The TFA?

[TennFire]

Someguy, I'm in the Tri-Cities, not Chattanooga. I tried to get involved at one time, as I've mentioned in prior posts. I was talking about James Magruder Holbrook. Sorry I got his name wrong before. I know you have a good group there in Chattanooga. Morristown does too. But I've started enough groups to know what works and what doesn't. There were mistakes made here that prevented the TFA chapter from getting started.

I took a look at the TFA 2005 tax return at http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2005/621/654/2005-621654693-02978279-9.pdf and a lot can be gleaned from the document. Basically, it appears that John runs the small organization as he chooses. As best I can figure, there are no voting board members or whatever to tell him to go in a different direction. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but no voting members are indicated.

Compare this with the return of the VCDL at http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2005/541/900/2005-541900291-0307c8b4-ZO.pdf

I've been around a while, in fact more than twice your years, and depending on your POV, I''m a silly old fart, or I'm a highly experienced leader. I'll vote for the latter. There have been times when I found a group with the best of intentions had become an impediment to getting work done rather than helping. That includes groups that I have founded. One thing that I always do is make sure the constitution and bylaws of a group set standards of accountability for the officers and ensure that no one becomes a permanent leader. No one makes right decisions all the time and they need others around them to stop them from screwing up.

Again, I think John Harris is well intentioned and a good man. But the TFA is his private club, under his full control. He apparently allows others to belong to but not make decisions. And I think some of the decisions made have been questionable. I doubt that the TFA will ever grow much beyond it's meager membership numbers in its present form and a group trying to pressure legislators to vote their way needs members.

So again, I'll say I'll shut up and good luck to you and the other TFA members. Only reason I posted this was to respond to you. I'll continue to privately lobby our legislative critters as a private citizen. I think that will be more effective for all of us. I'm not sitting on the sidelines and complaining. I've never been one to do that. I'm actually getting things done rather than explaining why I can't do something.

Marswolf,

I realize people will agree or disagree with the decisions that I have made for TFA over the years. That is your right and all I can say is that day in and day out I keep doing it and try to make the right decisions taking a lot of different interests and opinions into consultation.

As for it being my club, if you would look back through the TFALAC alerts over the years, I have made several offers for the membership to come forward and elect a replacement. I am MORE than willing to step aside because I believe that I am a bottleneck in many ways. The fact is no one seems to want the position for a variety of reasons. That has not stopped anyone from saying, "hey John, let me take on part of the work and handle memberships, or newsletters, or outreach, or range training, etc., etc., etc." but no one does.

Several complain about what is wrong or ask questions as indirect attacks but where are such individuals when what TFA needs is responsible individuals to take up the water bucket and help carry the burden?

TFA has grown over the last 12 years and continues to grow. It has frankly grown to the point that it needs a part time if not full time administrator - something I do not have the time to do. Efforts to find that special someone to take on the challenge require, well, time. It is all I can do to maintain status quo.

[Marswolf]

OK. Thanks John.

[Guest David Waldrip]

As best I can figure, there are no voting board members or whatever to tell him to go in a different direction. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but no voting members are indicated.

John, how would TFA members go about requesting a Board of Directors election so that you can get some help?

David

[Guest David Waldrip]

And regarding the issue of open versus concealed carry - I'm very glad that TN permits open carry. That keeps us out of situations of reaching up to the top shelf in the grocery store, accidentally exposing one's weapon, and being charged. A lady at a gun show told me the first part of that example, ie, of her reaching to the top shelf and exposing her weapon. Other shoppers were shocked ("Shocked I tell you!") that she was packing.

As far as tactics, open carry in Shelby County/Memphis Metro will get one killed. At a minimum, you'd be careless to do so. At a maximum, you'd be nuts to do so. In certain areas of town, the odds are very high that you'd end up with a bullet hole in the back of your head, ie, you didn't see them coming. And they did it just to get your gun.

Always maintain your tactical advantage by carrying concealed.

David

[TennFire]

David

If I thought your intentions were in the best interests of TFA I would consider responding publicly on this forum but given many of the accusations and conversations which have taken place off this forum, I am not sure that they are.

Nevertheless, thank you again for all the work you did as the chapter leader of the Shelby County TFA Chapter prior to Pat's succession in that position and good wishes to you as an NRA-EVC.

[Guest David Waldrip]

John, that's fine. We can certainly wait until someone else asks the same question, and that will give you another opportunity to consider responding.

