What gives...

[BimmerFreak]

Now hold on, I didn't say anything about not being able to make money off the guns, there's just a level where it becomes past reasonable. There's making rent, then there's gouging.

I guess my point is; WHO ARE YOU to decide what that level is?

So, lets take a common firearm, and you guys can voice your opinion of what it should sell for:

Dealer Cost: 440.00

MSRP: 599.00

So, how much are you "willing" to let a dealer make?

Should he sell it to you at cost?

Should he make 50 bucks? 100 bucks? 200 bucks?

Why do people assume that when they shop for guns or cars the dealer has a sign on the door that says "I know my price tag says one thing...but please come in and tell me what my product is really worth"

You dont do that when you buy cookies, notebook paper, movie tickets, or fish tacos, so what gives you the right to play this "acceptable level" bs?

Im not saying I sell the gun mentioned above at 599.00, but what if I did?

The manufacturer feels that the gun should sell for 599.00, so why would I be an evil and greedy shop owner if I priced my gun at the MSRP?

(for the record, my price on that gun is 525.00)

I would love to come to some of your jobs, and tell you "you know, I appreciate the hard work you did, the time you took to provide me this service, but I just dont think you should receive this level of compensation"

Better yet, how about a note in your next paycheck "I know that your employer suggests that you receive this amount of money for your work this week, but I really think that level of compensation is too much...here is a lower wage that I feel more comfortable with"

Anyway, I realize this is a lost cause and argument.

There will only be groups of buyers (and gun buyers are some of the worst) that feel they are somehow entitled to better deals, more selection, cheaper prices, or that free box of ammo any time they grace a dealer with their presence.

/Rant

PS: To all the fair and loyal customers that understand the value of a good shop and good service.... This Buds for you!

Edited August 16, 2009 by BimmerFreak

[56FordGuy]

Better yet, how about a note in your next paycheck "I know that your employer suggests that you receive this amount of money for your work this week, but I really think that level of compensation is too much...here is a lower wage that I feel more comfortable with"

I've done retail, I've spent time self employed. I couldn't agree more with what Joe's said. There is a lot of overhead that any business owner has, that the customer just doesn't see. For example, it took me half an hour to replace a tire on your semi truck at 2:00 AM, on the side of the interstate, in the rain. The bill is $100.00. Do you know how many times I'd get the job done, then have to deal with "Well, you're already making $200.00 bucks an hour, I deserve a break"? My service truck costs money. Insurance on the truck costs money. Fuel, tools, parts, it all costs money. At some point, I'd like to get paid for getting out of bed because you called me at 1:30 in the morning, too! Not to mention, I usually didn't have a call lined up for every moment of my time. Some days I'd work 18, 20 hours and have to turn work down because I just couldn't get there. Other days, the phone just wouldn't ring. What then?

As a customer, I don't want to spend way more than I have to, and I may ask for a deal. But I won't ask a retailer to knock $150.00 off a gun, even if it is priced for less down the road. Maybe split the taxes with me, or sell me a box of ammo at cost if I buy the gun for retail? They have rent to pay, employees to pay, lights to keep on, and at some point the shop owner needs to make some money to justify the risk they took opening the store. Does that mean I'll pay an extra margin for something? Sometimes, sometimes not. My selling point isn't price. It's service. I can buy a gun anywhere, just like truck drivers can get their rigs fixed anywhere. But what business is willing to go the extra mile? Who's going to be the equivalent of showing up in the rain with a smile at 2:00 AM, and thanking the customer for calling?

That's why when you find a good shop, you need to support them. It has to be worth it for the shop to stay open. In my case, it wasn't. I got out of the road service stuff a bit over two years ago. I want my favorite gun shops to be around a while, so long term it is in my best interest to occasionally spend a bit more on some stuff than I could get it elsewhere for.

Edited August 16, 2009 by 56FordGuy

[Guest beefcakeb0]

dont get me wrong some great deals are to be had at a show, however, "for the most part" if your not looking for something in particular, or llok like a gun newb they might jack ya. and joe, if you ever come to my job, i will be more than happy to feed your face for free,

i hope im not put in the bad boat by saying some used stock guns can be overpriced, but like everyone else said, if its too high for you, shop elsewhere if its not too high and you dont mind helping out joe or david or tomdick and harry for that matter, throw an extra 20 in after alls said and done. i like to tip my service crew out there in the world. i know 20 aint much but if youv already paid the total i figured the guys can pocket the loot. and of course i dont give 20 for dinner tip, but my tatto guy and gun guys

Edited August 16, 2009 by beefcakeb0

[tntnixon]

I.

