case dismissed

[Guest dotsun]

Congratz on getting the restraining order dismissed Mike! J/K I couldn't resist.

[Marswolf]

Marswolf, that’s just not correct. I’ve searched hundreds of vehicles. I almost always asked for permission, and I never asked for permission to search a vehicle that I didn’t already have probable cause to search. I didn’t do it because I was worried about having probable cause; I did it as conversation and interaction with the person. I had discretion on a misdemeanor and I may be deciding if I was going to make an arrest or not.

Whether or not a person gives permission to search or not is their choice; but it is something they should think about carefully before they answer based on the situation. How you answer that question could be the difference in going to jail and going home.

Now Dave....

You know perfectly well that people are asked permission to search their vehicles all the time when the officer suspects that there is something illegal in there but there is not sufficient cause to force a search or convince a judge to issue a search warrant.

Last year a friend of mine was stopped in his pickup around Newport for something. My friend was asked for his permission to search the truck, but he refused. The office became very irate at this impertinence and launched into a tirade of threats that normally would get the vehicle driver to relent. But my friend did not relent. Eventually the officer realized that his bluff had been called and things quickly deescalated. You see, my friend realized that these bullying techniques are part and parcel of LE technique.

Oh yeah, did I mention that my friend is a retired police chief?

[DaveTN]

Now Dave....

You know perfectly well that people are asked permission to search their vehicles all the time when the officer suspects that there is something illegal in there but there is not sufficient cause to force a search or convince a judge to issue a search warrant.

Last year a friend of mine was stopped in his pickup around Newport for something. My friend was asked for his permission to search the truck, but he refused. The office became very irate at this impertinence and launched into a tirade of threats that normally would get the vehicle driver to relent. But my friend did not relent. Eventually the officer realized that his bluff had been called and things quickly deescalated. You see, my friend realized that these bullying techniques are part and parcel of LE technique.

Oh yeah, did I mention that my friend is a retired police chief?

My point is that everyone has to make their own decisions based on the situation and then they have to live with them.

My thoughts on this are more about what I taught my kids on how to handle a traffic stop. Kids do stupid things that could impact their future and their careers. Their futures could very well be in the hands of a Police Officer on a traffic stop. The Officer may be making the decision of whether to turn them and the vehicle over to their parents or tow the vehicle and pursue criminal charges.

My friends and family know that they have the right to refuse a request to search and they know they have the right to invoke Miranda. I have also explained to them the serious consequences of doing either and hope they can make a good decision based on their situation.

In the example you used of your ex-Police Chief friend I will assume that he didn’t have anything in his car and he had not been drinking. Refusing a request to search when you know the cops won’t find anything and they are not making any decisions about charges against you, is totally different than when you know they may find something or you have been drinking.

[Mike.357]

I did not care if they searched the vehicle, I just wanted the owner of it to make that decision. He was about a block away and probably would have consented, I never asked him as the point was moot anyway.

I also do not hold animosity towards my brother for allowing the search.

The only animosity I have is over being arrested and having to prove myself innocent.

The state never had to prove anything. It was assumed I was guilty. I am not a man of a lot of means but I was able to scrape up enough to hire the best attorney in knoxville.

Someone with no means at all would more than likely have been found guilty.

[Mark@Sea]

What exactly would be the serious consequence of refusing to permit voluntary search of your vehicle? Aside from the risk of a cop just making up charges (but that never happens, right?) because you pissed him off.

If a cop gets pissed off that I stand on my rights, he needs to be doing something else for a living, toot sweet.

[Mike.357]

The more I think about it, if I HAD known the gun was in the stinkin truck I would have said NO for sure. What was he going to do, arrest me anyway?

[Marswolf]

I'm sure a lot of it had to do with the white supremacist rally you were observing. Those things will set officers on edge. I have no doubt but that seeing that holster on your side was taken as a sign that you were a troublemaker.

Carrying a holster is not illegal but did look suspicious. With your explanation to the officer, I don't think a judge would see in of itself as probable cause to search the vehicle though.

As in most situations, this was a collection of errors. A cluster-****. Being at the rally, wearing a holster, allowing a search. Don't do that again.

[Mike.357]

The whole thing about the holster is THP said in his statement that I took it off and put it in the truck. He also negelected to add that the pistol was found in a right hand holster. He observed me removing my holster from my left side. And no one would confuse that it was the same holster.

And oddly enough the THP man was totally under control and acted professional the entire time, never expressing emotion. The half dozen or so KPD guys were acting like billy bad ass, and the other 15 or 20 cops appeared bored by the whole thing. Of the dozen I saw or I dealt with at the jail about half were professional, the other half, 4 men and two woman played grab ass behind the counter alternately chasing one another and laughing or stuffing cookies in their mouths. I am not kidding, that went on with these 6 for about three hours, it was about comical.

How do some of these people get jobs as cops?

[Guest dotsun]

I do some work at the jail on occasion down in the intake center and the cops I've seen down there are always very professional. That said, I never go there to witness the weekend crew plus the regular day crew may well act differently when a visitor is present.

I'm sure it's just like everywhere else, some people try to do their job the way it should be done and some need to be asking if you'd like fries with that. It sounds like you had more government employees that fall into the latter group with your encounter. Totally unexcusable on the part of K-Town.

[Marswolf]

Speaking off the record it has been my experience that KPD has some management problems.

[Guest Boomhower]

How do some of these people get jobs as cops?

