Glocks and things like kabooms, firing out of battery, etc...

[Marswolf]

I'll agree with you guys, Glocks are accurate and shoot well, if differently than other handguns. And they blow up when people get stupid. There is just less margin of safety if you do have a brain fart.

Glocks are wonderful.

- signed "Lefty"

[Urse]

I'll agree with you guys, Glocks are accurate and shoot well, if differently than other handguns. And they blow up when people get stupid. There is just less margin of safety if you do have a brain fart.

Glocks are wonderful.

- signed "Lefty"

Who are you and what have you done with Marswolf?

[DaveTN]

Glocks only blow up when the shooter lacks common sense...

And they blow up when people get stupid. There is just less margin of safety if you do have a brain fart.

How would a case failure or firing out of battery be a users fault?

[gunsablazin]

Because most of those guns weren’t around when Glock came on the scene. And Glock’s were cheap compared to quality handguns. You can justify anything if it is cheap enough; just ask anyone that has a 9mm for self defense.

There is no reason today to settle for something questionable. Take a look at the M&P; far superior to a Glock and it’s cheap and safe.

I have been considering a Glock 34 for SSP in IDPA. I'm not a true Glock fan, but it is a popular platform in IDPA. This post makes me want to shoot an M&P, I have fired an XD, they are OK, but don't seem superior to the Glock.What makes the M&P so hot? Or do I have to shoot one and see? I shoot a 1911 .45 in CDP and am a long time 1911 shooter, so I'm not easily impressed with all these "plastic fantastic" pistols.

Robin

[towerclimber37]

Dave, I think they were referring to the people who fail to clear their weapon before they disassemble it for cleaning.

[TGO David]

I have been considering a Glock 34 for SSP in IDPA. I'm not a true Glock fan, but it is a popular platform in IDPA. This post makes me want to shoot an M&P, I have fired an XD, they are OK, but don't seem superior to the Glock.What makes the M&P so hot? Or do I have to shoot one and see? I shoot a 1911 .45 in CDP and am a long time 1911 shooter, so I'm not easily impressed with all these "plastic fantastic" pistols.

Robin

I'm a 1911 guy at heart and I loved my M&P 40. I sold it so that I could pick up an M&P 9mm "Pro" once they get off their butts and release it. The Pro is supposed to be analogous to the Glock 34. Long slide, long barrel, 9mm. Still though, Julie Goloski doesn't seem to be hampered any by the 4" 9mm although I'd be curious to see what her hardware recipe is. Light loads, light spring, heavy guide rod perhaps?

Anyway, the M&P just felt right to me. Give it a try; you might really like it as well.

[Guest Disney]

I have 2 1911's and an M&P45 right now. All three feel great in my hands. I have large hands though, so not all guns feel right to me. My hands wrap too far around a lot of them. I use the medium grips on the M&P and it just feels perfect. The smalls also feel nice, but the large is too big even for my fat paws.

I think i make tighter groups with my Kimber than anything else. The M&P a VERY close second and the Springfield 1911 right behind that. The M&P is still breaking in though and might improve and I might improve with it as well. Generally i shoot a clip through one,. then pick up the other and shoot a clip through it. I do know that since i've finally disassembled and cleaned/lubed the M&P it sure "feels" a lot smoother in a dry fire. I tink that might help my accuracy with it as well.

Bottom line, I'd sure try out an M&P before I wrote off plastic guns altogether.

[molonlabetn]

How would a case failure or firing out of battery be a users fault?

Good point.

I don't know anyone who mics all of their ammo before loading and firing it... and there is no way to verify the powder load, so if a handgun blows up, it can only be attributed to a design flaw or defect of the gun, or improperly loaded / out-of-spec ammo. I suppose the user's intelligence might come into play in terms of not clearing a squib load and firing another cartridge right behind a lodged bullet, or the questionability of buying a particular brand in the first place...

Having a negligent discharge is certainly a result of a lapse in judgement, or incompetence in the first place...

[Marswolf]

How would a case failure or firing out of battery be a users fault?

Well, I'll give half a point here.

If Glock owners use quality factory ammunition, they are unlikely to have a problem. But I have bought cheap factory ammo that would not allow my USP to go fully into battery and the gun prevented its firing. That's what should happen. It might have been disastrous if I was shooting a Glock rather than a USP.

This just shouldn't be a problem that the user has to think about.

