]

For twist?

Yes. For example, you can shoot the 70gr speer semi-spitzer I think they call it out of a 1 in 12 twist .223 barrel. Like the old m16A1 style upper. You can do that because it is a short and fat bullet, basically.

A longer bullet, like a hpbt of really any weight is really long. So like a 69gr bthp bullet in .223 requires probably around a 1 in 9 twist to spin it enough to stab it. Never work in a 1 in 12.

I know less about what it takes in .30 caliber for popular weights/bullet designs because all my tubes are 1 in 10. In case I ever need to load something big like a 220 for a moose or something.

[Guest GunTroll]

I'm not buying it. I'll research some more but thanks for the example.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

I'm not buying it. I'll research some more but thanks for the example.

You can do that.. not buy it.. but he is telling you the truth.. you have a lot to learn my friend.. I don't know near enough.. but after shooting "Highpower" for the last 10 years.. and being ranked NRA "Master" in National Match and NRA "High Master" in Long Range (1000 Yards), I believe I know what works and what don't.

[TK47]

"OH. you had to be cute didn't you."

Sorry, didn't have anything technical to add, but felt the need to contribute. Cute is all I had.

TK47

[Guest FroggyOne2]

LOL.. I hear ya brother!

[Guest GunTroll]

You can do that.. not buy it.. but he is telling you the truth.. you have a lot to learn my friend.. I don't know near enough.. but after shooting "Highpower" for the last 10 years.. and being ranked NRA "Master" in National Match and NRA "High Master" in Long Range (1000 Yards), I believe I know what works and what don't.

Well perhaps on another thread so not to hijack this one....... Please educate or post some links that will educate not just me but perhaps other people. I don't know all. Never claimed to. I do however have a desire to learn. So please don't be so condescending and educate if you don't mind.

Also thanks for the your credentials even though no one asked for them. Probably just proves my statement of being condescending.

[broylz]

i have done alot of research on long range shooting from SnipersParadise.com/sniperchat and Snipershide.com/forum

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Log In

6mmBR.com -- Best Guide to 6mm BR Rifle Shooting and 6BR Reloading

Applied Ballistics, LLC

Barrel Harmonics Mode Shape Movies

Rifle Barrel Tuner Vibration Analysis

Stolle Panda Bolt Stress and Deflection Analysis

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/windreading.html

http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm

http://www.jbmballistics.com/

http://www.saami.org/

Edited August 27, 2009 by FroggyOne2

[Guest FroggyOne2]

There ya go Troll.. a lil snippit... the rest is up to you my friend.

[Guest GunTroll]

Those are some good ones! I allways liked 6mm br.

[Guest Mugster]

Well perhaps on another thread so not to hijack this one....... Please educate or post some links that will educate not just me but perhaps other people. I don't know all. Never claimed to. I do however have a desire to learn. So please don't be so condescending and educate if you don't mind.

Also thanks for the your credentials even though no one asked for them. Probably just proves my statement of being condescending.

It really depends on what you want to do and your experience level. If you don't handload, any discussion about the speer 70gr in .223 is purely academic. You can't buy loaded ammo with that bullet unless you pay a custom reloading house $10 a shot to load some for you. In .22-250 with that bullet, a 1 in 14 twist will work or so I understand out to at least 500 yards. So ordering a box of bullets from midway and trying them out in a 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 twist is an afternoon and what, about $35 in bullets/powder/primers?

Second, I'm not a benchrester. My interest in it starts waning at ranges must past 400-500 yards, because under field conditions, I'm not going to try to force a shot on an animal much past that.

The point is, its just a different perspective on things, and how much you want to get involved. The best way to learn how to shoot small groups at 1000 yards is to go hang out with the guys that do it and invest in a solid rig to learn with. Its equipment intensive (optics, barrel, handloading setup, etc) and I'd guess froggy has more in it than he does his cars.

The same thing goes with a hunting rig. The application and the requirements are different. Learning how to estimate range or putting some money into a laser is probably more important than your rifle, which if it shoots a consistent 10 shots into 1.25 MOA at 100 yards is totally fine for big game out to 500 yards. The cold bore shot is nearly everything. And the bullet has to be able to be able to actually do something at its terminal velocity when it hits. Which probably means you need a magnum. And you might have to lug it around for a few miles, so weight is also a factor. You got to know when to shoot too. Thats the biggest problem at range for a hunter when you are on the trigger.

I like this site here for some of the info, but dislike the commercial flavor.