There will only be groups of buyers (and gun buyers are some of the worst) that feel they are somehow entitled to better deals, more selection, cheaper prices, or that free box of ammo any time they grace a dealer with their presence.

I do miss the days of a free box of ammo with every gun purchase and the NRA 10% (these used to be standard operating procedure at all gun stores from sea to shining sea).

This is not to be taken as a knock against current gun stores. In most cases, the pricing makes up for it. I'm just being nostalgic.

[TripleDigitRide]

Why do people assume that when they shop for guns or cars the dealer has a sign on the door that says "I know my price tag says one thing...but please come in and tell me what my product is really worth"

That would be the fault of you folks who run the gun stores. If you never started accepting those haggled offers in the first place, they probably wouldn't be doing it today.

Kinda like you said, people don't go to Wal-Mart, McDonalds, Taco Bell, Auto Zone, etc, expecting to haggle. The advertised price IS the price you're going to pay if you want the item.

Once the hagglers know there's a chance you may knock a few bucks off your advertised price, it's all over.

[nightrunner]

to be honest guns, cars and houses are still for the most part sold with a little bit of room to move around on the prices. and with the exception of houses they are two of the very few things that you can trade out on a regular basis.

i know what i can get a used gun for and if i am willing to buy a used gun or not. so i know what im willing to pay for a gun before i even go to the shop. if the price on the tag is close, i might try to haggle, but if its outrageous im not even gonna try to talk you down. sometimes the seller will throw in a box of ammo on the deal, but most times not and its not expected. i am buying a gun not a complete package deal.

price means alot to me when buying a gun, to an extent. i have 1 shop that i usually go to, to get my guns and gear (except ammo). i may look at another shop and if i get an uncommonly good deal, i will go for it. if not i take my business to my normal shop. i may pay a little more on this deal or that deal, but overall i am getting better deals on average there than anywhere else. it nice when a dealer will make a deal on a trade with you on the internet, sight unseen, and when you get in store and your trade value isnt quite what he figured on he plays around with the numbers to make it work, even though he wont make much money on that deal. heck, it made me a lifetime repeat customer and he will make more off my subsequent visits than he could have made by increasing his price or rather sticking with his profit margin, and me just stopping by if im in the area.

plus convenience and service has a price (not that i want to have to pay for it, but i am willing to patronize a place because of it)

i completely understand where a gunshop owner is coming from when people try to tell them your price is too high. im an electrician and if you think my price is too high, i dont get the job, pure and simple. i absolutely HATE it when people tell me, "i can get it done somewhere else cheaper", until about a year-year and a half ago i would say, then get them to do it, but i have to move around a bit now on prices. i have always tried to be as fair as i can on prices but a man has to put food on the table and a roof over his head.

[Guest coldblackwind]

I guess my point is; WHO ARE YOU to decide what that level is?

So, lets take a common firearm, and you guys can voice your opinion of what it should sell for:

Dealer Cost: 440.00

MSRP: 599.00

So, how much are you "willing" to let a dealer make?

Should he sell it to you at cost?

Should he make 50 bucks? 100 bucks? 200 bucks?

Why do people assume that when they shop for guns or cars the dealer has a sign on the door that says "I know my price tag says one thing...but please come in and tell me what my product is really worth"

You dont do that when you buy cookies, notebook paper, movie tickets, or fish tacos, so what gives you the right to play this "acceptable level" bs?

Im not saying I sell the gun mentioned above at 599.00, but what if I did?

The manufacturer feels that the gun should sell for 599.00, so why would I be an evil and greedy shop owner if I priced my gun at the MSRP?

(for the record, my price on that gun is 525.00)

I would love to come to some of your jobs, and tell you "you know, I appreciate the hard work you did, the time you took to provide me this service, but I just dont think you should receive this level of compensation"

Better yet, how about a note in your next paycheck "I know that your employer suggests that you receive this amount of money for your work this week, but I really think that level of compensation is too much...here is a lower wage that I feel more comfortable with"

Anyway, I realize this is a lost cause and argument.

There will only be groups of buyers (and gun buyers are some of the worst) that feel they are somehow entitled to better deals, more selection, cheaper prices, or that free box of ammo any time they grace a dealer with their presence.

