What gives...

[tntnixon]

I'm not new to shooting but I am new to the gun culture. I guess I'm a little misinformed, and this is truely a quest for knowlege, not a statement to prove point.

I have been buing guns for years through various outlets (gun shops, box stores) and still shop extensively (always pricing). So what I don't understand is private transfers. I understand the process. I just don't understand the pricing structure. I've only recently started going to gun shows and looking at classifieds and notice a complete lack of correlation between the price of the weapon and the manufacturer's MSRP. The asking price is almost always higher even for weapons that aren't rare and are easily attainable. I see comments about how "that's a great deal" when I know I can go buy a new one cheaper.

Is it the thrill of the chase that drives people to buy used guns for more than they can buy a new one? Is it that I don't see the behind the scenes haggling (I hate haggling)? Is it that the buyers can't or don't want to pass the background check and it is worth it to them to pay more?

Please enlighten me.

[Guest Britestar]

Well in my opinion you very observant, I have seen the same thing and had to bite my tongue. Alot of used firearms that have been priced higher than if purchased new. Now if the gun has upgrades that add to the cost then it is perfectly understandable. Most hunting rifles can be purchased off the rack so to speak at better prices than one that is "set up" you can incur alot of expense in a quality scope, having the barrel floated, trigger job, just to mention a few. But guns that have no upgrades and are priced at new prices are a bit insulting to those who know what they should sell for and gives the impression that someone MAY be trying to take advantage of someone who does not know better. Simply saving tax and the fee for background ck is not really enough for me personally. Please though don't tell me it is a good deal when I can go to the gun shop and buy for less.

[TripleDigitRide]

First of all, getting your prices from a gun show is not a good idea. Especially right now. Many sellers really jacked up the price once Obama was elected. Some have since dropped a bit, but some folks are still attempting to lure those uninformed buyers who are willing to pay the inflated prices.

Based on what I've seen, the MSRP is almost always higher than the actual retail prices. This may not be true for firearms that have recently been released to the marketplace, or a select few "special" guns.

MSRP is a joke, and when a retailer/seller mentiones how they are selling an item below MSRP, I immediately disregard the statement, because it's little more than a sales ploy. A vast majority of items almost never sell for MSRP, and if they do, it's only when they are first released to the public. Once the initial buying frenzy cools down, the price will drop to something a little more realistic.

Shop around! Like you, I tend to look for the best price I can find on many items. Sometimes it pays to spend a few extra bucks, but not very often, IMHO. In the gun world, you will hear alot about paying extra for good customer service. Well, as far as I'm concerned, good customer service should not come at an extra cost. Plus, when dealing with firearms, if you have trouble with it after the purchase, the retailers do not warranty the item. You have to go through the manufacturer. That being the case, I see little reason to pay extra for customer service that doesn't include fixing a problem that I may encounter after the purchase.

Sometimes you'll find a shop that may attempt to fix the problem if it's very minor, but it many cases, you'll be forced to ship the item to the manufacturer. All this costs time and money. Time and money you'll likely not save simply because you spend more money with a retailer who claims to give better customer service. Based on my experiences, many of the shops that claim to have superior customer service also have the higher prices. Again, you shouldn't have to pay for good customer service, but looks like that's just the American way.

Buying and selling firearms is no different than buying and selling anything else. You have to do your homework. It's just like buying a vehicle. You shop around before making the purchase. You may look at 5 identical vehicles, and there could be a huge difference in prices. One guy may be quite a bit high because he didn't do his homework when deciding to sell. Or, maybe he paid more than what it was worth in the first place, so he's only trying to recoup as much as he can. Then, you may find the next guy has his vehicle prices considerably lower than everyone else because he's desperate for money, and must sell ASAP.

You never really know why someone has priced an item at the amount they have, but if you spend a little time doing some research, none of that really matters. After doing the research, you should have a pretty good idea of what a fair price should be, and that's what you shoot for.

Edited August 15, 2009 by TripleDigitRide

[TripleDigitRide]

Oh, and you menioned "haggling". I'm with you on that one, I hate to haggle.

You will hear about people who haggle when purchasing a gun, whether it be from a retail store or an individual. I don't haggle, and that's why I price shop. Either you have priced at a price I'm willing to pay, or you don't.