Just a thought, but you may have been dealing with some immature and inexperienced reserve deputies. You know, the kind that for some reason can't get a real job on the force, but they make them reserves, and pull them out for events such as these, when they need the body count…..err….man power.

[Marswolf]

Hey Mike, I had a phone call from Mike McQueen from the old gun shop. He was pleased to see the outcome of your case in the Knoxville paper.

He tried to sign up here but using a yahoo.com email address apparently caused a security problem or something. Something about spam control?

Any ideas, Tungsten?

[TGO David]

His spam filter probably blocked the email that the forum sends out to activate an account. Yahoo does that for some reason.

[Marswolf]

Maybe we could activate his account, since I have his email address and know he's OK? I don''t know the name he registered as.

He's a great guy and knows a LOT about guns, but he's not too much into computers.

[TGO David]

Already done.

[Marswolf]

I sent him a note saying he's good to go.

[Mike.357]

Mars,

Cool you getting Mike hooked up here, what a great guy. He sold me my last pistol.

[Mark@Sea]

ColtCCO finally updated his webpage. He got a hard time from another professional KPD officer... he is receiving an apology from the chief, and the assailant - I mean, officer - is getting remedial training and a note in his record jacket. Additionally, next month their in-house training will again bring up that permit holders in TN do NOT have to carry concealed.

I'm disappointed the officer wasn't fired. He openly stated in front of a number of bystanders that he would make up a reason to put Colt in jail for the evening.

Actually, when I heard about POP (that is, being jailed on any number of made up charges, for 'pissing off the police') - and I heard this from an officer - I lost some respect for law enforcement. When I found that the department in question had no problem with making POP a felony (in the event, someone who they knew wasn't involved with the crime was charged, because they declined to offer testimony against the perpetrator) I pretty much lost it all together.

The source of my info was pretty much the horses' mouth - the detective investigating the case.

A pity, really. At one time, I thought most LEO's were pretty much "Officer Friendly". Now I regard them as tax collectors (traffic infractions) with a lust for absolute power.

[towerclimber37]

ColtCCO finally updated his webpage. He got a hard time from another professional KPD officer... he is receiving an apology from the chief, and the assailant - I mean, officer - is getting remedial training and a note in his record jacket. Additionally, next month their in-house training will again bring up that permit holders in TN do NOT have to carry concealed.

I'm disappointed the officer wasn't fired. He openly stated in front of a number of bystanders that he would make up a reason to put Colt in jail for the evening.

Actually, when I heard about POP (that is, being jailed on any number of made up charges, for 'pissing off the police') - and I heard this from an officer - I lost some respect for law enforcement. When I found that the department in question had no problem with making POP a felony (in the event, someone who they knew wasn't involved with the crime was charged, because they declined to offer testimony against the perpetrator) I pretty much lost it all together.

The source of my info was pretty much the horses' mouth - the detective investigating the case.

A pity, really. At one time, I thought most LEO's were pretty much "Officer Friendly". Now I regard them as tax collectors (traffic infractions) with a lust for absolute power.

who? what? clue me in on this! what website?

man..I feel like a tiny baby in a topless bar.

[Guest dotsun]

who? what? clue me in on this! what website?

man..I feel like a tiny baby in a topless bar.

Here are a couple of links, the first one is to the original blog: http://www.coltcco.com/?p=180

And here's a shortcut to the last post that's linked from that page: http://www.saysuncle.com/archives/2007/09/20/results/

[Guest Phantom6]

man..I feel like a tiny baby in a topless bar.

I found one of your baby pictures-

Little Tower

[Mike.357]

At one time, I thought most LEO's were pretty much "Officer Friendly". Now I regard them as tax collectors (traffic infractions) with a lust for absolute power.

I feel you bud. And the real shame is that I know my feeling are based on the actions of less than ten officers in one event. But I do not know how my attitude about it will ever be better. And none of the others did anything to make things better.

[Marswolf]

Over the years I have developed a tremendous respect for professionally acting officers and extreme disgust for those who do not act professionally.

I have told pretty much all of my LEO friends and acquaintances that I consider the current practice of paying for much of their salary through traffic citations to be degrading to their integrity and the respect for their position.

[towerclimber37]

I'm inclined to agree Mars. If we were to seek a different means of paying them it would give them the incentive to be a PEACE officer instead of a POLICE officer...which in many instances could lead to a greater support for our LEOS as well as less danger for them, for citizens and a safer society as a whole.

[DaveTN]

I have told pretty much all of my LEO friends and acquaintances that I consider the current practice of paying for much of their salary through traffic citations to be degrading to their integrity and the respect for their position.

I'm inclined to agree Mars. If we were to seek a different means of paying them it would give them the incentive to be a PEACE officer instead of a POLICE officer...which in many instances could lead to a greater support for our LEOS as well as less danger for them, for citizens and a safer society as a whole.

Your Police Chief or Sheriff is charged not only with keeping the citizens safe from criminals, but also keeping the streets safe for motorists.

You need to look at who kills and injures more people in you community; criminals or traffic offenders. You then need to see how the CLEO allocates his manpower. Then you can go in and have an informed conversation with him.

Cops don’t make any money off tickets (except those that rack up the court overtime) it goes to the city, county and state governments. If you cut the number of tickets that are written do you think the government will cut its budget? No… property taxes will be increased if that happened.

I’m good with the traffic offenders paying that part of the bill; I don’t want it tacked onto my property taxes.