LongRangeHunting.com

There are many, many books on shooting out there. You'll probably want to start a collection. Here's one I could recommend to get started with for long range:

Hunter's Guide to Long-Range Shooting: Amazon.ca: Wayne Van Zwoll: Books

You might want to start with just basic rifle shooting in the classic positions with iron sights and using a sling and shooting sticks. A good 25-50 round workout at a range once a week that includes dry firing and position practice goes a long way towards building some skill and quickness with a rifle. It don't come easy. Froggy can really hook you up here, shooting some NRA highpower will get you dialed in.

Anyway, good luck.

[Guest GunTroll]

Thanks Mugster,

That is how someone should speak/type to someone who has questions and a desire to learn. You took the time to type out some stuff that you have learned along your way to the skill level you have achieved without coming off arrogant or condescending.

I myself am a Gunsmith. I have a degree from the Colorado School of trades. I am ex-military with a back ground in small arms repair. I have built many custom rifles all around the bolt action. Tactical,benchrest,hunting ,varmint,etc. I have been reloading for a relatively short time (almost two years) and have great interest in ballistics and always want to learn something new that I just simply do not know or overlooked.

I have been talking to my friends around the industry. Many of them current instructors at CST and gunsmiths around the country. Sectional density has been overwhelmingly been referred to as the very last thing to consider when selecting a twist rate for a barrel or rifle that one is considering to have made or just one to purchase of the shelf. Rather SD, is more towards the top of the important list when considering bullet selection for hunting purpose's. With that being said.......my mentor and close friend who is the machine shop instructor at CST said perhaps the "benchresters" have learned something different in there abundant time spent at a range. This is what I'm thinking as well. So.......

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Troll, I am not the most eloquent in terms of words.. but if want some help and I can work it out.. I would be willing.. I am always there for the shooter whom wants to learn sport shooting.. of any kind.. it is just that I do favor NRA "Highpower" type shooting.. one of the quickest ways.. to learning good shooting is with a smallbore rifle.. They don't have any forgivness and will teach you alot!

[Guest GunTroll]

Nevermind. I'm beating a dead horse.

Edited August 28, 2009 by GunTroll
beating a dead horse

[Guest GunTroll]

Troll, I am not the most eloquent in terms of words.. but if want some help and I can work it out.. I would be willing.. I am always there for the shooter whom wants to learn sport shooting.. of any kind.. it is just that I do favor NRA "Highpower" type shooting.. one of the quickest ways.. to learning good shooting is with a smallbore rifle.. They don't have any forgivness and will teach you alot!

Thanks man. I very interested in working out some of my self built rifles here in TN. I'm new to the state and see your range that you go to seems to be a good one. Its a bit far for me. 2.5 hrs away. But you never know. I might just come down one day. I'm working on a 22-250 AI as we speak. I'm more into tight groups at modest ranges than punching paper at 1000. If I ever come over I'll love to meet you and take a few shots with you.

[Guest Mugster]

Thanks Mugster,

That is how someone should speak/type to someone who has questions and a desire to learn. You took the time to type out some stuff that you have learned along your way to the skill level you have achieved without coming off arrogant or condescending.

I myself am a Gunsmith. I have a degree from the Colorado School of trades. I am ex-military with a back ground in small arms repair. I have built many custom rifles all around the bolt action. Tactical,benchrest,hunting ,varmint,etc. I have been reloading for a relatively short time (almost two years) and have great interest in ballistics and always want to learn something new that I just simply do not know or overlooked.

I have been talking to my friends around the industry. Many of them current instructors at CST and gunsmiths around the country. Sectional density has been overwhelmingly been referred to as the very last thing to consider when selecting a twist rate for a barrel or rifle that one is considering to have made or just one to purchase of the shelf. Rather SD, is more towards the top of the important list when considering bullet selection for hunting purpose's. With that being said.......my mentor and close friend who is the machine shop instructor at CST said perhaps the "benchresters" have learned something different in there abundant time spent at a range. This is what I'm thinking as well. So.......

I got interested in it back in about 97 and bought a remington sendero 7mm rem mag as my across the beanfield rifle. I experimented off and on with it over the years out to 600 yards, and have dropped a few deer at distance and a few in pretty close. Its also pretty entertaining on groundhog with a 100gr hp running about 3500 fps. I don't have any glass on it right now...I got bit by the .223 bug 4 or 5 years ago and haven't looked up since, except to mess with .308 a little. I picked up an R25 last spring to fool around with.

Well, in terms of twist rate, for a shooter like me, its not all that important. Either I have enough spin to stabilize a bullet I want to shoot or I don't. It could be there is an "optimal twist" for a particular bullet. I'm not sure how much I care unless it starts keyholing on me. It could also be I could spin a bullet too fast and have it fly apart when it comes out of the barrel. Well...guess i can't use those.