Edited August 15, 2009 by TripleDigitRide

[Guest 2HOW]

If you bypass the paperwork and the checks, you will pay more and people know that .

[tntnixon]

If you bypass the paperwork and the checks, you will pay more and people know that .

I guess I don't consider that a discount any more than if you bought a stereo, played it for a while, took it apart, put it back together and sold it to me for the regular price tag and told me how much money I was saving by not paying taxes.

[TripleDigitRide]

I guess I don't consider that a discount any more than if you bought a stereo, played it for a while, took it apart, put it back together and sold it to me for the regular price tag and told me how much money I was saving by not paying taxes.

I understand your point, although comparing a stereo to a gun is not a very good comparison.

After you're around the world of firearms long enough, you'll notice that most gun owners are quite anal when it comes to the care they give their guns. They are generally treated very well. That being said, you still need to know what you're looking at to determine if the gun has been taken care of.

Saving the money you'd spend on taxes and background check can sometimes be a very fair deal. Of course, this is probably only the case when looking to purchase a very gently used or never been fired gun. On a $500 gun, that could be a savings of $60. That's a pretty good savings in some situations. Of course, the more expensive the gun, the greater the savings.

Plus, some folks prefer not to have a gun that government can track back to them quite so easily. And they're sometimes willing to pay for that luxury. It's all about what YOU'RE willing to pay.

As I said before, do your own research, and don't take it personally when you run accross a price that you think is too high. Just pass on the deal and keep looking.

[Metalhead]

Plus, when dealing with firearms, if you have trouble with it after the purchase, the retailers do not warranty the item. You have to go through the manufacturer. That being the case, I see little reason to pay extra for customer service that doesn't include fixing a problem that I may encounter after the purchase.

Unless you shop at Guns & Leather. If you purchase a firearm from us, and something is wrong with it - we'll take care of it, period. Whether that be simply replacing the gun with another one, having our gunsmith fix it, sending the gun back to the factory at our expense, or returning the gun altogether for something different.

[TGO David]

I hate haggling and have always priced anything I've sold below retail and at a price point where I'm making what I need to get out of it while the buyer was assured of getting a sweet deal in the process. It's just easier to use the "CarMax Mentality" when I sell guns.

Here's the price, it's not only reasonable but also a great deal, no haggling required and we all go home happy.

Why some folks refuse to do it that way is anyone's guess. I can't help but wonder, however, if the people who expect top dollar for their used gear are the same ones who nickle and dime gun shops to death, and expect the shop owner to literally pay them to take their guns.

[TripleDigitRide]

Unless you shop at Guns & Leather. If you purchase a firearm from us, and something is wrong with it - we'll take care of it, period. Whether that be simply replacing the gun with another one, having our gunsmith fix it, sending the gun back to the factory at our expense, or returning the gun altogether for something different.

I've heard stories to back up this statement.

Unfortunately, most shops don't operate like G&L.

[Moped]

No they don't.

I purchase mostly used because I always get a better deal. My experience is that most people purchase a firearm, maybe fire a box or two or ammo, clean it and put it in a drawer somewhere and forget about it. So you are, most of the time, getting a practicaly brand new gun. If I buy a firearm that has been shot more, I usually will ask to test fire it before I lay the money down or I'm buying it from a buddy and I know the firearm in question.

Still sometimes I'll not worry about it and just purchase it after a good visual inspection.

And if the firearm is what I think is overpriced, I'll make a fair offer and if it's not accepted, I'll shake their hand and walk away with a smile on my face, knowing that I didn't get screwed. That's a win in my book too. I shake their hand and smile, cause I'm a nice guy! No need to be ugly about it.

[Guest coldblackwind]

Used guns are usually a better deal, but you do need to know what your looking at, or ask someone who does. A lot of people I know come to me about prices, because I know what a lot of stuff goes for, and if I don't, I have 2 or 3 people I can call, and at least one of them will know, and I'm not afraid to call them if I'm not certain. I've seen a lot of guns at shows and such going well over what they are worth. Auctions are even worse. I've seen 10/22's ($189 at walmart) sell for $250 with no modifications, and in bad shape. On the other hand I've picked up guns that usually cost over $400 for more like $200, its all about shopping around.

