Conservatives For Patients' Rights

[Guest redbarron06]

Playing Devil's Advocate:

However, the beauty of our country is that we are free to take the best from other societies and implement those ideas within our existing framework. Our founding fathers attempted to blend the best of Ancient Greece, Rome and British political and religious history to form our Republic (among other cultures to be sure). They did not operate in a vacuum, and looked towards and with Europe for contemporary (for their time) debate.

So, just because an idea is foreign to the US, does not make it a bad idea.

Ahh but this idea (government run health care) has failed everywhere it has been tried. Including some of the states here in the US. To think tht we can do it better at the national level and it will not end up being the same old drain on the economy, and rationed system that other countries have is without justification. The government can not balance a checkbook yet we expect them to be able to handle health care for 300 million people? On some subjects I can agree that we can look outside our borders for some of the answers. Take the machine gun for example we developed what we have off of what Germany started in WWI. This is not a area where we can look to the rest of the world and get insperation to improve our system when they are coming here to benifit from ours over theirs.

[Punisher84]

Playing Devil's Advocate:

However, the beauty of our country is that we are free to take the best from other societies and implement those ideas within our existing framework. Our founding fathers attempted to blend the best of Ancient Greece, Rome and British political and religious history to form our Republic (among other cultures to be sure). They did not operate in a vacuum, and looked towards and with Europe for contemporary (for their time) debate.

So, just because an idea is foreign to the US, does not make it a bad idea. The trick is balancing personal liberty with the implementation of new ideas, and that's what the argument here really hinges on.

We, in my opinion, must be careful to say, "Like it or leave it bub!"... one day we may be on the flip side of that ultimatum. It doesn't bother me when people disagree, what bothers me is when they try to force those beliefs on others by working outside our Constitutional framework.

But, I digress. Again, merely playing devil's advocate, but anyone here legally has a right to have their say in the direction our country takes. However, we all have a responsibility to be educated on our responsibilities as citizens, and the history of our country and our government, and try to work within that framework to enact change.

Sorry, got a bit ramble-iffic there.

I certainly see your point. It's just astonishing to me to see so many people blatantly disregard facts. You have several countries that have enacted gun bans, like the liberals want to do here. How is that working for Canada,England,Australia, and now *sobs* Ireland?

You have socialized healthcare in Europe and Canada. LOTS of people there aren't too happy about it.

I understand taking good aspects of other cultures and societies and bringing them to ours, but we were built upon the ideals of a small government and now the American people are practically begging and pleading for MORE government to take care of them because *baby voice* it's just so hard.

It makes me ill what this country is becoming. I think about the things my Grandfather and Uncles fought for and fought against and now we want those same things for us and our children??? What the hell have we become?

[Guest CK1]

so i've been reading all the responses and honestly there are a FEW intelligent responses that have made me think that i should clarify that i did not wish to insinuate that choosing to be a conservative means that someone is less intelligent than anyone who chooses any other political affiliation...

on the other hand, the lion's share of the responses have virtually nothing to do or say to the charge that this anti-health care reform action is BS being pushed by corporations in bed with the right-wing.

what seems evident, through a sort of collective "i want my country back!" chorus, is that for many here in TN, and in the south in general, the civil war is still being fought... the messege that is getting across from the southern right is loud and clear: we don't like minorities, we don't like the government telling us anything, and we fear change.

the things i'm hearing are "us against them" attacks... many of the people who seem to have so much of a problem with the Obama administration merely shout out accusations and complaints, without being able to sight any real specific reasons for their dismay (and almost every one who used the word "Socialism" needs to look it up... seems the right wing has failed to educate on what it actually means...). and... where were you all during the last 8 years?

really it doesn't matter, the southern, white, christian, conservatives are now far and away the minority in our country, so for the people yelling "i want my country back!" get used to "it's not yours alone anymore, and you'll never have it like it was again!" that's just the way it is... you're fighting a battle that has already been long lost!

as the southern states become more marginalized (as they are already fast becoming) due to politicians playing politics for votes, rather than working for progress, it's bad for us all in the region, ....but, we'll just have to endure it, it's only a matter of how long it takes for the south to catch up to the rest of the country.

my argument is about people ruining health care reform for us all by making it a partisan issue (and being annoyed with sheep following the right wing line even as it ruins them)... our nation is #1 in cost of heath care, yet #39 in actual health, fact. our government is capable of providing health care to ALL of it's citizens with the only changes requiring a few in the private sector to earn billions still, just slightly less, and provide better care for all to compete, that's the issue!