/Rant

PS: To all the fair and loyal customers that understand the value of a good shop and good service.... This Buds for you!

Oh my god, I was just offering an opinion, and used an example, I never mentioned any shop by name, so if anyone is getting uber defensive, obviously they know they are doing something wrong, but $700 is $100 over the next highest store in the area, it was just an example! I'm not quite sure why everyone is suddenly getting so defensive, as I was NOT targeting anyone, or any business, but like I said, I'm not trying to start a fight, and hijack someones thread, so if yall can't grow up, and take a little criticism, and insist on argueing with me, then PM me, and I'll argue till we both turn blue, but I'm not gonna be the one who is blamed for hijacking this thread. Anyone has a problem with that, pm me, I won't post in, or read this thread again.

[TripleDigitRide]

Oh my god, I was just offering an opinion, and used an example, I never mentioned any shop by name, so if anyone is getting uber defensive, obviously they know they are doing something wrong, but $700 is $100 over the next highest store in the area, it was just an example! I'm not quite sure why everyone is suddenly getting so defensive, as I was NOT targeting anyone, or any business, but like I said, I'm not trying to start a fight, and hijack someones thread, so if yall can't grow up, and take a little criticism, and insist on argueing with me, then PM me, and I'll argue till we both turn blue, but I'm not gonna be the one who is blamed for hijacking this thread. Anyone has a problem with that, pm me, I won't post in, or read this thread again.

My daughter says you need to see a picture of her puppy.

[BimmerFreak]

Don't take it personally. My comments are not meant specifically for you, but are general comments intended for anyone where the shoe fits.

This "discussion" is about as old as the firearms industry, and it certainly won't be resolved tonight.

[TGO David]

Oh my god, I was just offering an opinion, and used an example, I never mentioned any shop by name, so if anyone is getting uber defensive, obviously they know they are doing something wrong, but $700 is $100 over the next highest store in the area, it was just an example! I'm not quite sure why everyone is suddenly getting so defensive, as I was NOT targeting anyone, or any business, but like I said, I'm not trying to start a fight, and hijack someones thread, so if yall can't grow up, and take a little criticism, and insist on argueing with me, then PM me, and I'll argue till we both turn blue, but I'm not gonna be the one who is blamed for hijacking this thread. Anyone has a problem with that, pm me, I won't post in, or read this thread again.

Hang on a minute. You seem to be the one getting defensive here. Joe was replying in a "Devil's Advocate" sort of fashion and was using your comments as the opposing side in the same spirit. He wasn't accusing you of anything from what I read.

[Guest abailey362]

i deal with this every day but with a different box i'm selling. i second the views from joe as they are all real world and happen hour after hour of every day.

yes there is someone (normally online that is no more than a username or webite to you) who sells it for less. but there is a reason you drove to the store. you can't thumb f*ck a gun online...you can't see the difference in picture quality on a tv..you can't feel the fridge, you can't try on the holster, drive the car etc.

most people are also scared to death to send that guy that has the crazy price on a product their money, because they know as well as the rest of us that if it seems too good to be true it probably is.

i am a cheap bastard, but also see value in the factors mentioned earlier in availablilty, location, relationship with the seller, and price.

what really gets me is when you are already a good bit cheaper on a product than anyone, including the no-name websites and peple still want to try n dick you around.

[gregintenn]

Why do people assume that when they shop for guns or cars the dealer has a sign on the door that says "I know my price tag says one thing...but please come in and tell me what my product is really worth"

SO you're saying that if I am in your shop and see a gun I like but think is a bit overpriced, you'd rather me leave your store and not come back than to make you a cash offer on the gun? You do realize that I will likely tell all my hunting buddies about the bad experience in your shop as well??!!?? It is your business, but I sure don't understand the mentality. If I go in a gun store once and recieve attitude from the guy behind the counter, I never go back. I also relay the experience to many other potential customers.

[BimmerFreak]

SO you're saying that if I am in your shop and see a gun I like but think is a bit overpriced, you'd rather me leave your store and not come back than to make you a cash offer on the gun? You do realize that I will likely tell all my hunting buddies about the bad experience in your shop as well??!!?? It is your business, but I sure don't understand the mentality. If I go in a gun store once and recieve attitude from the guy behind the counter, I never go back. I also relay the experience to many other potential customers.

Nope, thats NOT what I am saying.

What I am saying is the general attitude that when you walk in a gun store, the prices are merely suggestions and that its perfectly acceptable to take any and every gun in the store, and offer about 80% of the asking price.

