Asked for HCP while on your property?

[Punisher84]

Even if it was legal to shoot someone in the name of protecting one's propert, morally I don't think I could do it.

Man I could. Not trying to sound macho and believe me I've thought of it, but I just hate criminals. I despise people that prey on others, no matter the crime. That is MY stuff I've worked for. They can't have it.

I also think if a few people started getting capped stealing cars and televisions crime might just go down a smidge.

[Fallguy]

Even if it was legal to shoot someone in the name of protecting one's propert, morally I don't think I could do it.

Since sometimes attitude is hard to tell in the typed word....I don't mean this in a smart way.

Have you ever had anything stolen or come home to find your house broke in to?

If not, see if you feel different after that.

[macville]

You can't shoot over property period. The law merely says if you are justified in using deadly force your are justified in using that force to protect property. It was nothing more than a statement by the legislature saying "If you walk up on someone burglarizing your car and they run at you with a screwdriver a DA can't say you shot them just to protect your Acura."

Your statement doesn't really make any sense. If someone attacks you it's not about protecting property, it's about self defense. Property would not come up in the issue because they attacked you, it just so happens that they were breaking into your car first.

BTW, I wonder if you could shoot someone on your property if you found them breaking in/stealing something if it might not lower the crime rate? (and trespassing would not count as enough, otherwise I could have shot the tree trimmers the other day) Not to mention that it would probably lower the burden on the justice system!

Matthew

Edited August 9, 2009 by macville

[Fallguy]

Your statement doesn't really make any sense. If someone attacks you it's not about protecting property, it's about self defense. Property would not come up in the issue because they attacked you, it just so happens that they were breaking into your car first.

BTW, I wonder if you could shoot someone on your property if you found them breaking in/stealing something if it might not lower the crime rate? (and trespassing would not count as enough, otherwise I could have shot the tree trimmers the other day) Not to mention that it would probably lower the burden on the justice system!

Matthew

There are situations in where you can (or at least it appear) you are defending your life and property at the same time. Such as a car jacking or someone that broke into your home and after you shoot them you see they had your DVD player in their hand.

The law before said you couldn't use deadly force to protect property period, so if there was one of the dual protection (life and property) situations a DA could have tried to charge you with using deadly force to protect property if he wanted to. Now the law just clarifies that if use deadly force in a self-defense situation it is ok if you happen to be defending property at the same time.

[DaveTN]

Your statement doesn't really make any sense. If someone attacks you it's not about protecting property, it's about self defense. Property would not come up in the issue because they attacked you, it just so happens that they were breaking into your car first.

Correct. You can remove the “property†issue and you still have the “justified use of deadly force†issue whether you are on your property or not. It has all the same requirements as before. You can confront someone stealing something and they become an attacker.

<O:p</O:p

However, the castle laws about whether or not you can shoot someone on your property do not give you carte blanche to kill anyone in your house or on your property. In some cases they can remove the question of whether you were in danger of death or great bodily harm.

<O:p</O:p

For example… You confront a burglar in your home and you shoot him. Being in danger of death or great bodily harm may be assumed.

However, you come home and find the 15 year old kid next door burglarizing your home. He runs for the door trying to escape and you fill him for of holes. I contend you will find yourself standing trial.

<O:p</O:p

I think most of us will agree that you should be able to shoot criminals. I know I have no problem with it. But that doesn’t mean its okay under the law.

[Fallguy]

Dave makes very good points.

The presumptions in the self-defense laws are just that, it doesn't mean you can't be charged. It just means if you are the DA has to prove it wasn't reasonable for you to be in fear, instead of you having to prove you were.

The neighbor kid running away is a good example.

[Punisher84]

What Dave and Fallguy said.

[memphismason]

Since sometimes attitude is hard to tell in the typed word....I don't mean this in a smart way.

Have you ever had anything stolen or come home to find your house broke in to?

If not, see if you feel different after that.

Yes sir.

In 1999 I walked out of church and my car was gone and there was broken glass in the parking lot. We got a phone call from a good samaritan about 3 weeks later and he said it has been aboned on a street he travels everyday to and from work for about 2 weeks so he stopped to have a look and notice the column busted and figured it had been stolen. He looked in my glove box, saw my registration and looked my name up in the phone book and gave me a call. It was about $2500 worth of damage and I had it up and running in 3 weeks.

In September of 2002 (Labor day weekend) I was working on the house we were about to move in (the wife and I married Dec. of 2002), and when I walked in the front door, the back door was wide open. The fridge and frezer door was open (all the food was spoiled), there was some in the toilet and I had my compound bow, arrows, two TVs, two VCRs, a DVD player, some knives I had been collecting, a pellet rifle, and some more little odd and in stuff.

