Asked for HCP while on your property?

[Guest AmericanWorkMule]

A lady at work caught a guy trying to break into her car in the middle of the night. It was parked under her car port right next to her bedroom window. While her kid talked to 911, she stepped out the kitchen door, which was a step away from her car, and held her pistol on him until the law showed up, about 2 minutes she said.

As the cops approached the thief at gun point, she laid her pistol on the hood of her car. They never told her to lower her weapon or directed any orders to her. They cuffed the thief and put him in their car.

Being a single Mom with kids, they didn't give her grief for holding him at gun point and threatening to shoot him dead. But they did ask if she had a permit and wanted to see it. She showed it to them and they just glanced at it and handed it back.

Why would they do that if you're on your own property? Was it just to cover themselves for the report? Sounds odd. Would they have asked for a permit if she was Granny Clampet toting a double barrel shotgun?

[Guest redbarron06]

I am pretty sure you dont need a HCP on your property.

Looking at it from a different point of view, it may have been to make sure that she was not a felon and legal to own a gun, HCP pretty much verifies that. If she lives in an area with lots of trouble than they could be just covering the bases. I am sure the criminals dont mind holding somebody at gun point until the police show up and then dont realize that they are also breaking the law. Remimber we got folks calling 911 to report that a drug dealer ripped them off and sold them herbs instead of pot.

[dralarms]

It takes less time to look at the HCP than it dows to "run" somebody to see if they can legally have the gun. I wouldn't worry to much about it. They were not trying to harass her, just covering all the bases

[memphismason]

Playing devils advocate here.....The police are not there to investigate the mom.

[MikeW]

Maybe they wanted to verify that she could fire it ...and not just point it at someone. The HCP showed them that she had recived "training" and that she had shot it enough to qualify for the HCP.

[Smith]

Playing devils advocate here.....The police are not there to investigate the mom.

They are there to investigate the call. They have no way of knowing who's who and what exactly is going on. To assume is a good way for them to wind up dead or someone else after they leave. It's sad to say but as litigious as our society has become they are as paranoid about CYA as everybody else, if not more so.

[Guest redbarron06]

Playing devils advocate here.....The police are not there to investigate the mom.

Playing the same,

A citizen is not allowed to enforce an arrest by gunpoint. They could have charged her with illegal arrest, brandonishing a firearm, and assult with deadly force.

When they showed up and she was pointing a gun at another person the investigation begins.

[Guest mikedwood]

Yeah, I'm thinkin if I was holding someone in my driveway at gunpoint that I'd be going to jail along with them.

I don't believe in Tennessee you have the right to protect property "outside" your home or a car if you aren't in it physically.

Apparently you can fire through the door during a home invasion though.

[Smith]

Playing the same,

A citizen is not allowed to enforce an arrest by gunpoint. They could have charged her with illegal arrest, brandonishing a firearm, and assult with deadly force.

When they showed up and she was pointing a gun at another person the investigation begins.

In my HCP class, they told us if we had to forcefully arrest then use the gun only until they couldn't see it then only make them think you still have it on them. Technically you can not hold at gunpoint, but you can forcefully detain in a citizen arrest if it's a felony.

[JayC]

She's not required to have a HCP to carry a firearm on her property under TN law... But the way the current law is written if she does have a HCP she is required to produce it (while carrying a firearm) when requested by a LEO (The current state law places no limits on this part of the statue) even if on her own property.

As many others have stated for a lot of officers HCP in TN = probably a "good guy" and they tend to cut HCP holders some slack that they might not cut somebody without one.

In this case it was probably a short cut for the officer to determine they were dealing with a good guy/gal. Nothing wrong with asking to see it, now if they had arrested her because she left it in her house, or some other silliness like that, then yeah it would have been wrong

From the sounds of it a good encounter overall.

A lady at work caught a guy trying to break into her car in the middle of the night. It was parked under her car port right next to her bedroom window. While her kid talked to 911, she stepped out the kitchen door, which was a step away from her car, and held her pistol on him until the law showed up, about 2 minutes she said.

As the cops approached the thief at gun point, she laid her pistol on the hood of her car. They never told her to lower her weapon or directed any orders to her. They cuffed the thief and put him in their car.

Being a single Mom with kids, they didn't give her grief for holding him at gun point and threatening to shoot him dead. But they did ask if she had a permit and wanted to see it. She showed it to them and they just glanced at it and handed it back.

Why would they do that if you're on your own property? Was it just to cover themselves for the report? Sounds odd. Would they have asked for a permit if she was Granny Clampet toting a double barrel shotgun?

[Guest AmericanWorkMule]

I figured it was a "short cut" kind of deal for the officer but had forgotten the law part.

When I talked to the lady at work, I said I understood she had worked her ass off for what little they have but please don't confront a thief outside like that again. It could have ended up a lot more traumatic.

She said she had enough of being ripped off. Someone had poisoned her dog months ago as well as break into her car. She had pointed her pistol at a face that was peeking in her kitchen window one night. She has called the law each time do make sure everything is documented. I guess that dude didn't know you don't mess with a Momma Bear and her cubs.

She said all the thief said was he just wanted the stereo for some money. Like that was supposed to rectify the situation. The cops said he was probably the one that had been hitting the whole community recently.

I asked her what she was holding her aim on. She said he was dressed in all black with a black hoodie over his head. She aimed at the only thing she could see clearly.... his F#@king toothy grin!