As for new guns, many of the dealers mark new guns up WELL over what they pay for them, and it can vary dramatically from one to the next. The new colt .22 ar-15's for example, wholesale (what they pay, plus shipping) is $469 if my memory serves, but I've seen them going anywhere from a reasonable $549 (figure $469+shipping, they are probably close to $500 into it, it's only about a $50 markup), all the way up to a ridiculous $700 (close to a $200 markup, and I won't tell who has them for that, it'll only start a fight). New or used, its a matter of shopping around, knowing what the gun is worth, and knowing who's prices are reasonable, and who's are not.

[TGO David]

As for new guns, many of the dealers mark new guns up WELL over what they pay for them, and it can vary dramatically from one to the next

Gouging aside, are gun dealers just not supposed to make money anymore or what? I'm glad I don't own a gun shop. I'd probably last about as long as it took me to run out of rent money, because I'd constantly being telling some cheap jerk where he could go get a gun for free: by enlisting.

[nightrunner]

gun dealers dont make much money on guns anyways, not enough to keep their stores open at least. they stay in business with ammo and holsters and accessories.

most times, yes, you can get it cheaper from a private party but it is also in unknown condition, just like cars.

[BimmerFreak]

I normally don't jump into these threads, as it usually isnt worth my time to try and bring reason and common sense to the ones that are the most vocal.

So, let me preface this by saying that ALL consumers should ALWAYS factor the multitude of factors that come into play when making a major purchase.

Off the top of my head:

Quality

Convenience

Proximity

Customer Service

Price

Warranty

Service after the sale

Availability

and the list goes on.

I know that when I shop for an item, I cant just look at ONE variable.

Does that guy down the street have the best price, but zero availability? Well, then I guess its not such a good deal!

Does the guy on the other side of the State have a great price on a product that is in stock, yet is a complete prick? Well, perhaps I dont like to give pricks my money.

We could go on and on with different scenarios, but the bottomline is:

If you arent comfortable with the sale, THEN DON'T BUY IT!

Now, time for me to get on my soapbox just a little bit...

Who in the hell do we (im including myself, since I too am a consumer) think we are by dictating what an acceptable margin for a retailer should be?

Each retailer's personal, financial, and business situation is different.

Who are we to tell him what he can or cant make?

Again; if you dont feel comfortable with the total scenario; WALK AWAY!

I tell my own customers this.

If they dont feel comfortable with a purchase (from me or any other dealer) then dont buy.

I would rather you not spend money with me, then have you buy something you think you got "taken" on.

What assumes me is that there are so many "experts" out there.

The internet (and this forum) is full of them.

Guys that pick their nose for a living, yet think they have my business plan mapped out, knowing exactly how I should run my business, what inventory items I should have, and what they should be priced at.

Think you got it all figured out? Come bring a big check on Monday, and I will leave you the keys as I walk out the door!

(I will even throw a black Ferrari into the deal.... )

Lastly, its pretty funny that some of the people that I find are the most vocal about things like "outstanding customer service should be free..." and "you shouldnt have to pay extra for great service" are the ones that require the most hands on service, need the most favors, and seem to want to spend the least amount of money.

Now, dont get me wrong. I totally agree with the comments above!

I feel that outstanding customer service before, during, and after the sale IS the standard.

It shouldnt be an exception, but should be the rule.

This is something I live by, and its how I run my shop.

Ask most people that have spent money with you, and they would confirm this.

So, what I am supposed to do when I get a customer that wants the ability to call, email, or PM me at night, on the weekends, or on my day off as they need my expert advice or input?

Thats just part of the deal. Right?

What about the guys that ask you to give them the best "cash price" and then wants to put it on layaway for the next 6 months?

We should just do that because we are cool guys....right?

How about when I have a customer that really cant afford the Rifle/Pistorl/EoTech/etc he so badly wants, so you sell it to him AT COST! and then have him ask if he can make payments?

Just part of the deal?

What about letting that same customer take said item home with him without paying? Accepting his word that he will make payments on it as he has the money?

All dealers do that? Right?

My point?

1. The guys that bitch and moan about prices, and are sometimes willing to cut a dealers throat for a better deal are normally not customers worth having.

Gun stores are a FOR PROFIT enterprise.

We don't operate the "Rabid Gun Nuts Without Money Foundation"

2. Im all for getting and giving great deals.

Remember, a dealer need to make money at some point.

Don't let a dealer make money, and sooner or later you will find your favorite "hook up" out of business because they couldnt pay the bills.