[GhostDog]

Hello Mars and Molon, I'm back.

We've had this conversation before. Some folks like Glocks, some seem to hate them. I fall in the former group. I like simple tools that work, it's just that simple. If I decide to buy art, it won't be guns or cars.

I've personally seen a round fired in a Glock 19 with an obstructed barrel (another round fired behind a squib load which was a reloading mistake). It bulged the barrel but the gun didn't self destruct. The guns are very robust and will take a lot of abuse. I've seen it myself.

If you don't like Glocks, SIGs, whatever... get a different gun. Please spare the rest of us your justification for your bias.

[Mike.357]

Generally i shoot a clip through one,. then pick up the other and shoot a clip through it.

I thought they used magazines.

Someone define

you fully support the round in the chamber

I am not sure I understand what this means.

[Guest Phantom6]

I thought they used magazines.

quote]

Thank you Mike! A clip, which for the uninitiated is used to load a magazine, is a piece of steel that is left on the battlefield either after the magazine is loaded or in the case of rifles like the M1 Garand is ejected from the magazine as the last round in the magazine is used. A magazine on the other hand is a storage device for ammunition which makes it available for use by the action of a firearm. This is Firearms 101.

If I need and ask for a clip, someone damned well better be handing me a clip because handing me a magazine will be of no immediate use to me and in a crunch may get me killed.

NOTE: If I am killed due to someones inability to use proper terminology when refering to a critical piece of equipment, I vow to haunt them and their entire family including their dog mercilessly and eternally.

Once again, we can thank Hollywood for perpetuating bad firearms information.

[/rant]

Afterthought- No, this is not an afterthought it's an EDIT (and an illustration) which allows me to add an afterthought to my post as is indicated by the Edit flag below this post

OK. Medication is kicking in. Calm is beginning to flow throughout my mind and body. Feeling much better now.

[Marswolf]

Please spare the rest of us your justification for your bias.

Let me think about this. Should I shut up about the truth concerning Glocks to make you happy?

........

Nope, don't think I'll do that. I think I'll warn people instead.

I talk about facts. If there is a bias, it isn't mine. Other folks are the ones who choose to ignore Glock's safety faults.

If you go back and read my posts, you will find that I have no problem with Glocks being used by LE as a duty weapon. I have dozens of LEO friends who use them without a problem. They use quality factory ammunition. But a lot of the public cuts corners buying cheap ammo or reloads. You can get away with that more in non-Glock handguns.

I'm glad the G19 held up for you even with the reloading error causing it. I highly doubt that would been the outcome with a G23.

This topic is specifically about Glock Kabooms and firing out of battery. If you want to pretend that they don't happen, feel free to go blow your hand off. But don't expect me to lie by omission. I suggest you try Glock Talk. They seem to be oblivious to any reality about your favorite handgun over there.

[GhostDog]

Mars,

I knew you couldn't resist responding after I threw in that last line!

[Guest Disney]

Well I guess hollywood ruined me so i'll stop posting on this board.

No.. On second thought... Eat my shorts.

[Marswolf]

Hey Mike, I'm not sure if you are serious about not understanding the full supported chamber or not. But I'll explain it for anyone who doesn't know what we are talking about.

In most handguns the chamber that holds the round comes close to fully surrounding the cartridge. The breech face then closes behind the round so that the cartridge is pretty well sealed off and when fired, the metal in the gun contains the pressure of the powder combustion.

In a Glock, and some other handguns, there is an area where the feed ramp intrudes on the chamber that leaves part of the cartridge unsupported so that the pressure of the round must be contained only by the brass case of the round in that location. This aids in helping reliably feed the round into the chamber but leaves a weak area for an overloaded or weakened brass to fail catastrophically and destroy the handgun.

Here are a couple of shots I took of a G30. I fully inserted the cartridge and took a picture, then marked the brass where the unsupported area is and photographed the round.

[Urse]

Any firearm can have a kB! Hey Mike the venerable 1911 also does not have a fully supported chamber. We have had this argument hundreds(thousands?) of times. The only time that this is an issue is when you have a high pressure or overloaded round. That can happen to any gun. I would suggest that one of the reasons you hear about it more in Glocks is because of the sheer numbers of them in 40S&W(definately the #1 culprit caliber). I could make an argument that any gun is unsafe. Here is a few examples.

H&K USP40(fully supported chamber) and reloaded ammunition.