...and oh yeah, all of you who are so strongly against government run "socialized medicine", so i must assume when you turn 65 you are going to refuse GOVERNMENT RUN medicare.... and if you are a veteran you will refuse all your GOVERNMENT RUN medical benefits...

my post isn't to rant, it's to try to get some people on here to really think about this issue and how it affects everybody... imagine how good our health care could be if the reform movement had the power of those who treated it as a right as necessary as the right to bear arms?

if not, you are a bunch of hypocrites!

Edited August 8, 2009 by CK1

[Punisher84]

so i've been reading all the responses and honestly there are a FEW intelligent responses that have made me think that i should clarify that i did not wish to insinuate that choosing to be a conservative means that someone is less intelligent than anyone who chooses any other political affiliation...

on the other hand, the lion's share of the responses have virtually nothing to do or say to the charge that this anti-health care reform action is BS being pushed by corporations in bed with the right-wing.

what seems evident, through a sort of collective "i want my country back!" chorus, is that for many here in TN, and in the south in general, the civil war is still being fought... the messege that is getting across from the southern right is loud and clear: we don't like minorities, we don't like the government telling us anything, and we fear change.

the things i'm hearing are "us against them" attacks... many of the people who seem to have so much of a problem with the Obama administration merely shout out accusations and complaints, without being able to sight any real specific reasons (and almost every one who used the word "Socialism" needs to look it up... seems the right wing has failed to educate on what it actually means...).

really it doesn't matter, the southern, white, christian, conservatives are now far and away the minority in our country, so for the people yelling "i want my country back!" get used to "it's not yours alone anymore, and you'll never have it like it was again!" that's just the way it is... you're fighting a battle that has already been long lost!

as the southern states become more marginalized (as they are already fast becoming) due to politicians playing politic for votes rather than working for progress it's bad for us all in the region, it's only a matter of how long it takes for the south to catch up to the rest of the country.

my argument is about people ruining health care reform for us all by making it a partisan issue (and being annoyed with sheep following the right wing line even as it ruins them)... our nation is #1 in cost of heath care, yet #39 in actual health, fact. our government is capable of providing health care to ALL of it's citizens with the only changes requiring a few in the private sector to earn billions still, just slightly less, and provide better care for all to compete, that's the issue!

Are you serious? Are you really and truly ****ing serious?! If Obama is such a savior with all his plans then why is his approval rating hovering right at about 50%? Why is everything he's done so far failing?

The only "war" going on here is a war between the hard working taxpayers of this country and the lazy liberal Americans and illegal immigrants. You know I'll give you the fact that there are people that just hate Obama because of his race and there are uneducated rednecks, but here's the kicker, how come us poor dumb hicks can see that everything you left wing liberals try to put in place here is failing rapidly everywhere else but you can't?

Just because someone talks about change doesn't mean it's good. Xerxes would have been a change, so would have Hitler.

[rg65]

what seems evident, through a sort of collective "i want my country back!" chorus, is that for many here in TN, and in the south in general, the civil war is still being fought... the messege that is getting across from the southern right is loud and clear: we don't like minorities, we don't like the government telling us anything, and we fear change.

What part of what anyone said here implies "WE DON'T LIKE MINORITIES"? Liberals always throw this out to make us back down. See....conservatives are really the only ones who are tolerant of the other side! Heck, we even let the other side push back further than we should on many issues. However, there comes a point that enough is enough. I think that is what you are witnessing now.

I am still waiting on you explanation from your first post about the points that "Conservatives for Patients' Rights" is incorrect about. I realize that it is a talking point to say they are putting out misinformation.

I also understand that most of your first post was a cut/paste job. Talk about following someone blindly!!

The government has only limited rights in what they can proide/do for us. Just because they have been overstepping their bounds for many years does not change the fact that- eventually - we will have to take it back to what the founding fathers (or to be PC, FRAMERS) intended it to be.

The government has NO RIGHT to make us pay for healthcare for others (minorities or not). It has NO RIGHT to use my money to pay for CLUNKER cars! It has NO RIGHT to use my money to pay for abortions for US citizens or even worse, foreign countries. It has NO RIGHT to use my money to support ACORN or any other group that is against many things I believe in.

There are many more.

:)

Edited August 8, 2009 by rg65
change is wording

[Guest slothful1]

the messege that is getting across from the southern right is loud and clear: we don't like minorities

This makes about as much sense as me claiming that people who support Obamacare are actually child molesters.