My buddy has a 1 in 8 twist ar upper that can shoot better with nearly every bullet we've tested than my 1 in 9 twist upper. Which includes stuff down in the 45gr range up to 75gr stuff, and lots of stuff in the middle. The most accurate bullet we've tested is the nosler 55gr btsp. It just works well to 300-400 yards which is our max groundhogging distance.

The reason is his barrel is better than mine. He's a slightly better shot on a good day, maybe. But I do have my moments. It doesn't have anything to do with the twist rate.

I'd hazard a guess that unless you are very very disciplined and shoot very large groups (and do some math stuff on the results) or shoot at extreme range, you'll never tell the difference in bullet accuracy by varying the twist rate keeping everything else the same.

Item number one in terms of accuracy is using a quality bullet as long as you have enough spin to stabilize it. Number 2 is a quality rifle. Everything else comes after that, and you get diminishing returns. Well, and then there's the fruitloop pulling the trigger, thats the biggest potential problem area.

[Guest GunTroll]

Reviving this thread for the purpose of conceding to the SD factor in selecting twist. I still feel its a "six to one , half dozen to the other" situation but still relevant. Got an Email from someone in the know on the matter......

GT,

They go hand in hand. Longer bullets are heavier, have higher SD, are harder to stabilize, and require faster twist.

Lighter bullets are shorter, have lower SD, are easier to stabilize, and require slower twist.

The above trends hold as long as you’re dealing with typical bullet materials (copper & lead). If you use more or less dense material, the same trends hold, but you can’t compare those bullets to bullets made from other materials.

Hope this makes sense.

If you have a specific stability question for a particular bullet and twist, I’ll be happy to answer it.

Also, I’m attaching a stability calculator that you can play around with to get an idea of how length, weight, caliber, twist rate, velocity and atmospherics affect stability.

Have fun,

-Bryan

Bryan Litz

Ballistician

Berger Bullets

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Yes.. Brran is in the know.. I have had several conversations with him .. in person.. not only is Bryan very knowledged in Ballistics.. he used to help design missles for the Military. I would pay very close attention to what Bryan has to say about bullet design.

And he is right.. you must compare apples to apples. I would say that the most interesting debate going in bullet comparison is with the palma bullet made by different makers.

Which brings something up.. now that in palma, the .223 is recognized as an official palma round.. I wonder how many will start using it. With the 80 and 90 grain bullets.. are at least on paper.. ballisticly the same as the 155 gr .308 palma bullet. Less cost all the way around.. in the Spirit of America palma matches just held at Raton, I believe that there were two that finished in the top ten.

Oh by the way, Bryan Litz, author of Applied Ballistics for Long-Range Shooting, proved he has the trigger-pulling skills to match his technical knowledge. At the 2009 Spirit of America Nat’l Fullbore Prone Championship, Bryan put on a clinic, winning most of the individual fullbore matches, and leading his “Palma Red” Team to victory in the Cunico Team Match, Folsom Team Match, Sierra Team Match, and Galaxy Team Match. The “Palma Red” Team was ably coached by Steve Cunico. Bryan’s fellow “Palma Red” shooters on the team were David Crandall, Trudie Fay, and Noma Mayo, all of whom shot great. Congratulations to Coach Cunico, Bryan, and all the Palma Red team members.

Bryan Litz also lead the pack in all the individual Aggregate standings — Short Agg, Long Agg, and Grand Agg (1793-121X). Finishing second in Individual Grand Agg was Mitchell Maxberry (1788-108X), and Nancy Tompkins took third (1787-112X). Charles Ballard (2008 F-Class Nat’l Champ) was the overall top shooter in F-Class with a 1775-94X. Second-place finisher Danny Biggs (1770-83X)(Danny is from Huntsville, Al and was the 2008 F/TR National Champion) edged Larry Batholome (1769-103X) by one point, but Larry had the high X-count among F-Classers. Keep in mind that F-Class targets have smaller scoring rings than the full-bore targets.

There must be some good info in Bryan’s Ballistics book, because Bryan seemed to have an edge over all the other shooters at the SOA this year. Litz started strong and stayed strong throughout the week, winning three of four individual events. USAR Shooter Russel Theurer (From Memphis, Tn) captured the Sinclair Int’l Individual Match with a strong 449-24X performance. Russ observed: “It’s interesting to see that every day’s Match was won with the Berger 155.5 bullet”. Complete results of the 2009 SOA can be found on the Bald Eagles Rifle Club website.