I was at the house every weekend and most nights working on it, but this occurred during a 5 day stretch where I wasn't there.

It bothered me and I stayed at the house every night from then on, and sat up with a shotgun next to me, just waiting for the bastard or bastards to return, (because there still were things of value that they didn't get).

So yes I do understand, and I still don't think that I own any piece of property that is more valuable than a life, criminal or not.

Now my wife, little girl, myself, friends and family....I would not think twice about ending a life to protect theirs.

Edited August 10, 2009 by memphismason

[Punisher84]

Yes sir.

In 1999 I walked out of church and my car was gone and there was broken glass in the parking lot. We got a phone call from a good samartian about 3 weeks later and he said it has been aboned on a street he travels everyday to and from work for about 2 weeks so he stopped to have a look and notice the column busted and figured it had been stolen. He looked in my glove box, saw my registration and looked my name up in the phone book and gave me a call. It was about $2500 worth of damage and I had it up and running in 3 weeks.

In September of 2002 (Labor day weekend) I was working on the house we were about to move in (the wife and I married Dec. of 2002), and when I walked in the front door, the back door was wide open. The fridge and frezer door was open (all the food was spoiled), there was some in the toilet and I had my compound bow, arrows, two TVs, two VCRs, a DVD player, some knives I had been collecting, a pellet rifle, and some more little odd and in stuff.

I was at the house every weekend and most nights working on it, but this occurred during a 5 day stretch where I wasn't there.

It bothered me and I stayed at the house every night from then on, and sat up with a shotgun next to me, just waiting for the bastard or bastards to return, (because there still were things of value that they didn't get).

So yes I do understand, and I still don't think that I own any piece of property that is more valuable than a life, criminal or not.

Now my wife, little girl, myself, friends and family....I would not think twice about ending a life to protect theirs.

I think that's admirable. I just despise criminals maybe even to a fault and the thought of shooting one over property just doesn't give me much of a stir.

[Guest justme]

you don't need a permit to carry on your property, you can carry it openly or concealed anywhere on your property as I understand the law.

they can ask if you have a permit, but on your property they cannot I don't think make you produce it--because you don't need one to carry on your property.

[Fallguy]

Yes sir.

In 1999 I walked out of church and my car was gone and there was broken glass in the parking lot. We got a phone call from a good samaritan about 3 weeks later and he said it has been aboned on a street he travels everyday to and from work for about 2 weeks so he stopped to have a look and notice the column busted and figured it had been stolen. He looked in my glove box, saw my registration and looked my name up in the phone book and gave me a call. It was about $2500 worth of damage and I had it up and running in 3 weeks.

In September of 2002 (Labor day weekend) I was working on the house we were about to move in (the wife and I married Dec. of 2002), and when I walked in the front door, the back door was wide open. The fridge and frezer door was open (all the food was spoiled), there was some in the toilet and I had my compound bow, arrows, two TVs, two VCRs, a DVD player, some knives I had been collecting, a pellet rifle, and some more little odd and in stuff.

I was at the house every weekend and most nights working on it, but this occurred during a 5 day stretch where I wasn't there.

It bothered me and I stayed at the house every night from then on, and sat up with a shotgun next to me, just waiting for the bastard or bastards to return, (because there still were things of value that they didn't get).

So yes I do understand, and I still don't think that I own any piece of property that is more valuable than a life, criminal or not.

Now my wife, little girl, myself, friends and family....I would not think twice about ending a life to protect theirs.

Very good then sir.

You and I will just simply have diffrerent views on this then.

I hope neither of us, or anyone on this board, ever have to the feel the violation of theft again.

[memphismason]

Very good then sir.

You and I will just simply have diffrerent views on this then.

I hope neither of us, or anyone on this board, ever have to the feel the violation of theft again.

Agreed

[Guest db99wj]

If I hear something going bump in the night, I go to investigate, which we all do, will do at some point, we will have our gun with us. Once we get to where the noise is we are going to run into a few different things possibly. A animal making a noise, wind making a noise, some other natural act making noise, or someone that is not suppose to be there making noise. Our reaction is going to be this, we yell at animal to go away, we secure what is making noise due to the nature, or we pull our gun up on the person that is not suppose to be there. I assume my life is in danger and until that can be determined not the case, my gun will be focused on that person. I don't know if that person has a knife, gun, hand grenade, whatever, I just don't know. My gun is pointed and I am on the phone to 911. Until the cops get there, the gun will remain pointed. If BG decides to leave, that is his decision, I won't shoot him for leaving, but he has to decide what his next move is. I consider my self not to be safe until he is gone, or in the custody of the police. I am not "arresting" him, not "detaining" him, not even going to speak to him, but my gun is going to be pointing at him. He might say he is unarmed, he is just there for a stereo to by crack whores, I don't care, I have not searched him (nor will I), I don't know what he is hiding. If he goes for the inside of a jacket, waste band, etc, the results are not going to be good.