David

[bteague2]

I'm not bitching, I want to get involved even if it's only monetarily but I wanted to know what I was getting involved in. The guy at the show couldn't answer that so I came here knowing some of you would. I'm glad that people were able to clear it up for me.

[DaveTN]

The TFA guy answered one of the questions about open carrying, I think it was about open carrying, with: "You'd have to be an idiot to strap a gun to your hip and walk around in public." Now that struck me odd as the TFA is supposed to be a firearm advocacy group and that sounded pretty anti, if they are going to stand up for gun owner's "rights" shouldn't they stand up for all of them? Because if we give them (anti-gunners) an inch they'll take a mile.

Well first off, you don’t a right to carry a gun in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><ST1:pTennessee</st1:State>; you have a privilege. Also, the Tennessee Attorney General wrote an opinion on open carry because the law is not clear. That does not mean that the legislature won’t tie up any loose ends the next time around.

<O:p</O:p

Just because someone makes the statement "You'd have to be an idiot to strap a gun to your hip and walk around in public." Doesn’t mean they are anti-gun; it may just mean that they don’t want to run the risk of losing the privileges they do have because someone wants to play Rambo. If open carry becomes and issue and is outlawed; you better make sure your “concealed carry” remains absolutely concealed. In my opinion the open carry guys are going to force that to happen.

Open carry is bad…. It’s bad tactically and it’s bad politically. I would expect any gun group that I belonged to to make decisions based on what is best for gun owners.

</O:p

[Guest Hyaloid]

Well first off, you don’t a right to carry a gun in <st1:state><st1>:pTennessee</st1>; you have a privilege. Also, the Tennessee Attorney General wrote an opinion on open carry because the law is not clear. That does not mean that the legislature won’t tie up any loose ends the next time around. </st1:state>

<o></o>

Just because someone makes the statement "You'd have to be an idiot to strap a gun to your hip and walk around in public." Doesn’t mean they are anti-gun; it may just mean that they don’t want to run the risk of losing the privileges they do have because someone wants to play Rambo. If open carry becomes and issue and is outlawed; you better make sure your “concealed carry†remains absolutely concealed. In my opinion the open carry guys are going to force that to happen.

Open carry is bad…. It’s bad tactically and it’s bad politically. I would expect any gun group that I belonged to to make decisions based on what is best for gun owners.

[TGO David]

Open carry is bad…. It’s bad tactically and it’s bad politically. I would expect any gun group that I belonged to to make decisions based on what is best for gun owners.

Well, if it matters... I agree with you. There are only rare occasions where I feel that OC is acceptable. The rest of the time, I like to keep my state of armament concealed.

But... I don't know that the TFA has an official opinion on OC. If it does, I suspect it is similar to what you expressed in that OC is allowed so that we don't lose our carry privileges due to accidental flashing. I doubt that the Attorney General really feels comfortable with the idea of OC as a ritualistic mode of going armed. Other states (Kentucky for example) do not even require a permit for OC, therefore a person has nothing to lose politically speaking if they carry in that mode. But, Tennessee doesn't have those sort of roots so I think it's a totally different issue here.

[Marswolf]

I pretty much agree with what DaveTN said.

Just because someone makes the statement "You'd have to be an idiot to strap a gun to your hip and walk around in public." Doesn’t mean they are anti-gun; it may just mean that they don’t want to run the risk of losing the privileges they do have because someone wants to play Rambo. If open carry becomes and issue and is outlawed; you better make sure your “concealed carry†remains absolutely concealed. In my opinion the open carry guys are going to force that to happen.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that open carry is idiotic, just that it has to be appropriate to the situation (and there are very few situations in public where it is appropriate). But if people keep OCing to force the public to deal with gun issues, the outcome is not going to be that the public becomes comfortable with guns. The outcome in Tennessee will be to return to OC being illegal.

[molonlabetn]

And regarding the issue of open versus concealed carry - I'm very glad that TN permits open carry. That keeps us out of situations of reaching up to the top shelf in the grocery store, accidentally exposing one's weapon, and being charged. A lady at a gun show told me the first part of that example, ie, of her reaching to the top shelf and exposing her weapon. Other shoppers were shocked ("Shocked I tell you!") that she was packing.

As far as tactics, open carry in Shelby County/Memphis Metro will get one killed. At a minimum, you'd be careless to do so. At a maximum, you'd be nuts to do so. In certain areas of town, the odds are very high that you'd end up with a bullet hole in the back of your head, ie, you didn't see them coming. And they did it just to get your gun.

Always maintain your tactical advantage by carrying concealed.

