Calling a lawyer after a self defense situation

[Guest pjblurton]

I've also got DoubleAfterSplit's number on the back of my attorney's biz card...

I programmed Patricks office / fax and address into my cellphone when I first read this thread!

[Im Neero]

THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH, RIGHT THERE.

And for what it's worth, and it should be worth quite a bit given that I paid $250 to hear it in a class, there are current law enforcement officers on this forum who also teach civilian defensive firearms classes and they recommend the exact same thing.

Keep your mouth shut! You will get to spend some time in the jail cell, but that's just part of the game. ANYTHING that you say can and will be used against you. It's better to sit quietly in the jail cell and allow someone far more skilled at the game (i.e. your attorney) to do the talking for you.

Anyone who does it any other way is a damn fool and I don't care how many people that rubs wrong. Part of carrying a handgun for self defense is accepting that if you ever have to use it, the cops will get involved and that you will have to spend a little time under their care while the facts of the event are sorted out.

If you can't handle that, then you don't need to be carrying a gun!

Your statement on the scene should be no more, no less than:

1. Officer I was in fear for my life and/or the lives of my family members.
   
2. Point out any relevant evidence. (The knife, gun, axe, chainsaw, etc. that the attacker was using is located there.)
   
3. My firearm is located [give location] and is [loaded/unloaded]. Please secure it.
   
4. I will gladly make a statement to assist your investigation, but only after I have my attorney present.
   

Optionally, #6 -- I don't feel well and request that you call an ambulance and have me taken to the hospital immediately. I'm afraid that I may be having a panic attack, heart attack, etc.

That's quite simply not true. There are news stories about justified shootings in Memphis all the time, and I have never heard of anyone spending any time in jail for it. If that's part of the game to you, then you're playing it wrong.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Im Neero
For anyone that can't scroll up 3 posts for context.

[TGO David]

That's quite simply not true. There are news stories about justified shootings in Memphis all the time, and I have never heard of anyone spending any time in jail for it. If that's part of the game to you, then you're playing it wrong.

How many of those stories stated whether or not the justified shooter made a statement to the police? I think you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, or you're just not thinking it through.

You're basing your disagreement with me on what you have read in the paper. Second hand information at best. More likely third hand. I'm basing mine on what two police officers told a class full of students. Officers who do this stuff on a daily basis.

Edit...

Furthermore, my statement that you will spend some time in jail is in respect to the practice of keeping silent beyond what I outlined. If you keep your mouth shut until your attorney is present, you will spend time in jail. If you talk, you might not. Or you might not until the DA gets hold of your case and decides to make you an example for political reasons.

ANOTHER EDIT...

And if you're going to quote me, quote the whole damn thing and don't edit it to fit your purposes. I had to go back and make sure I hadn't omitted part of my thoughts when I typed it out, and lo and behold I hadn't. You just chose to post the portion that made your argument seem sensible.

The original statement was this:

Keep your mouth shut! You will get to spend some time in the jail cell, but that's just part of the game. ANYTHING that you say can and will be used against you. It's better to sit quietly in the jail cell and allow someone far more skilled at the game (i.e. your attorney) to do the talking for you.

You conveniently omitted everything in red. That sort of fact-skewing is what puts good people in prison for an otherwise clean shoot, and is why I don't make statements without an attorney present. It is also why anything you read in the paper should be taken with a spoonful of skepticism. Quotes are easily shortened or reworded to take on completely new meanings, as evidenced by the sort of crap you just pulled there.

[EXPLETIVE] !!!!!

[Im Neero]

I've taken classes from former and active duty law enforcement officers as well. Officers that do this stuff on a daily basis.

Yes, most of the cases that I mentioned involved the shooter making a statement to the police, who promptly let them go on about their business. At least one of them wasn't even a good shoot in my opinion. It involved an elderly man selling fruit in the parking lot of a bank shooting a robber as he left the bank to get into his car. Another one involved a man who chased a car-jacker that had just robbed his mother across state lines. Neither of these men were held in jail.

If your plan involves definitely spending time in jail, it may not be the best plan.