If I walk out and see some BG running out of my carport into the street with something of mine, I will not shoot them, that is my decision. I hope I have the ability to make good decisions during a very high stress situation like she did.

As far as the OP, I think she did good, good outcome, she didn't have to kill anyone (justifed or not, life in danger or no, that has got to be a tough thing to get through). Did she handle it perfectly....maybe not, but she is alive and so are her kids. The question from LEO about permit, should not matter, but you are required to show it if asked. Don't really know the reasoning, might have been to just to make sure everyone was who they were suppose to be and is quicker instead of waiting on a full back ground check.

[E4 No More]

If I hear something going bump in the night, I go to investigate, which we all do, will do at some point, we will have our gun with us. Once we get to where the noise is we are going to run into a few different things possibly. A animal making a noise, wind making a noise, some other natural act making noise, or someone that is not suppose to be there making noise. Our reaction is going to be this, we yell at animal to go away, we secure what is making noise due to the nature, or we pull our gun up on the person that is not suppose to be there. I assume my life is in danger and until that can be determined not the case, my gun will be focused on that person. I don't know if that person has a knife, gun, hand grenade, whatever, I just don't know. My gun is pointed and I am on the phone to 911. Until the cops get there, the gun will remain pointed. If BG decides to leave, that is his decision, I won't shoot him for leaving, but he has to decide what his next move is. I consider my self not to be safe until he is gone, or in the custody of the police. I am not "arresting" him, not "detaining" him, not even going to speak to him, but my gun is going to be pointing at him. He might say he is unarmed, he is just there for a stereo to by crack whores, I don't care, I have not searched him (nor will I), I don't know what he is hiding. If he goes for the inside of a jacket, waste band, etc, the results are not going to be good.

If I walk out and see some BG running out of my carport into the street with something of mine, I will not shoot them, that is my decision. I hope I have the ability to make good decisions during a very high stress situation like she did.

As far as the OP, I think she did good, good outcome, she didn't have to kill anyone (justifed or not, life in danger or no, that has got to be a tough thing to get through). Did she handle it perfectly....maybe not, but she is alive and so are her kids. The question from LEO about permit, should not matter, but you are required to show it if asked. Don't really know the reasoning, might have been to just to make sure everyone was who they were suppose to be and is quicker instead of waiting on a full back ground check.

+1,000,000!

[JayC]

you don't need a permit to carry on your property, you can carry it openly or concealed anywhere on your property as I understand the law.

they can ask if you have a permit, but on your property they cannot I don't think make you produce it--because you don't need one to carry on your property.

That would be incorrect on the producing the permit on request. State law currently does not place any limitations on where they can ask you for your permit, so yes they can legally require you to produce your permit on your own property even though you don't have to have one to carry there.

This is one of the laws that is poorly worded and hopefully we can get changed in the future.

[Fallguy]

That would be incorrect on the producing the permit on request. State law currently does not place any limitations on where they can ask you for your permit, so yes they can legally require you to produce your permit on your own property even though you don't have to have one to carry there.

This is one of the laws that is poorly worded and hopefully we can get changed in the future.

I have to agree...

Technically there is nothing in the HCP law that gives an exception on where you are at the time when a LEO ask to see your permit.

But...as we all agree you don't have to have one on your property...and had this lady not had one....wouldn't have made a difference.

[Guest jwb68]

nevermind

[Guest Phantom6]

39-11-611(a)(4) defines a residence as "a dwelling in which a person resides, either temporarily or permanently, or is visiting as an invited guest, or any dwelling, building or other appurtenance within the curtilage of the residence"

The word curtilage is 14th century word meaning "a piece of ground (as a yard or courtyard) within the fence surrounding a house." This has been viewed under the laws of this state and being any building type whether it is attached to the residence or not that is adjacent to the residence. Basically if you can throw a rock at it and hit it, it is adjacent to and considered covered under the curtilage definition. The barn on the "back 40" is not.