If you come in my shop and select a gun that you want, but for some reason think it may be a tad high, make me an offer.

DO NOT assume before you even step in the door that the prices listed have "haggling" factored in.

[gregintenn]

DO NOT assume before you even step in the door that the prices listed have "haggling" factored in.

I have always assumed this. I hope that you respond to such offers with a polite "thanks but no thanks" instead of the spill you gave earlier in this thread.

[BimmerFreak]

I have always assumed this. I hope that you respond to such offers with a polite "thanks but no thanks" instead of the spill you gave earlier in this thread.

There are two ways to find out:

Ask any of the 100s of very happy and satisfied TGO members that consider themselves Hero-Gear customers

-or-

Take the time to actually shop at Hero-Gear

[gregintenn]

Fair enough!

[Guest forklift]

/Begin rant

The customer is always right. Period. They're the ones that ALLOW you have a business.

There's no sense in telling the customer that they're wrong or dumb for asking why something is so overpriced, if it is - no matter what the product is, no matter if it's used or new - no matter if it's private trade or store bought. They've worked hard for the money they are about to spend and they are about to make a major purchase.

I've called a phone company because they overcharged me 1 cent. The operator laughed at me, but I don't care. They took 1 cent that wasn't theirs. I got it back. You might call me stingy, rude, whatever. I don't care. I don't go giving my money away and I don't expect a store to give their product away, either.

If I am spending over $100 on something, I am going to make sure that I get my money's worth. It's called value. Some of you might have heard of it.

As a customer, I do research, I compare, talk to owners of the product, I browse online, I visit different stores locally and see where I can get the best value for my money.

So if I walk into a store and I see a used gun marked up higher than the price of a new gun, or a new gun that I know the average cost is $300 and it's got a toe-tag saying it's worth $400, you BET i'm gonna ask questions. I have a RIGHT to.

Someone said that the customers that expect customer service are the ones that spend the least in their store - you said that as if not spending $1000 at your store is a crime. DEAL with it. If i want to spend $1 in your store, then I will. That is AMERICA and I'M the one that puts money into your store. You treat me like I'm lower than someone who is sheepishly spending $800 on a used pistol, I will do everything possible to steer everyone away from your store.

/End rant

Edited August 16, 2009 by forklift

[TGO David]

I have always assumed this. I hope that you respond to such offers with a polite "thanks but no thanks" instead of the spill you gave earlier in this thread.

First let me get this out of the way: Joe is a friend and automatically anything I say about him is going to be translated by someone as me just taking up for him. The truth is that I have no problem telling my friends that they're being a dick, when they're being a dick. So no free rides here.

That said...

I have personally witnessed Joe bending over backwards to make deals happen for customers, sometimes at a loss to himself. Scratch that, frequently it has been at a margin where it had to be a loss for him on that particular sale. Why he does that is pretty clear: He wants to earn people's business as repeat customers.

Joe's shop wouldn't be growing exponentially every year if he treated people like you have described. In fact what worries me is that the tone of what you wrote almost suggests that you intend to start spreading the word that Joe @ Hero Gear is a jerk and won't wheel and deal with people on prices. If you've never set foot in his store and dealt with him, please don't start a rumor like that based off of your impressions in this thread. Not about Joe, not about anyone.

We are extremely fortunate to have top notch stores represented here as Authorized Vendors and none of them, to my knowledge, have ever treated people the way that you more or less described. In fact, there has only been one shop represented on TGO that had a questionable attitude toward prospective customers and that shop lost their Vendor status as a result.

Like Joe said, there are two ways to find out what the business practices are of any of our vendors: Ask around or shop there.

TGO often serves as a place where people can come and blow off some steam and express frustrations about certain industry aspects in the company of friends. That privilege extends even to our Vendors. I ask that you respect that freedom by reading the things said here in context of their intended spirit rather than extrapolating incorrect ideas from them and then using those assumptions to label people.

Thanks.

[TGO David]

/Begin rant

The customer is always right. Period. They're the ones that ALLOW you have a business.

As a business owner, I would love to find the person who originally started advocating that nonsense and then punch them in the neck. That is perhaps one of the biggest lies in retail that for some reason has become an accepted truth just because everyone has heard it at some point.

The customer is not always right, period. Customers frequently think that they are right about what they want until a sales consultant shows them a better option, more perfectly suited to their situation or needs. A smart customer realizes this and allows a sales consultant the chance to earn their trust and business.