Edit: I didn't edit your quote to change the meaning, I edited it to make it clear what statement of yours that I take issue with. Even with what you included in red, it in no way changes the fact that you think spending time in jail is inevitable.

When I make a post I make it under the assumption that people have already read your statement, and don't need the entire thing moved down the screen to understand what's going on, but apparently that's too much to assume on here.

I will include the entire post from now on when I quote you.

From now on when you cite a source for anything I'm looking forward to see whether or not you quote the entire source. I somehow doubt you won't, but I guess it's ok when you do it.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Im Neero

[TGO David]

If your plan involves definitely spending time in jail, it may not be the best plan.

I will never understand people who think that spending 24-48 hrs sitting in the local clink while they wait to speak with their attorney is such a horrible outcome.

Comparing the wait to make a statement after getting legal counsel, to the potential risk of spending the next 20 years behind bars with a permanent felony record because you misspoke, or couldn't accurately remember the exact facts of the encounter because you were completely jacked up on adrenaline, etc... it seems like the obvious, prudent choice is to express your desire to cooperate after you see your attorney, and then keep your mouth shut.

But I'm sure your experience at 23 years of age far outweighs that of the vast number of professional law enforcement officers cum personal defense trainers / expert witnesses / legal consultants who agree with what I've said.

Ultimately, it's your life sport. If you want to risk it because of an overwhelming need for catharsis after a good shoot, then tell the nice officers all about it. You've got a 50% chance it will go well for you.

You also have a 50% chance it won't.

[Im Neero]

I will never understand people who think that spending 24-48 hrs sitting in the local clink while they wait to speak with their attorney is such a horrible outcome.

Comparing the wait to make a statement after getting legal counsel, to the potential risk of spending the next 20 years behind bars with a permanent felony record because you misspoke, or couldn't accurately remember the exact facts of the encounter because you were completely jacked up on adrenaline, etc... it seems like the obvious, prudent choice is to express your desire to cooperate after you see your attorney, and then keep your mouth shut.

But I'm sure your experience at 23 years of age far outweighs that of the vast number of professional law enforcement officers cum personal defense trainers / expert witnesses / legal consultants who agree with what I've said.

Ultimately, it's your life sport. If you want to risk it because of an overwhelming need for catharsis after a good shoot, then tell the nice officers all about it. You've got a 50% chance it will go well for you.

You also have a 50% chance it won't.

50/50? Where on god's green earth did you get that number? Please don't tell me you're one of those people that believes that in any given situation with two possible outcomes the odds are equal that either one will occur?

I see you conveniently missed the part of my post where I said that I also have taken classes and focused in on my age. If you're going to dismiss the experience of those that I have learned from and focus on me personally, I'll do the same. How many people have you shot in self-defense? Did you give a statement? Are you in jail? I'm guessing your life experience doesn't give you any more perspective on the matter than mine does.

Lawyers aren't magicians, either. Calling a lawyer does not ensure that you will walk free. Hell, a perfectly good shoot doesn't even ensure that you will walk free. Having a good lawyer look over your statement will probably push the odds in your favor, but the same DA that wants to make an example of you for political can still get you.

Edit: You didn't quote my entire post, therefore you can't read newspapers.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Im Neero

[TGO David]

And for the record...

If some miscreant breaks into my house and I shoot him dead inside my house, when the police arrived I would probably say something like this:

Officer, the deceased broke into my house. He was uninvited, I was in for for my life and that of my family so I shot him. My firearm is in my holster on my right hip and is loaded. I am more than willing to cooperate with your investigation but I insist on speaking to my attorney first for my own sake. That is all that I am willing to say about this shooting until I have my attorney present.

Chances are, a good cop will recognize the situation for what it is and my statement included enough information to clarify that it was a self-defense shooting and I was the victim of a crime in progress. The officer may at his or her discretion elect to take me to the police station for detainment until such time that they receive a statement from me via my attorney or with my attorney present.

They would be well within their rights to take me in. I've just killed a person, be it in self-defense or not. Perhaps they will elect to let me stay at home with my family and then come make a statement later. Perhaps not. Either way, they aren't getting anything more than that from me without my attorney's involvement.