Considering this, then TCA 39-11-611 © which says "Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury within a residence, business, dwelling or vehicle is presumed to have held a reasonable belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury" covers this woman in covering the subject until the police arrive. She can certainly order him to the ground for her own protection and again for her own protection she can keep a firearm trained on him until back-up arrives.

All of this working exactly the way the law and it's current interpretation by the courts prescribes will depend upon the responding officers, their knowledge of the law and what their supervisors order them to do. Some know it and some don't. The time to argue your case is not on scene however. Feel free to state your rights under the law but if they don't believe you are correct or their supervisor tells them something to the contrary, simply do what you are told and go with the flow. Your life will be much easier that night. Believe me.

I'm not going to shoot anyone over property but I will absolutely shoot into the ground anyone that I reasonably believe will cause me death or imminent serious bodily injury. If the individual I have proned out on my living room floor or in my carport tries to get up, knowing that I have a gun trained on him, I will reasonably have to assume that he is out of his mind and may attempt to kill me or cause me imminent serious bodily injury in a murderous, psychotic rage so he will, not may, but absolutely will be shot.

[Fallguy]

FWIW

39-11-311(a)(2) defines curtilage for purposes of the self-defense law.

It says...

“Curtilage†means the area surrounding a dwelling that is necessary, convenient and habitually used for family purposes and for those activities associated with the sanctity of a person's home.

But another thing to note, the presumptions in part © apply if you use deadly force within the places listed. So obviously you would have to be within those places yourself for the deadly force to have been used within. In other words, if you have a detached shop in your back yard and someone has broke into it while you where/are within your house, the presumption would not apply. However if you were in the shop working on something and someone broke in, then the presumption would apply.

In the above I am simply talking about the presumption of you being in fear of imminent death or serious bodily harm. As we all know if you are in a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily harm anywhere you can use deadly force.

[Guest faust921]

Many years ago when I was a grad student in SC, I came home late one night from the library and saw a guy in the bushes peeping into my apartment that was in a 3 story home. My girlfriend was sleeping on the couch. I ignored him like I did not see him and went into my apartment and got one of those big 5 D cell mag lights and went back outside. I confronted this guy, like I was going to bash his head in. I told him to get away from my house and he ran off.

That same night a girl disappeared after a U2 concert in the same town and was never seen again. I will always regret not holding this guy for the police, as he could have been wanted, he could have even been involved later that evening in the woman's disappearance, I will never know. He knew where I lived and I knew nothing about him. Today, I wouldn't put myself through the hassle of stopping a car break in, because I'm insured for theft but not for zealous DAs, yet I think we as citizens have a responsibility to ourselves and each other to make it possible for police to process these criminals if only to find out who they are, and I sure want to know who they are for my own safety. As far as pointing a gun, there is no way I am taking the bead off of a criminal until my safety is assured, you never know what they have in their pockets. This idea that I should be expected to hold such a high standard, splitting hair over "detainment" and this and that. When career criminals do less than minimum time and are put back on the street to victimize the defenseless, it's just too bad if some guy has to sweat it out for a few minutes thinking about how big that hole is in the front of my gun. A few minutes, a few moments, who can really figure out such a stressful event. I will just holster it right before the police arrive. It's my word against some repeat offender dirtbag, and my answer to any questions the police may have about my gun and how I use it is summed up in five simple words "I have nothing to say". Then call your liar, I mean lawyer. I also learned how useful a dog with good ears is.

[gnmwilliams]

This, my friends, is a good thread!

But I would have to say I would have done the same thing the lady did because you never know if he's gonna shoot you and then continue to break into your car. If he runs, so be it, I'll let him run. But until that happens, my gun will be pointed center mass. Too many people get shot even after they hand over thier stuff.

[molonlabetn]

Seems to me that all parties handled the situation exceptionally... I would expect to be asked for identification no matter where I was, if involved in a situation like this, and it only makes sense to ask for a HCP vs. DL, since it was appropriate to the situation. Kudos to the mom and the officers.

[Guest Caveman]

This, my friends, is a good thread!

But I would have to say I would have done the same thing the lady did because you never know if he's gonna shoot you and then continue to break into your car. If he runs, so be it, I'll let him run. But until that happens, my gun will be pointed center mass. Too many people get shot even after they hand over thier stuff.

I agree, great thread.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Caveman

[dralarms]

I agree, great thread.

agreed.

Edited January 17, 2010 by dralarms

[Guest kennymc]

I agree, great thread.

I don't have to worry about this situation though...

You might not want to be saying that on a public board were it will be cached by google for the rest of time. Just a bit of CYA.