[Guest redbarron06]

so i've been reading all the responses and honestly there are a FEW intelligent responses that have made me think that i should clarify that i did not wish to insinuate that choosing to be a conservative means that someone is less intelligent than anyone who chooses any other political affiliation...

on the other hand, the lion's share of the responses have virtually nothing to do or say to the charge that this anti-health care reform action is BS being pushed by corporations in bed with the right-wing.

what seems evident, through a sort of collective "i want my country back!" chorus, is that for many here in TN, and in the south in general, the civil war is still being fought... the messege that is getting across from the southern right is loud and clear: we don't like minorities, we don't like the government telling us anything, and we fear change.

the things i'm hearing are "us against them" attacks... many of the people who seem to have so much of a problem with the Obama administration merely shout out accusations and complaints, without being able to sight any real specific reasons for their dismay (and almost every one who used the word "Socialism" needs to look it up... seems the right wing has failed to educate on what it actually means...). and... where were you all during the last 8 years?

really it doesn't matter, the southern, white, christian, conservatives are now far and away the minority in our country, so for the people yelling "i want my country back!" get used to "it's not yours alone anymore, and you'll never have it like it was again!" that's just the way it is... you're fighting a battle that has already been long lost!

as the southern states become more marginalized (as they are already fast becoming) due to politicians playing politics for votes, rather than working for progress, it's bad for us all in the region, ....but, we'll just have to endure it, it's only a matter of how long it takes for the south to catch up to the rest of the country.

my argument is about people ruining health care reform for us all by making it a partisan issue (and being annoyed with sheep following the right wing line even as it ruins them)... our nation is #1 in cost of heath care, yet #39 in actual health, fact. our government is capable of providing health care to ALL of it's citizens with the only changes requiring a few in the private sector to earn billions still, just slightly less, and provide better care for all to compete, that's the issue!

...and oh yeah, all of you who are so strongly against government run "socialized medicine", so i must assume when you turn 65 you are going to refuse GOVERNMENT RUN medicare.... and if you are a veteran you will refuse all your GOVERNMENT RUN medical benefits...

my post isn't to rant, it's to try to get some people on here to really think about this issue and how it affects everybody... imagine how good our health care could be if the reform movement had the power of those who treated it as a right as necessary as the right to bear arms?

if not, you are a bunch of hypocrites!

And I suppose that you have evidence to back up your claims that the drug companies and insurance agencies are behind all of these rowdy folks at the town halls meetings? Well it seems the evidence is on our side again this time. BHO and Pelosi calling in the unions and ACORN to save their good for nothing, sorry asses.

You want change here is some change for you and the rest of your liberal buddies, especially the ones in congress, READ THE FREAKING CONSTITUTION FOR A CHANGE!!! Where do you see health care? Ohh you dont. I know all you liberals get upset when little things like "the facts" and "the law" get in the way of you do good, feel good orgy. News flash, the country makes enough money to feed every country in Africa, but we dont. WE did not become the greatest country in history by giving what we have away.

Liberals are all alike, they want to blame all of the problems on race, or gender, or sexual preferance when the problem deep down inside is that liberals refuse to take responsibility for your own actions. They are scared to stand up for themselves. Scared to take the risk and therefor they will never reap the rewards that come with it. So rather than be quite they want to blame those that work hard to make this country great. they all want some of what others have but you dont have the gear to go out and earn it so they ask big brother to take it. And when sombody stands up to them then "you are a racist, a homophobe, a sexist", or what ever the catch phrase of the day is.

As far as the message from the "south" saying "we dont like the the federal government telling us what to do" Well you hit that on the head except for one little detail. It is not just the south it is the entire freaking country. Cali wants to legalize pot, Chicago wants to outlaw guns, more than 30 states now have resolutions declaring the 10th ammendment. Look that up when you decide to read the constitution. While you are at it read Article 1 section 8 POWERS OF CONGRESS. Tell me where health care, or cap and trade, or cocaine for that matter is mentioned? ohh here we go bringing up those pesky facts again. Guess what it does require the federal government to do, secure the borders. But they dont want to do that because it might hurt somebody's feelings.

How about just coming up with an original idea of your own, rather than looking to the government to back up your argument. How about providing some proof that socialized health care works in any country?

How about some more change for you. Why dont we call Nancy Pelosi and ask her why they gave the "big 3" such a hard time about flying in on private jets and last week approved billions to buy more for Congress. I think it is pretty safe to say that GM was not nearly as in debt as Congress is right now. Ask your congressmen if they are going to go onto the public option? I bet I know what the answer is.

We are a nation of laws. The supreme law of the land is the US Constitution. NOWHERE in the constitution does it give the federal government the ability to provide money for the sick, the elderly, car buy back programs or health care. This is the only fact that matters in this arguement. However the left wing whack jobs want to argue about feelings, and compassion and emotion. It is great to have all of that. It is great to give to charity. It is not good however to reach into my wallet and take my money for your charity. The left lacks the ability to argue the facts they can only argue with feelings. Try using the facts, it gives you something a little more solid to stand on.

And before you insult ever veteran in this nation by calling them hypocrits remimber. that without them you would have no government and no freedom. Why dont you "man up" and try to walk in these boots for a few years.

