Outback and restaurant carry

[Guest djegators]

Hello folks, just stopping by to post some info related to my interest in your new restaurant carry bill. It all started when I read an article in a restaurant trade magazine (I am a long time restaurant manager) about restauranteurs who oppose the bill and intend to post signs prohibiting guns.

Here is the article:

Operators aim to scuttle Tenn. concealed-gun law

By ELISSA ELAN

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (July 27, 2009 ) —Some Tennessee restaurateurs, anticipating increased liability costs from a controversial new law allowing concealed firearms into restaurants that serve alcohol, are seeking an injunction that would shoot the legislation down for good.

A new law in Tennessee, which lets people carry concealed firearms into restaurants, also allows the proprietors of those eateries to post signs that ban guns from the premises.

The law, passed by state legislators in May and enacted July 14 despite a veto by Gov. Phil Bredesen, lets patrons with gun permits carry concealed weapons into establishments that serve alcohol on the premises, although they are not allowed to drink. But the law also entitles restaurateurs to post signs banning guns from their establishments. Patrons who are caught ignoring such a warning are subject to fines of $500.

Tennessee’s law went into effect a day before similar legislation was approved by lawmakers in Arizona.

According to the National Rifle Association, approximately 36 states permit firearms to be carried into restaurants, but some of those laws tend to be more stringent. For instance, in some states guns cannot be concealed. Georgia, Arizona and Tennessee are the only states where concealed weapons are allowed into alcohol-serving establishments.

A group of Tennessee restaurateurs were unsuccessful in mid-July in their attempt to win an injunction to keep the law from going into effect. But the judge reviewing their case said that portions of the argument concerning the vagueness of the law did have merit and that a hearing would occur within 90 days, said Randy Rayburn, operator of three Nashville restaurants and lead plaintiff in the lawsuit.

“This is a stupid law,†Rayburn said. “This law will serve no purpose other than [causing] bloodshed to result.â€

Even though the law contains an opt-out clause allowing operators to post signs that ban guns in their stores, the question of what happens if an incident occurs on the premises remains murky at best, operators said.

“Really, the big issue is—and we’ve talked to numerous attorneys across the state—whether posting the signs absolves the business owner from liability, but no one seems to know,†said Walt Baker, chief executive of the Tennessee Hospitality Association. “Even if we do post signs, our insurance rates will go up, but we don’t know how much. Insurance companies don’t know what to do with this. By definition, there are no bars in Tennessee. Every establishment has to generate at least 50 percent of its sales from food, even at a local tavern.â€

Baker further stated that no one has determined whether posting the opt-out sign is enough to protect the operator against liability if a shooting does occur on the premises.

“Up until this point, you were not allowed to bring guns into these establishments, and if an incident took place, liability fell on the individual who carried in that gun,†Baker said. “But now, because the law expressly permits guns in these places, even if you decide you don’t want guns in your restaurant and you post the sign, the question then becomes: Did you do enough by posting the sign? Did you do enough to keep that gun from coming into the establishment? Do you have to frisk the guy like they do at the honkey tonks in downtown Nashville? They have wands and bouncers who watch who comes in and wand you when you do.â€

Rayburn said he has been told in no uncertain terms to expect the rates on his insurance premiums to go up.

“If we post [the signs], we are under strict liability to ensure a safe environment and subject to higher insurance costs accordingly,†he said. “Nobody can give us a straight answer, but I’ve heard [of increases of] anywhere from 30 percent to 100 percent in dram shop [liability].â€

However, Mike Kelley, owner-operator of the upscale Jimmy Kelley’s Steakhouse in Nashville, said he just renewed his insurance policy and the rates have not changed—yet.

“My rates didn’t change, and I certainly hope they won’t,†he said. “Actually, they went down this year. But the fact is, I put the [no-guns] sign up and I have no idea what [the insurance companies] are going to do [in the future].â€

Baker said the new law would challenge all restaurateurs, including the big dinnerhouse chains in the state. “This brings Applebee’s, Chili’s, J. Alexander’s—you name it—into play,†he said.

He added that after Tennessee’s measure passed, the restaurant association polled its members and found that roughly 78 percent said they would post the no-guns sign in their establishments, while 22 percent said they would not, with half of those saying it would cause marketing problems for them.

“The publicity worries me more than anything,†Baker said. “In Tennessee, we’ve fought that [redneck] stereotype since ‘Hee Haw’ came on. People think we have no cars or paved streets, but, in fact, we are very cosmopolitan. It’s not like in that Patrick Swayze movie, ‘Roadhouse,’ where everyone is getting into drunken brawls and firing at each other. But that’s the perception out there.â€

Kelley, who said he is an avid hunter, also opposes the law.

“It’s ridiculous,†he said. “I’m a gun owner; I shoot sporting clays almost every weekend. I am not against the Second Amendment. But there ought to be some responsibility on the customer’s part to know there are certain things you should and shouldn’t do. You shouldn’t bring a loaded gun into a restaurant. That said, Nashville hasn’t changed [since the law passed]; there’s been no difference. Everyone is doing business as we used to do. No one is walking into my restaurant with a chrome-plated revolver.â€

Kelley, who is a member of Nashville’s convention and tourism board, added that the city recently was named one of the top five cities for hospitality.