Shooting the guy who was attacking me or my family in this situation was Part 1 of the protection of my loved ones. Protecting us from loss of freedom (mine), loss of income (mine), loss of home and property (ours) and from incarceration (mine) is Part 2 of the self-defense plan.

Part 2 is my attorney presenting the facts in a light favorable to the case that it was a justified shoot and keeping ME out of prison.

Anyone who fails to think about Part 2 is setting up a potentially bad scenario. You just took care of your and your family's immediate health and well being by using deadly force to protect them. Why are you failing to do the same regarding your legal well being?

[Im Neero]

And for the record...

If some miscreant breaks into my house and I shoot him dead inside my house, when the police arrived I would probably say something like this:

Officer, the deceased broke into my house. He was uninvited, I was in for for my life and that of my family so I shot him. My firearm is in my holster on my right hip and is loaded. I am more than willing to cooperate with your investigation but I insist on speaking to my attorney first for my own sake. That is all that I am willing to say about this shooting until I have my attorney present.

Chances are, a good cop will recognize the situation for what it is and my statement included enough information to clarify that it was a self-defense shooting and I was the victim of a crime in progress. The officer may at his or her discretion elect to take me to the police station for detainment until such time that they receive a statement from me via my attorney or with my attorney present.

They would be well within their rights to take me in. I've just killed a person, be it in self-defense or not. Perhaps they will elect to let me stay at home with my family and then come make a statement later. Perhaps not. Either way, they aren't getting anything more than that from me without my attorney's involvement.

Shooting the guy who was attacking me or my family in this situation was Part 1 of the protection of my loved ones. Protecting us from loss of freedom (mine), loss of income (mine), loss of home and property (ours) and from incarceration (mine) is Part 2 of the self-defense plan.

Part 2 is my attorney presenting the facts in a light favorable to the case that it was a justified shoot and keeping ME out of prison.

Anyone who fails to think about Part 2 is setting up a potentially bad scenario. You just took care of your and your family's immediate health and well being by using deadly force to protect them. Why are you failing to do the same regarding your legal well being?

You'll probably be stuttering at the time you speak to the police, but you didn't have to mistype to get that point across.

So now going to jail isn't something that's going to happen, it's just something they have the right to do? You're well on your way to a reasonable position there, sport

[TGO David]

50/50? Where on god's green earth did you get that number? Please don't tell me you're one of those people that believes that in any given situation with two possible outcomes the odds are equal that either one will occur?

You either will go to jail or you won't go to jail. Did you pull some third option that none of us know about straight from your ass? Is the third option that you will be exiled into the barren wasteland to wander the rest of your life? Does it involve foot rubs and ice cream cones?

What in the name of all that's good and holy is the 3rd option??? I'm waiting with baited breath!!!

I see you conveniently missed the part of my post where I said that I also have taken classes and focused in on my age. If you're going to dismiss the experience of those that I have learned from and focus on me personally, I'll do the same.

I didn't ignore anything. And for that matter, you conveniently ignored the accusation that you are a quote-****er. You know, someone that ****s with people's quotes to make them suit their own agendas.

That's wonderful that you have taken a class or two. AWESOME. Now go back and talk to your instructors and find out if they advocate telling the police everything you know on the scene, immediately following a good shoot. If they do, demand a refund. If they don't, you need to pay closer attention next time so that you're getting your money's worth.

And don't mind the age thing. I was a 23 year old know-it-all once and I grew up and realized that half the **** I thought I knew back then, I didn't. Now that I'm 36, I have successfully weeded out a lot of misinformation and am more confident that what I know now is actually pretty ****ing accurate.

By the time I'm 60, I should be a god damned genius.

How many people have you shot in self-defense? Did you give a statement? Are you in jail? I'm guessing your life experience doesn't give you any more perspective on the matter than mine does.

I have family who has spent time in prison because they cooperated a little too much. Does that count?