Edited August 7, 2009 by AmericanWorkMule

[oldogy]

Great job by 'mom'. Great job by the LEOs who may have, on a technical point, given mom a hard time or worse, about her actions. Mom may hear more on that later, let us hope not. The most important point is that a BG is no longer prowling the neighborhood looking for fix money. This is way these situations should come down.

oldogy

[E4 No More]

As a former police officer I must ask...why does everything have to be so complicated with some folks?

Could it be that the police officer was thinking gun + identify = HCP just like he would be thinking car + identify = driver's license if he stopped her while driving?

Why does everything seem to have a nefarious angle with some on this forum when the subject is guns and police?

[Guest redbarron06]

As a former police officer I must ask...why does everything have to be so complicated with some folks?

Could it be that the police officer was thinking gun + identify = HCP just like he would be thinking car + identify = driver's license if he stopped her while driving?

Why does everything seem to have a nefarious angle with some on this forum when the subject is guns and police?

What fun would that be??

[E4 No More]

What fun would that be??

[memphismason]

As a former police officer I must ask...why does everything have to be so complicated with some folks?

Could it be that the police officer was thinking gun + identify = HCP just like he would be thinking car + identify = driver's license if he stopped her while driving?

Why does everything seem to have a nefarious angle with some on this forum when the subject is guns and police?

Settle Down, this isn't a cop bashing thread. No one is talking bad about the boys in blue.

It is simply a discussion about a situation. A situation that was handeled wrong. A person should not hold anyone at gun point....a gun should not be aimed at someone unless the trigger is about to be pulled. I do not know how I would have handeled this situation. I have often thought about it.

Also a request for a HCP in this situation is un-necessary, but that request was made and I would have complied just as the lady did in the above story.

Nothing bad here, just a discussion on things.

[E4 No More]

Settle Down, this isn't a cop bashing thread. No one is talking bad about the boys in blue.

It is simply a discussion about a situation. A situation that was handeled wrong. A person should not hold anyone at gun point....a gun should not be aimed at someone unless the trigger is about to be pulled. I do not know how I would have handeled this situation. I have often thought about it.

Also a request for a HCP in this situation is un-necessary, but that request was made and I would have complied just as the lady did in the above story.

Nothing bad here, just a discussion on things.

I'm not angry, so why do I need to settle down? I just notice a trend, and therefore I ask the question.

EDIT: Consider this...you state that the officers handled it wrong, but then say you don't know how you would have handled it.

Unless things have dramatically changed in the 16 years since I was a LEO, the police officer is not bound to arrest everyone they see breaking the law. There is such a thing as "Officer's Discretion" in play every day. If there wasn't, there'd be a heck of a lot more arrests - enough to create a police state - and your judge/prosecutor wouldn't be very happy either.

If I were the LEO on that call I would have no problem at all with that woman holding a gun on a criminal. It's woman vs man after all, but even if it were a man I still wouldn't have a problem with it. I would have identified her, taken her statement, and transported the thief to jail. Simple as that.

Edited August 7, 2009 by SWJewellTN

[Mike.357]

I would not hesitate to hold a gun on someone I catch red handed trying to steal my stuff.

All I am telling the cop is that I was definitely sure I saw a weapon in the guys pocket or waistband and I feared for my life. I am not patting anyone down as well.

So thats why the gun was on them.

[E4 No More]

I wouldn't utter the words, "You're under citizen's arrest!" It ain't my fault the guy stood there until the LEOs arrived. I just wasn't giving any ground on which I am lawfully present.

Edited August 7, 2009 by SWJewellTN

[Guest slothful1]

EDIT: Consider this...you state that the officers handled it wrong, but then say you don't know how you would have handled it.

I think he was saying that the woman handled it wrong (I happen to disagree).

[memphismason]

I think he was saying that the woman handled it wrong (I happen to disagree).

That is what I was saying.

I say that, and then think about what I would have done and her situation, and can't come up with anything better. She didn't want her stuff ripped off, and she didn't want to shoot the guy. I guess I would have to be put in that situation to find out what my reaction would be.

I am saying that I believe holding someone at gun point is not something I subscribe to doing.

[E4 No More]

I think he was saying that the woman handled it wrong (I happen to disagree).

I got that, and I disagree with it too. But, for example, I don't go around criticizing an engineer about how he/she goes about doing their job. I've never been an engineer. I don't know all of the subtleties of being an engineer. I know about science and mathematics, but that doesn't qualify me to dissect what he does.

The LEO didn't make an illegal arrest, nor did he cause her undue stress, so what's the big deal? IMHO, some of these comments are un-qualified nit-picking. This is why I asked.

[memphismason]

I got that, and I disagree with it too. But, for example, I don't go around criticizing an engineer about how he/she goes about doing their job. I've never been an engineer. I don't know all of the subtleties of being an engineer. I know about science and mathematics, but that doesn't qualify me to dissect what he does.

The LEO didn't make an illegal arrest, nor did he cause her undue stress, so what's the big deal? IMHO, some of these comments are un-qualified nit-picking. This is why I asked.

I am a father, a home owner,a owner of a vehicle, with a HCP and carry daily, which does qualify me to "dissect" what the mom did.

I guess I missed the "Holding someone at gunpoint over property" section of my training.

[E4 No More]

I am a father, a home owner,a owner of a vehicle, with a HCP and carry daily, which does qualify me to "dissect" what the mom did.

I guess I missed the "Holding someone at gunpoint over property" section of my training.

I was talking about dissecting the LEO; not the mom.

[memphismason]

I was talking about dissecting the LEO; not the mom.

oh, well in that case.

Asking if the Mom if she had a HCP is as irrelevant to the situation as asking if she enjoys a good spanking.

I am allowed to say that regardless of my "qualifications".