Fully supported chamber really does not change diddly squat with a bad reload.

H&K USP45(fully supported chamber) and reloaded ammunition

H&K .45 go kaboom!

Colt Anaconda 44 Magnum revolver(fully supported chamber) and a double loaded round:

Ouch! Now that is gonna leave a mark.

Charter Arms .38(fully supported chamber) and bad reloads

and that is just a little old .38!

Unknown 1911(non fully supported chamber)once again bad ammunition.

Everybody knows that 1911's are the best gun in the world!....hmmm

And finally how about an M1A and bad ammunition.

Dang! and that is very much like a rifle this country uses to defend us.

My point is that any gun can have a kB! The Glock is not perfect by any means but many people go overboard as to it's faults. If you like them(like me) great. If not, that is great also. I hardly think you are saving your fellow man by spreading what is ultimately your own personal bias towards them. But what the heck, I am smart enough to form my own opinion so "carry" on(pun intended).

[The Rabbi]

I dunno, Urse. I hear George Bush wants a Glock when he leaves office. That makes them eeevil....

[Guest Steelharp]

I wish the pics of the Anaconda, Charter Arms and M1A would show up...

Well... second time through, they did... WOW!!!

[Urse]

How hard can it be to get a frickin' Glock people?

[towerclimber37]

Well I guess hollywood ruined me so i'll stop posting on this board.

No.. On second thought... Eat my shorts.

hahahahah now THAT was funny.

that being said, I'll come visit you when you shoot yourself in the foot or something.

[Mike.357]

Mars, I was serious in my question about the chamber. I thought that was the story but I really did not know.

I believe my S&W Sigma also has this feature. It is rated to shoot +P but I have not done that.

Now from what I read the .40S&W round in a Glock is the problem. For whatever reason they seem to have a flaw in the design for this caliber. But the 9MM in a Glock works fine.

Is it true the 1911A1 is also unsupported? And I assume this is safe because of the load carried in .45ACP?

I think the moral of the story is to not use hot loads in Glocks.

I am glad I neither like or dislike Glocks, helps me stay out of the arguments.

[Guest Disney]

Out of morbid curiosity, I took the barrel out of my 1911's and checked them. Both are supported with maybe 1/16" showing at the ramp. I would not be surprised to find that some 1911's have an unsupported barrel just by the wide variety of mfg's and different designs.

For reference, the M&P45 shows about the same as the 1911 also right in the ramp.

I tried taking pics, but my camera is the weaksauce. And yes.... Weaksauce is the correct term for that. Hollywood didn't mess me up on that one!

[Guest GregRN]

Now from what I read the .40S&W round in a Glock is the problem. For whatever reason they seem to have a flaw in the design for this caliber. But the 9MM in a Glock works fine.

My Dad has a new Glock 23 (.40S&W) with a fully supported chamber. I checked it myself. Sorry, that I can't get easy access for pictures, but it was completely supported. I was trying to show him an unsupported chamber and had to put my foot in my mouth. (Didn't taste good) On the other hand, my 9mm Glock has the same unsupported portion of chamber that is visible in the pictures from Marswolf's post.

[Marswolf]

There are quite a few guns that do not fully support the cartridge in the chamber. It is the extent of the lack of support that gets Glocks. And the problem generally is overloaded ammunition. But to make the point yet again, you can get away with a lot more stupidity with other guns than you can with a Glock. They just have less safety factor - by design. Imagine what a Glock (and you) would have looked like that fired the rounds that destroyed the USPs.

One of the reasons Glock S&W 40s have a problem is that they basically took the 9mm handguns and removed metal to make the 40. That means a weaker chamber and barrel than the 9mm in a higher pressure round. They could have taken the 45 ACP handgun and modify its design but they didn't. Compare this to the H&K USP that was designed as a 40 but tooled to make the 9mm.

I'm glad Glock finally fixed the unsupported chamber thingy. It took a while. Close to two decades. After-market barrels like Bar-sto have been available to fix the problem for some time. Of course that doesn't address the barrel/chamber strength question, just the chamber support one. Still, it should help a lot to not leave much of a place for the chamber to begin tearing. If they also fixed the out of battery problem, that would also be a big plus and pretty much just leave the lack of double-strike problem that all striker fired handguns, as far as I know, have.

Incidentally http://jerrythegeek.blogspot.com/2006/08/kaboom.html has an interesting look at this phenomenon relating to IPSC.