Lawyers aren't magicians, either. Calling a lawyer does not ensure that you will walk free. Hell, a perfectly good shoot doesn't even ensure that you will walk free. Having a good lawyer look over your statement will probably push the odds in your favor, but the same DA that wants to make an example of you for political can still get you.

My lawyer has an amazing ability to pull people's asses out of the fire so I'd say he is pretty magical. The DA isn't some all-powerful being. He has to make a case against you and has to make that case stick. Do you want to go up against him alone or do you want a competent attorney on your side?

That's the choice here, sport. Go it alone and make a big statement to the police at 2am while some guy's laying face down in a puddle of blood on your kitchen floor, or play it safe and get a pro on your side before you start running your mouth.

Call me a wimp, but I'm going to go with the attorney.

[Im Neero]

You either will go to jail or you won't go to jail. Did you pull some third option that none of us know about straight from your ass? Is the third option that you will be exiled into the barren wasteland to wander the rest of your life? Does it involve foot rubs and ice cream cones?

What in the name of all that's good and holy is the 3rd option??? I'm waiting with baited breath!!!

I didn't ignore anything. And for that matter, you conveniently ignored the accusation that you are a quote-****er. You know, someone that ****s with people's quotes to make them suit their own agendas.

That's wonderful that you have taken a class or two. AWESOME. Now go back and talk to your instructors and find out if they advocate telling the police everything you know on the scene, immediately following a good shoot. If they do, demand a refund. If they don't, you need to pay closer attention next time so that you're getting your money's worth.

And don't mind the age thing. I was a 23 year old know-it-all once and I grew up and realized that half the **** I thought I knew back then, I didn't. Now that I'm 36, I have successfully weeded out a lot of misinformation and am more confident that what I know now is actually pretty ****ing accurate.

By the time I'm 60, I should be a god damned genius.

I have family who has spent time in prison because they cooperated a little too much. Does that count?

My lawyer has an amazing ability to pull people's asses out of the fire so I'd say he is pretty magical. The DA isn't some all-powerful being. He has to make a case against you and has to make that case stick. Do you want to go up against him alone or do you want a competent attorney on your side?

That's the choice here, sport. Go it alone and make a big statement to the police at 2am while some guy's laying face down in a puddle of blood on your kitchen floor, or play it safe and get a pro on your side before you start running your mouth.

Call me a wimp, but I'm going to go with the attorney.

Could you please go back and find where I advocated telling the police everything on the scene?

There is a 50/50 chance that the world will careen into the sun this evening at 6:00 o'clock. It either will happen or it won't. Any third options? I recommend playing the lottery, because by your calculations the odds are looking pretty darn good.

You've already conceded that going to jail isn't a certainty, so I've made my point. You have backed off of your statement that "

THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH, RIGHT THERE.

And for what it's worth, and it should be worth quite a bit given that I paid $250 to hear it in a class, there are current law enforcement officers on this forum who also teach civilian defensive firearms classes and they recommend the exact same thing.

Keep your mouth shut! You will get to spend some time in the jail cell, but that's just part of the game. ANYTHING that you say can and will be used against you. It's better to sit quietly in the jail cell and allow someone far more skilled at the game (i.e. your attorney) to do the talking for you.

Anyone who does it any other way is a damn fool and I don't care how many people that rubs wrong. Part of carrying a handgun for self defense is accepting that if you ever have to use it, the cops will get involved and that you will have to spend a little time under their care while the facts of the event are sorted out.

If you can't handle that, then you don't need to be carrying a gun!

Your statement on the scene should be no more, no less than:

1. Officer I was in fear for my life and/or the lives of my family members.
   
2. Point out any relevant evidence. (The knife, gun, axe, chainsaw, etc. that the attacker was using is located there.)
   
3. My firearm is located [give location] and is [loaded/unloaded]. Please secure it.
   
4. I will gladly make a statement to assist your investigation, but only after I have my attorney present.
   

Optionally, #6 -- I don't feel well and request that you call an ambulance and have me taken to the hospital immediately. I'm afraid that I may be having a panic attack, heart attack, etc.