David

Has this actually occurred?

I read alot of speculation about OC here and elsewhere, but no evidence of any detrimental effect by it.

[TGO David]

I read alot of speculation about OC here and elsewhere, but no evidence of any detrimental effect by it.

... yet.

[molonlabetn]

Just like there is no evidence that firearms in general are a detriment to society... yet.

[Marswolf]

"There is nothing so uncommon as a man who possesses common sense."

- Socrates

[molonlabetn]

"I only wish that ordinary people had an unlimited capacity for doing harm; then they might have an unlimited power for doing good." - Socrates

"It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind." - Voltaire

"To be truly radical is to make hope possible rather than despair convincing." - Raymond Williams

[Marswolf]

"A Person's Got To Believe in Something. I Believe I'll Have Another Drink"

- W.C. Fields.

[TennFire]

When I lobby for TFA on the open carry issue I typically approach it from the inverse that it is practically impossible to craft and workable definition of concealment. With that approach, I have successfully defeated at least 2 efforts (one from Senator Haynes several years ago) to require concealment in Tennessee.

When I lecture and teach on the issue of firearms and self-defense, I generally advocate in favor of concealment whenever possible and practical. Civilians are not in law enforcement and do not need to be an open deterrent. Civilians engaged in open carry are, in my opinion, more probable to be a victim at some degree if for example a criminal decides to rob a location and first notices who is openly armed. Criminals, well at least some of them, will act to minimized armed resistance to their actions and this would include targeting/eliminating/disarming individuals who are openly displaying a sidearm. That sidearm is little good if its in the bad guys hands. Personally, I want it where I can get to it without anyone knowing its there until I point it at them.

[dariks]

I pretty much agree with everyone's thoughts on OC'ing. The only time I OC is from my house to my truck in the morning and from my truck into my office. (Yes I'm lucky ).

If I go anywhere else during the day the gun is either concealed or in the truck.

[Guest bluecanary25]

Pardon the intrusion.

After reading through this post, wanting to broaden my interests and knowledge and downloaded more pr0n than I can handle (please insert jokes .... here).

I Think I will attend the next TFA meeting in Oct.

Noticed that a definative time and place has been posted for meeting schedule in Nashville.

I have not been active in protecting my 2A rights, but have been using them.

Maybe it is time I joined the cause or at least get an education and give a helping hand...... $0.02

George

[Guest SomeGuy]

In defense of OC...

Most of the arguments against it are overblown. On top of that, OC is just flat out more comfortable.

Will it cause tighter gun laws? I am not only skeptical of it, but willing to bet against it.

Why? I have open carried around/in front of/while conversing with multiple state Reps and Senators. The idea of more gun control doesn't really thrill any of these guys, unless they are already anti.

I have open carried all over this area. The few people who have noticed have never been concerned. Often times, it is an educational opportunity, and with a nice smile and a friendly face, people relax and realize gun owners aren't nuts. We are just people. IOW, it gets people used to guns in the hands of honest decent people. I have never had a shopkeeper annoyed with my gun, and I have seen more than a few smile when I come in. They have come to equate the guy with a gun, to an honest guy with a gun.

Then there is the criminal argument. The idea that if I open carry in front of them, they might kill me first. Has this ever happened, or is it just unfounded fear? There is more evidence that cops will attack me than criminals. Speaking of cops, the last time I OC'ed in front of them, they looked at me, made eye contact that I held with them, and nodded. They don't care either.

opencarry.org is a great place to get better acquainted with it. There are reasons concealed may be better, but it isn't always true.

[Marswolf]

Getting away from the OC question for a minute....

TFA has certainly had a voice in passing or defeating some gun legislation. Before I join anything, I like to find out all I can about the group. Frequently the constitution and bylaws of a group are the final determining factor in whether I join.

TennFire or any other TFA member, where can I get a copy of the TFA constitution and bylaws? Online is preferable, but another way is fine too. I couldn't find it on the TFA website. I did sign up for the TFA-LAC E-mail Alerts though.

[Marswolf]

Bump!

I'm still looking for a copy of the TFA Constitution and Bylaws.

TennFire????

[TennFire]

The documents that TFA makes publicly available are on record with the Tennessee Secretary of State and can be accessed through it business services web site. TFA does not make its bylaws publicly accessible at this time but they can be reviewed in the offices or at membership meetings.

[Marswolf]

TFA doesn't make its constitution and bylaws available???

Most groups I know of post them on their website.

This is getting stranger and stranger.

So, someone at a meeting will have a copy?