If you base "rightness" on the power of a customer to potentially give a business their money, you completely discount the fact that sometimes customers are truly clueless about what is best. Any moron can sell you exactly what you ask for as long as they are willing to disengage their sense of ethics and don't mind facilitating your mistakes. An ethical, honest businessman will take the risk of losing the sale just to make sure that they aren't complicit in you choosing poorly.

Think about that some.

[dralarms]

There are two ways to find out:

Ask any of the 100s of very happy and satisfied TGO members that consider themselves Hero-Gear customers

-or-

Take the time to actually shop at Hero-Gear

Count me as one of the very sastified. Joe rocks:D

First let me get this out of the way: Joe is a friend and automatically anything I say about him is going to be translated by someone as me just taking up for him. The truth is that I have no problem telling my friends that they're being a dick, when they're being a dick. So no free rides here.

That said...

I have personally witnessed Joe bending over backwards to make deals happen for customers, sometimes at a loss to himself. Scratch that, frequently it has been at a margin where it had to be a loss for him on that particular sale. Why he does that is pretty clear: He wants to earn people's business as repeat customers.

Joe's shop wouldn't be growing exponentially every year if he treated people like you have described. In fact what worries me is that the tone of what you wrote almost suggests that you intend to start spreading the word that Joe @ Hero Gear is a jerk and won't wheel and deal with people on prices. If you've never set foot in his store and dealt with him, please don't start a rumor like that based off of your impressions in this thread. Not about Joe, not about anyone.

We are extremely fortunate to have top notch stores represented here as Authorized Vendors and none of them, to my knowledge, have ever treated people the way that you more or less described. In fact, there has only been one shop represented on TGO that had a questionable attitude toward prospective customers and that shop lost their Vendor status as a result.

Like Joe said, there are two ways to find out what the business practices are of any of our vendors: Ask around or shop there.

TGO often serves as a place where people can come and blow off some steam and express frustrations about certain industry aspects in the company of friends. That privilege extends even to our Vendors. I ask that you respect that freedom by reading the things said here in context of their intended spirit rather than extrapolating incorrect ideas from them and then using those assumptions to label people.

Thanks.

I was actually not gonna get into this post but I have to relate a story about my son and Joe 2 HG:

I purchased a new S&W40C from Joe and my son who had been toying around with upgrading to the 40c asked Joe what he would do in a trade. Joe about blew me over when he told him how much difference he wanted. Let's just say that (not posting pricing but it was a heck of a deal) Joe not only treated my son right, I think he might have actually taken a hit on the deal.

I would buy ALL my guns a HG if I could get over that way more often, as it is I can't get over that way as much as I like.

Now on the "haggling" crap. I don't haggle, I see no need, if the price is too high I don't mess with it. Now I have asked "how much out the door" on a bunch of occasions only to get a "discount" from the gun dealer. It's not that I expect it and for the most part have already made up my mind before asking the question, just wanted to know how much with tax and all.

[Guest NeuralFizz]

I think his point was not in the literal sense of rightness. i.e. The customer is not omniscient and knows what is right constantly.

What he's saying is that the customer is the one who allows the business to stay afloat; The customer is who the main focus should be on. i.e. The dollar is always right.

Gun buying is a strange thing, comparatively speaking.

I've worked in retail for quite a few years and I honestly hated it. I've sold Appliances, electronics, you name it. Even shoes.

It's a fascinating subject to me because the gun business is one that is so unlike anything else. Compared to most people here, I imagine, I am a babe in the gun world. I don't think the pricing structure is strange, but it's the subject matter itself is what makes gun buying so weird. Anything that's a fundamental right (as guns are) are sure to stir up powerful emotions in people. While it may sound funny, it's true. Going into gun stores and comparing it to my other retail experiences, it's like nothing I've ever seen.

Someone mentioned earlier that guns are a bit like cars and houses in the fact that there is some leeway in the price. And that's true, because you don't go to McDonald's and tell the guy "I'll give you 50 cents cash money right now for that Double Quarter pounder." There's a bit of wiggle room the owners/retails can give.

Now, at the retail store I worked at for so long, we were unable to 'wheel and deal'. What we were able to do was price match; if you found the same thing somewhere else we'd give it to you for a little less than the other guy. That is capitalism, of course. Everyone is out to make money, and everyone is out to spend as little as they can get away with. Now naturally gun shops want to make a profit and clearly they do, but it is a simple fact of the world we live in that if someone can get a gun for cheaper, they'll go to the other guy.