"

is erroneous, and we all know it. Even you admitted it. I would quote where you admitted it, but then this post would get really impossible to read seeing as anything less than quoting your entire post results in accusations of being a ******** or whatever it is you were trying to say under those stars on this family-friendly board you run here.

Also, please find where I said a) you shouldn't go to an attorney, you're a wimp if you go to an attorney, c) that I will tell the police everything, as mentioned above, and d) that the DA is an all powerful being.

And no, having family doesn't count. 23 year olds have families too, but apparently the only credit you want to give me is based on things I have actually experienced first-hand, so that's all the courtesy I am going to extend to you.

[TGO David]

So now going to jail isn't something that's going to happen, it's just something they have the right to do? You're well on your way to a reasonable position there, sport

Whether or not you go to jail after you inform the police that you're going to keep your mouth shut is up to them. Whether or not you stay there for a long piece of your life is up to the court and will depend in some degree to what you said when you had diarrhea of the mouth.

As I have said before, and as you seem to be intent on ignoring, you need to resign yourself to the following facts:

• Exercising your right to remain silent may land you temporarily in jail.
  

• Exercising your right to remain silent is important if you want to give your attorney a chance to review the situation and decide what course of action is in your best interst.
  

• Waiving your right to remain silent could land you in jail for a lot, lot longer.
  

• You need to have these discussions with yourself and decide what you are going to do before you ever decide to strap a firearm onto your person and carry it for your self defense.
  

• If sitting in jail for a few hours train-wrecks the plans for your life, you might want to reconsider carrying a gun. Or at least be willing to take the 50/50 gamble that anything you say to the police (things that can and will be held against you in a court of law) might put you away for a really, really long time no matter how innocent you are.
  

[TGO David]

CI would quote where you admitted it, but then this post would get really impossible to read seeing as anything less than quoting your entire post results in accusations of being a ******** or whatever it is you were trying to say under those stars on this family-friendly board you run here.

That's not the angle you want to take here, jack.

http://www.tncivilsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=469#p3652

[Im Neero]

You still don't understand what I take issue with. I take issue with your notion that (please excuse me if I don't quote the whole thing, at this point everyone knows what I'm referring too.)"you will get to spend some time in a jail cell." Even by insane Tungsten odds, you only have a 50% chance of spending time in a jail cell, and that's even if you shoot at the police when they show up to see what's going on.

P.S. How's the quote searching coming there, champ? I notice that you haven't found any of those ideas that you attributed to me anywhere in my posts yet, it might be because they're not there, but you should go back and check to be sure, there's a 50/50 chance.

[TGO David]

I'm waiting on the 3rd option. If you elect to exercise your right to remain silent, the police will either take you to jail after a self defense shooting, or they won't. That is pretty damn 50/50 to me.

Maybe the 3rd option is that the officers will sit with you on your couch and watch television until your lawyer arrives.

[molonlabetn]

I guess my only take on the matter is that if one doesn't voluntarily participate in an interview, the investigator's only option is to take you involuntarily... so not making a complete statement almost ensures that you will be taken in. However, as mentioned, that is not set in stone... assuming that the responding LEOs have the common sense to determine from the information given in the 911 call, and immediatly upon their arrival, that the person you shot was a mortal danger to you and/or had forcibly entered your domicile. That should be all they have to hear from you right then, really, the basic facts. If that's not enough to help them determine that you are a law-abiding citizen, and the perp (who probably has a rap-sheet already) was the aggressor... then it certainly would be prudent to shut up and go wherever they take you (preferably the ER, first), until your lawyer can catch up to you.

[Im Neero]

I'm waiting on the 3rd option. If you elect to exercise your right to remain silent, the police will either take you to jail after a self defense shooting, or they won't. That is pretty damn 50/50 to me.

Maybe the 3rd option is that the officers will sit with you on your couch and watch television until your lawyer arrives.

Ok, I'll try this a different way. Winning the lottery is 50/50, right?

[TGO David]

Ok, I'll try this a different way. Winning the lottery is 50/50, right?

I've made my case very clearly in this thread already. Until you come back with some explanation of what the 3rd possible outcome is in a justified shoot where you elect to keep your mouth shut (i.e. 1. Get taken to jail, 2. Not taken to jail, 3. ______ ? ) I have nothing further to add.