3. Think you're smarter than me? Think you have this industry all figured out?

Step up and put your money where your mouth is! Bring me a check and I will give you the alarm codes and keys to the door.

Edited August 15, 2009 by BimmerFreak

[tntnixon]

I'm not giving a hard time to retailers at all. Generally speaking, most have been very fair. The best prices I see in the classifieds are usually from retailers.

G&L, for example, is almost always cheaper on their new guns than most of the used guns I see advertised. And their used guns are marked down even further.

What I am questioning is the fact that most of the used guns I see advertised, are more expensive than the new ones I see in shops and box stores. Sometimes I wonder if they go and buy one at a store and then try to sell it at a profit.

Who knows? I mostly just find it interesting. I made a grave error in judgement a week or so ago and posted the retail price of a gun in one of the classifieds (I didn't realize it was taboo). I was severly scolded by more than one member.

So my question then becomes: Is it more wrong to question a price or to screw a fellow member? I guess everyone has to answer that for themselves.

[BimmerFreak]

I think the same rules apply in face to face deals; think the price is too high? Dont buy it.

[TripleDigitRide]

I normally don't jump into these threads, as it usually isnt worth my time to try and bring reason and common sense to the ones that are the most vocal.

So, let me preface this by saying that ALL consumers should ALWAYS factor the multitude of factors that come into play when making a major purchase.

Off the top of my head:

Quality

Convenience

Proximity

Customer Service

Price

Warranty

Service after the sale

Availability

and the list goes on.

I know that when I shop for an item, I cant just look at ONE variable.

Does that guy down the street have the best price, but zero availability? Well, then I guess its not such a good deal!

Does the guy on the other side of the State have a great price on a product that is in stock, yet is a complete prick? Well, perhaps I dont like to give pricks my money.

We could go on and on with different scenarios, but the bottomline is:

If you arent comfortable with the sale, THEN DON'T BUY IT!

Now, time for me to get on my soapbox just a little bit...

Who in the hell do we (im including myself, since I too am a consumer) think we are by dictating what an acceptable margin for a retailer should be?

Each retailer's personal, financial, and business situation is different.

Who are we to tell him what he can or cant make?

Again; if you dont feel comfortable with the total scenario; WALK AWAY!

I tell my own customers this.

If they dont feel comfortable with a purchase (from me or any other dealer) then dont buy.

I would rather you not spend money with me, then have you buy something you think you got "taken" on.

What assumes me is that there are so many "experts" out there.

The internet (and this forum) is full of them.

Guys that pick their nose for a living, yet think they have my business plan mapped out, knowing exactly how I should run my business, what inventory items I should have, and what they should be priced at.

Think you got it all figured out? Come bring a big check on Monday, and I will leave you the keys as I walk out the door!

(I will even throw a black Ferrari into the deal.... )

Lastly, its pretty funny that some of the people that I find are the most vocal about things like "outstanding customer service should be free..." and "you shouldnt have to pay extra for great service" are the ones that require the most hands on service, need the most favors, and seem to want to spend the least amount of money.

Now, dont get me wrong. I totally agree with the comments above!

I feel that outstanding customer service before, during, and after the sale IS the standard.

It shouldnt be an exception, but should be the rule.

This is something I live by, and its how I run my shop.

Ask most people that have spent money with you, and they would confirm this.

So, what I am supposed to do when I get a customer that wants the ability to call, email, or PM me at night, on the weekends, or on my day off as they need my expert advice or input?

Thats just part of the deal. Right?

What about the guys that ask you to give them the best "cash price" and then wants to put it on layaway for the next 6 months?

We should just do that because we are cool guys....right?

How about when I have a customer that really cant afford the Rifle/Pistorl/EoTech/etc he so badly wants, so you sell it to him AT COST! and then have him ask if he can make payments?

Just part of the deal?

What about letting that same customer take said item home with him without paying? Accepting his word that he will make payments on it as he has the money?

All dealers do that? Right?

My point?

1. The guys that bitch and moan about prices, and are sometimes willing to cut a dealers throat for a better deal are normally not customers worth having.

Gun stores are a FOR PROFIT enterprise.

We don't operate the "Rabid Gun Nuts Without Money Foundation"

2. Im all for getting and giving great deals.

Remember, a dealer need to make money at some point.