“We’re known for our friendliness,†he said. “This is not the Wild West. It is unfortunate that some overzealous legislators wanted to pass this law, but they were very misinformed by a small minority of people. In fact, it is a really bad law.†—eelan@nrn.com

And here is my response, which they told me they are publishing in their letters to the editor:

Subject: RE: Operators aim to scuttle Tenn. concealed-gun law

Hello, I am writing you to voice my dissappointment in your article. I have been in the restaurant business for almost 25 years, and close to 20 of that in management. I have worked in many types of restaurants, in many locations. I also have been a concealed carry licensee here in Florida for at least 15 years. We have had concealed carry in this State for even longer. Florida has allowed carry into restaurants all of this time (bars are excluded, but not restaurants with bars). Statistics have shown that conceal carry licensees are very much more law-abiding than the general population. If you look at the stats since conceal carry permits have been issued, there have been over 1.5 million permits given out, and somewhere around 1500 revoked, only a few dozen of them for felonies. There are not shootouts in casual dining chains. There is not the "wild west" gunslinging incidents that were predicted by gun rights opponents. I would have appreciated a

look at both sides in your article, since there are many states that already allow restaurant carry. This group of anti-gun restaurantuers should have been challenged on their misrepresentation of gun owners. The businesses have the right to post the sign prohibiting guns, which is their right, and I certainly would not eat there, as they don't respect my rights.

Anyways, this got me curious as to if any national/regional chains have posted the signs, because I do not want to patronize them anywhere, at least if this is corporate policy. After doing some reading online, including this board, the Outback name kept coming up. Their parent company, OSI, is based here in Tampa. I decided for my own sake of "innocent until proven guilty", I would contact them directly, to see if this is indeed corporate policy.

Here is an email I received from them:

Dear DJ

Thank you for your recent email concerning the newly passed gun law in the State of Tennessee . While we respect the right of all citizens to bear arms, it is our decision to not allow people to do so in our restaurants. This is a corporate decision. We are not disrespectful of the rights of gun owners, we merely want all of our guests to feel welcomed and safe, and frankly see no need for guns to be brought into restaurants.

Please feel free to call me if there are any additional concerns or questions.

We look forward to seeing you soon.

Sincerely,

Bruce Doucette

Outback Steakhouse

615-661-8555

I have sent a response, even though I am sure it is quite unlikely to influence their decision. Here is my response:

Thank you for your response. I do have a few points to make, before I make my final decision to not patronize any OSI restaurants going forward.

* My home state, and OSI's home state, Florida, has allowed restaurant carry for approxiamately 25 years. As far as I know, there have never been any signs posted on any of your restaurants prohibiting law abiding licensees to carry on premises. Do you intend to change this? Will your Florida restaurants follow the same path as Tennessee? Or in any of the many many other states that also allow restaurant carry?

* For he 25 years that Florida has allowed concealed carry, there has been very little crime committed by the license holders. Out of over 1.5 million licenses issued, approx. 1500 have been revoked for criminal activity, and much less for violent crime involving firearms. Florida has allowed restaurant carry since inception of conceal carry. I have not seen evidence of any wild west scenarios. Have your Florida restaurants experienced lots of problems with lawful concealed carry? (I am guessing the total restaurants OSI operates in Florida to be in the 100s, correct?)

* I also would like to know if your corporate decision makers feel that your signs will prevent unlawful conceal carry in your restaurants. Do they feel it makes their restaurants safer to only have criminal gun possession, and not lawful citizen possession? Please explain how your signs will prevent criminal activity, and make it safer. Do you allow police to carry firearms into your restaurants?

* Assuming that licensed gun carriers will still dine in your establishments, and they will follow your rules of not carrying inside, do you intend to provide parking lot security to ensure the security of their firearms that they were forced to leave in their vehicles?

Thank you for your time, I know you are a busy person, as I am a restaurant manager, and have been in the business for many years. I do hope that your corporate decision makers can realize the errors of their ways on this issue. And I would not be surprised at all to find that some of your leaders, such as Sullivan, Allen, Avery, etc. are Florida conceal carry license holders themselves. I will say, with all due respect, that I will not spend my hard earned money in OSI restaurants due to this policy in Tennessee.

DJ

Anyhoo, looks like I will no longer be dining at Outback, Bonefish, Carrabbas, Flemings, or Roys. Many fine restaurants, but I cannot justify giving them my money anymore. In interst of full disclosure, I can be considered a competitor, as I am in the business, like I said at the top. Sorry for such a long post, hope it was useful here.

[Guest GlockRule]

Nice correspondence there, makes perfect sense to me-but will probably go right over the head of anti-carry restaurants. I'm starting to notice restaurants with national locations only feeling the need to ban guns in their TN locations for some reason (while still allowing carry at their restaurants in other states)-nice to have backup from non-TN residents on boycotting these restaurants that won't listen to common sense. If they only want ILLEGAL gun carry in their restaurant (because we all know thug criminals don't pay attention to signs), then I won't be there! And I won't patronize their restaurant if it means putting my safety on hold while traveling to and from their restaurant!