I recently bought a pistol, and price was a huge factor. I didn't haggle with my dealer, but I said "I've found it for this price, can you get close to it? I'd rather buy it from you."

Anyway, my point is that gun shops are retail and you're going to run into that kind of stuff because you are a retail store. I just think that a lot of gun shops *ahem On Target* act really smug about things. But the bottom line is that if someone can find the gun for cheaper, they'll more than likely buy it from them.

[nightrunner]

As a business owner, I would love to find the person who originally started advocating that nonsense and then punch them in the neck. That is perhaps one of the biggest lies in retail that for some reason has become an accepted truth just because everyone has heard it at some point.

Amen.

I believe it was Wal-Mart that started it, but I hate it as much as the next man. When I first saw it I thought, what the... nobody is ever always right.

[Guest forklift]

The customer is not always right, period. Customers frequently think that they are right about what they want until a sales consultant shows them a better option, more perfectly suited to their situation or needs.

Oh yeah, I'm sorry, I forgot that sales associates LIVE WITH ME and KNOW EXACTLY what I need and aren't driven by an agenda to make more money. Don't pull that bull crap with me man, I've done sales in many forms for many years.

You prove my point by saying that customers are always blind sheep and don't know what they want. THAT is the bull crap that has gotten this country into DEBT and the same bull crap that is driving the OBAMA administration to 'give the people what WE KNOW is best for them.'

YOU don't know what's best for me, I do.

[TGO David]

Oh yeah, I'm sorry, I forgot that sales associates LIVE WITH ME and KNOW EXACTLY what I need and aren't driven by an agenda to make more money. Don't pull that bull crap with me man, I've done sales in many forms for many years.

You prove my point by saying that customers are always blind sheep and don't know what they want. THAT is the bull crap that has gotten this country into DEBT and the same bull crap that is driving the OBAMA administration to 'give the people what WE KNOW is best for them.'

YOU don't know what's best for me, I do.

I must have struck a nerve. Are you that guy at gun shops or something?

Let's assume that you are in the top 10% of consumers who know exactly what they need and do not want or require the assistance of a salesperson who has taken the time to educate themselves on the wide range of options and subtleties of whatever product category it is you're shopping for.

Awesome!

Bud's Gun Shop and Gun Broker exist specifically for people like you who have done all of their homework and aren't open to the suggestions of an unbiased sales person who isn't paid on commission and isn't trying to push an agenda. Granted, it may be rare to find sales people of that nature in the whole of retail, but it's not that rare in the gun world. Hell, the price margin is too narrow to begin with so it's not like any sane person would work on commission in gun sales.

I submit that you might reconsider what strikes me as being a fairly condescending attitude toward gun store clerks. There are good stores out there and there are sales consultants in those stores who aren't just fed on Guns & Ammo or American Handgunner and who actually do know what they are talking about. You might look at them and think, "I'm smarter than this guy because I've got a real job. I'm not going to listen to a damn thing he says because *I* know what *I* want."

Maybe you should lighten up a little, be slightly more open minded, and realize that this mere salesperson isn't necessarily an ignorant ass trying to push whatever gun is hot and happening at the moment, but that he's someone who is around hundreds of different firearms every day and has probably picked up a smart idea or two along the way that you could benefit from.

Really it's no skin off of my teeth either way. I don't work at or own a gun shop. I just tend to be a more open minded about the experience of people in sales and apparently put a little more value in what they are saying even if I temper it with what I've learned from doing my own research before hand.

[TGO David]

Oh, one last thing...

THAT is the bull crap that has gotten this country into DEBT and the same bull crap that is driving the OBAMA administration to 'give the people what WE KNOW is best for them.

That is probably the most ridiculous political observation that I've ever read on TGO. Actually, the unfettered arrogance of the typical American consumer thinking that they are God's gift to every industry that sells a good or service is probably more at fault for the erosion of capitalism than anything. The American consumer has become so accustomed to always being "right" and demanding of the lowest prices, to hell with the consequences, that many American businesses could no longer compete with the off-shore sweat shops that were willing to do whatever it took to deliver.

Think... Wal-mart. Think... Apple's iPod factory labor-camps in China.

We Americans tend to be cheap bastards with an absurd sense of entitlement, and it has caused tremendous damage to our economy as a result.