Don't let a dealer make money, and sooner or later you will find your favorite "hook up" out of business because they couldnt pay the bills.

3. Think you're smarter than me? Think you have this industry all figured out?

Step up and put your money where your mouth is! Bring me a check and I will give you the alarm codes and keys to the door.

I can personally vouche for the level of customer service provided at Hero Gear.

I couldn't have asked for better customer service when building my AR. I don't know every AR dealer around, but I have a hard time believing there are more knowledgeable than Joe. He went above and beyond the call of duty, and that is why I recommend him to everyone I know.

There are numerous dealers far closer than Hero Gear, but I'm more than willing to make that 1 1/2 hour drive. Plus, it helps that my route take me very close to Hero Gear on a regular basis.

There is an expected amount of customer service at our local shops, but Hero Gear far exceeded my expectations.

Edited August 15, 2009 by TripleDigitRide

[Guest beefcakeb0]

while i pretty much agree with joe fr hero gear/guns, i dont even really know who or what he is speaking of exactly.... i notice that some sellers think that they can get retain value out of a stock used gun. thats a no brainer....... not really on the forum but out and about... this is a capitalist economy and thats how the world turns... for a little longer at least. gun shows are not the best place to buy guns for the most part. people will always test the waters with a high price. even though i hae haggling as well its best to just offer a lower percent of the price. i would start at 20% less then give up at 10% unless i really want it, but you could just try 80% of the normal asking price, and if they hold steady say 90% and you will get the feeling of whether he or she is hard up for the cash or not

to me this thread is about used guns, and dealers are allowed markup imo. i like to pay my servicemen well. they keeps me happy..... tip your tattoo artist and your gun salesmen!

[Guest beefcakeb0]

and +1 on the word of mouth because of nice people.

[Metalhead]

What I am questioning is the fact that most of the used guns I see advertised, are more expensive than the new ones I see in shops and box stores. Sometimes I wonder if they go and buy one at a store and then try to sell it at a profit.

This happens alot actually. There are plenty of non-FFL dealers that troll gunbroker and their reasonable, volume local dealers (myself and Joe included, I'm sure) that snap up firearms with the intent to resale at a profit.

However, what the vast majority of those guys don't understand, is ATF watches those things. I can think of 3 customers of mine off the top of my head that had ATF show up at their door and accuse them of "running guns". Granted, all of those customers that had that experience trade guns with us every other week or so. I would imagine the non-FFL dealer as I like to call them would have a similiar situation as far as 4473's go.

Other than that, I think Joe hit the nail on the head, as usual. I absolutely do not mind and rather enjoy giving people a good deal on stuff, as that means they more than likely will come back and be a repeat customer and I just got rid of some inventory. However, it's those that DEMAND that I give them a discount that I will give the shaft to. This has included some members of this board, unfortunately.

[tntnixon]

However, it's those that DEMAND that I give them a discount that I will give the shaft to. This has included some members of this board, unfortunately.

You don't have to worry about that from me(I'm a quiet guy that asks can I see that -insert name of gun here- and then asks you to start the process. No BS just straight to the point). I've bought a lot of weapons from you, especially in the last year, and have always found your prices fair without having to haggle over pennies.

Anyway, +1 for G&L.

[Guest coldblackwind]

Gouging aside, are gun dealers just not supposed to make money anymore or what? I'm glad I don't own a gun shop. I'd probably last about as long as it took me to run out of rent money, because I'd constantly being telling some cheap jerk where he could go get a gun for free: by enlisting.

Now hold on, I didn't say anything about not being able to make money off the guns, there's just a level where it becomes past reasonable. There's making rent, then there's gouging.

[Guest coldblackwind]

Oh, and as for gunshows not being the best place to buy, I have to disagree to some extent. For the most part, gunshows are not the best place to buy, I will agree with that, but if you know what your looking at, and what its worth, you can't beat the sheer quantity offered, from the sheer quantity of different sources. Many of the best deals I have found have been at shows. There may not be deals on the exact gun you're looking for at the time, but there are still plenty of deals at shows, some of which are really great deals.

[Guest tnmale46]

Oh, and you menioned "haggling". I'm with you on that one, I hate to haggle.

You will hear about people who haggle when purchasing a gun, whether it be from a retail store or an individual. I don't haggle, and that's why I price shop. Either you have priced at a price I'm willing to pay, or you don't.

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