[tnoutdoors9]

I've always thought Outback was somewhat overrated. Haven't darkened the door of one in nearly 4 years. Don't get me wrong, the food is OK, but not worth the wait or price. Now I really have a reason to avoid it.

[Smith]

Those articles are always using one or two guys as their sole source of restaurateur opinion. Same two guys I might add. Where are the other so called 78%? That brings up the second issue I have with all these articles. 78% of 14%, (?) can't remember the total number of questionnaires sent out - something like 700 total and 100 responses (?), is not 78% of restaurants!

These are Yogi Berra stats!

Edited August 7, 2009 by Smith

[DWARREN123]

The signs I have seen on Outback Steak Houses is not the legal approved Tennessee sign but would not eat there anyway!

[Guest djegators]

Nice correspondence there, makes perfect sense to me-but will probably go right over the head of anti-carry restaurants. I'm starting to notice restaurants with national locations only feeling the need to ban guns in their TN locations for some reason (while still allowing carry at their restaurants in other states)-nice to have backup from non-TN residents on boycotting these restaurants that won't listen to common sense. If they only want ILLEGAL gun carry in their restaurant (because we all know thug criminals don't pay attention to signs), then I won't be there! And I won't patronize their restaurant if it means putting my safety on hold while traveling to and from their restaurant!

Thanks for your responses, this looks like a great board. I feel it is important that we stick together, and offer support, even on out of state issues. I have posted this on other boards and facebook. For those who agree with the sentiment, I encourage you to post this elsewhere as well.

PS to glockrule, I believe you mentioned somewhere about posting on Glocktalk, look for me there, I am active and use the same username there.

[mac12]

I ate at Outback tonight in Jackson. It was not posted. It may be so later and if it is, there is a large choice of other places for me to spend my money.

[Guest 270win]

I've never seen any signs at the Outbacks in Arkansas. I don't think they are franchises, but I could be wrong. If the signs aren't legal, and someone else is paying, I'll carry my gun. If i'm paying, I'll take my money somewhere else.

[gboffroad]

I went to the Outback in West Knoxville last night with a group and there was a non complaint sign next to the door. It said something to the fact of while we respect gun owners rights we ask that you do not bring them inside. Since I was with a group I proceeded to go in and have dinner, I just made sure I was concealed very well.

[Wingshooter]

Thanks for the info. I didn't know they had that corporate policy towards permit holders. I ate at an Outback in TN recently that was not posted. It seems like I eat at Outback about twice a year, and each time I wish I had gone somewhere else.

I always carry, so if a restaurant does not support 2A rights, my $$$ gets spent elsewhere.

[Guest djegators]

It does appear to be corporate policy, I recieved a similar email from a Bonefish Grill exec.

Ms XXXXXX;

Thank you for your concern. While we respect your rights we do not allow guns in our restaurants.

Thank You,

Rick Dauer

JVP, Bonefish Grill

Note his calling me 'Ms.', lol...been a dude the whole time!

[dralarms]

Well the Outback inCleveland TN is still NOT posted and according to the MGt. they will NOT be. Outbacks are handled similar to mcdonalds, Franchises, Corp only has the ability to control certain stuff. The email you got was probally from a corp office of the nashville owned branch. The one I go to I know they own a few (don't know how many) and I've been welcomed in there each and every time.

[Guest djegators]

I do not believe that is correct. I believe that Outback is almost always corporate owned/managed.

[dralarms]

OK,

I carried your email to them at my location and they didn't even know who the guy was that gave you that info.

I was told again they would NOT be posting.

[Guest djegators]

OK,

I carried your email to them at my location and they didn't even know who the guy was that gave you that info.

I was told again they would NOT be posting.

Do you mind telling me exact location? I would like to inquire with their home office about this. Do you know who you talked to there?

Edited to add: the person in my email, Bruce Doucette, does not give his title, but his phone number is a Tn number I believe. The email was actually sent by Joe Ruburto JVP-0031. A JVP for them, is like a regional manager. I assume this stuff was forwarded from somewhere.

Edited August 10, 2009 by djegators

[mac12]

Do you mind telling me exact location? I would like to inquire with their home office about this. Do you know who you talked to there?

Edited to add: the person in my email, Bruce Doucette, does not give his title, but his phone number is a Tn number I believe. The email was actually sent by Joe Ruburto JVP-0031. A JVP for them, is like a regional manager. I assume this stuff was forwarded from somewhere.

Why don't you all just leave it alone. If you keep on bugging them they will be sure to post all of them. I don't mean to tell you how to run your business, but what you do could affect thousands of permit holders.

[memphismason]

The wife and I ate at the Outback on Germantown Rd. this past Saturday night. Before entering I stop, looked at every sign they had posted, and not one of them was about guns. Not even the red slash. So I carried, she carried, and we had a horrible overpriced meal.

We will not be going back due to the price and poor quality, even if they never post.

[dralarms]

Why don't you all just leave it alone. If you keep on bugging them they will be sure to post all of them. I don't mean to tell you how to run your business, but what you do could affect thousands of permit holders.

Yea some people can't leave well enough alone.