[Im Neero]

I've made my case very clearly in this thread already. Until you come back with some explanation of what the 3rd possible outcome is in a justified shoot where you elect to keep your mouth shut (i.e. 1. Get taken to jail, 2. Not taken to jail, 3. ______ ? ) I have nothing further to add.

You clearly don't understand statistics. The fact that there are only two possible outcomes does not impart an equal likelihood of occurring to each possibility. For example, if I were to put 10 marbles into a bag, 9 of which were red and one of which was green, I would have a 9 out of 10 chance of pulling out a red marble. In other words, the odds would be 90/10 in favor of pulling out a red marble.

According to your misguided understanding, I would have a 50/50 chance of pulling a green marble out of the bag, since the marble that I chose at random would be either red, or green.

Maybe you should take a class on this, it seems that you have been weeding out some of good information over the years and hanging on to the bad. Your confidence that it's pretty ****ing accurate seems to be somewhat misplaced.

If you are still confused on the subject of odds/probability then the Tennessee Board of Regents offers some good online courses on the subject.

[Oh Shoot]

Ok, I'll try this a different way. Winning the lottery is 50/50, right?

Only in a tautological (exercise in basic logic) sense.

Certainly NOT in a realistic mathematical sense. However, the actual mathematical odds ARE knowable, at least after the fact of the drawing.

On the shooting very much the same:

50% chance of going to jail is the "logical" answer.

But actual odds are not really calculable, as are dependent on many variables, chiefly your behavior and the officers' directives and initial conclusions.

Broad either/or arguments are simplistic and not generally logically defensive. Especially if based on logically indefensible premise.

One of the classics?

"Have you quit beating your wife?"

Hey, either you have or you haven't, right?

- OS

[TGO David]

Only in a tautological (exercise in basic logic) sense.

Certainly NOT in a realistic mathematical sense. However, the actual mathematical odds ARE knowable, at least after the fact of the drawing.

Correct.

Forgive me for failing to more properly state that there are TWO POSSIBLE OUTCOMES. The odds of either happening are contingent upon variables that, while wired to the gills with adrenaline and suffering from post traumatic stress, I am not going to take chances on. That's why my lawyer gets paid the big bucks.

If you are still confused on the subject of odds/probability then the Tennessee Board of Regents offers some good online courses on the subject.

I'll get right on that. If they have a class in common sense, maybe you can enroll and then we can telecommute together.

[Im Neero]

You are correct, sir.

[Im Neero]

Tungsten, I forgive you.

So are you retracting your statement that in the situation in question I have a 50% chance of it not going well for me? (Even though I never did mention what I plan to do in said situation, simply that I did not buy into your "you will spend time in jail"* assertion.)

*NOTE-This is not a direct quote. It was just starting to get really, really wordy with all the quotes, and I'm sure that anyone that has looked through this thread can find the statement that I am referencing. Tungsten said it, I quoted it a bunch, just look around, you'll find it. I do not think that my condensation above changed the meaning of the assertion at all, but to avoid accusations of being a ****ing post ****er, I encourage you to go look it up for yourself and draw your own conclusions as to what was and was not said.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Im Neero
Forgot to close my parentheses, no big deal.

[TGO David]

Tungsten, I forgive you.

So are you retracting your statement that in the situation in question I have a 50% chance of it not going well for me?

I will reword it to state that there are only two possible outcomes. I'll leave the statistics to people who touch themselves at the thought of such things.

[Im Neero]

I'll get right on that. If they have a class in common sense, maybe you can enroll and then we can telecommute together.

I don't know about online, but I am enrolled in an advanced logic class. That sir, was an ad hominem argument, an informal fallacy. It doesn't help the validity of your argument one bit.

[TGO David]

I don't know about online, but I am enrolled in an advanced logic class. That sir, was an ad hominem argument, an informal fallacy. It doesn't help the validity of your argument one bit.

Do they have Humor 101 as an elective? Maybe Advanced Placement Sarcasm?