As far as your last statement. I can show you where the right to keep and bear arms is in the supreme law of the land. It is a fact that you can not show me where healthcare is in that same document.

If you want socialized health care, if you want big brother or the nanny state to take care of you, then move to a place where the nanny state does. Dont come into my house and tell me how run it. The liberals are trying to change this country into something it was never meant to be. Kinda like they are trying to change the definition of marriage. They may be able to in certain parts. But there are a few of us that took an oath to defend that Constitution against all enemies. That Constitution is now under attack from within our own borders. Dont think for a minute that we will not defend it.

Edited August 8, 2009 by redbarron06

[Guest thorn]

CK1 it's often and typical for you and those around you to lose on the facts and start whinny name calling and accusations. We have heard it before from the likes of you. The fact is that our tolerance and your marginalization has brought us to where we are today.

What you can't accept is that I have free will and have no more patience for your thinking.

ETA: So far all you've done is rant with the addition of some copy and paste of some chosen supposed statistic. I can't even guess what it is that drives you but having an interest in shooting isn't a free pass to call me anything you wish while expecting the government to force me to take it. If you could respond to this - who exactly would you expect us to catch up with in this Country and for what reason?

Edited August 8, 2009 by thorn

[Mark@Sea]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, you're all a bunch of racist, loser rednecks. You haven't answered that accusation? Losers!

Moving on...

Darn those un-progressive (which, by the way, has meant anti-fascist since the 1930's) politicians who endanger progressive ideals by selfishly and stupidly representing their constituents.

That argument was easy to demolish; next!

Healthcare is a commodity, just as are rifles, pistols, and ammunition. You certainly have a right to all the healthcare you can afford, just as I have a right to all the 1911's I can afford. I don't reach into your pocket to pay for them, please quit trying to reach into my pocket to pay for your medical bills.

Calling healthcare (the commodity itself) a right is stating that Doctors, nurses and hospitals have a duty to provide it to you. How audacious of them to expect to get paid for their labors! Uppity slaves!

Another one down, lets' go to the finale, shall we?

Calling me a hypocrite for not wanting the government to control my healthcare, while at the same time not wanting the government to control my right to bear arms, is changing the punchline in the middle of the joke. Logic check on aisle three, please...

The bright spot in all this is that the left isn't even trying to argue the proposition on its' merits. Well, can't blame them, it has none. They are desperately reduced to attacking their opponents' intelligence, moral character, and motivations. I'm heartened to know that there are enough freedom minded individuals in the country that they can't simply ram it through. The bad news is that there are enough people with such a poor grounding in the ideals on which this country is founded that it wasn't simply rejected out of hand.

Socialism: a political theory advocating state ownership of industry (such as, say, auto manufacture, or banking, or healthcare). This differs from what Obama is pushing in what particular, please? Remedy my lack of education, if you will.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Mark@Sea

[Guest mikedwood]

He is baiting me real hard with those anti-southern claims that are backed up by nothing more than his imagination.

[Guest beefcakeb0]

...and oh yeah, all of you who are so strongly against government run "socialized medicine", so i must assume when you turn 65 you are going to refuse GOVERNMENT RUN medicare.... and if you are a veteran you will refuse all your GOVERNMENT RUN medical benefits...

by this time you would likely have personally paid into yourself

[Guest beefcakeb0]

He is baiting me real hard with those anti-southern claims that are backed up by nothing more than his imagination.

he comes directly from pelosi's playbook, dont mind him

[LagerHead]

SRN News : Obama's health care plan helped by drug industry

So the Demonrats can give lip service to demonizing the Big, Bad Drug Companies... while those same companies are quietly spending big bucks to promote Obama's agenda. Is this a bad thing, or are we only supposed to be suspicious of big money special interests when they're on the other side?

The drug companies would love for this plan to be passed. If there is anyone that can be overcharged for extended periods of time without notice, it's the government. This plan would spell a windfall for the pharmaceutical industry like they've never seen.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

CK1, more of the same, eh? You still have not made a point.

my post isn't to rant, it's to try to get some people on here to really think about this issue and how it affects everybody... imagine how good our health care could be if the reform movement had the power of those who treated it as a right as necessary as the right to bear arms?

if not, you are a bunch of hypocrites!

Ok, if this is your purpose, please explain. I'm all ears here. I still have yet to see you make a single argument for your side. You have not made any factual points or rebutted any of your critics. All I have seen is emotional dribble. You want me to think? Give me something to think about! So far you haven't. You haven't even addressed one single aspect of health care reform. You haven't even presented a reasonable reason to do so.

my argument is about people ruining health care reform for us all by making it a partisan issue (and being annoyed with sheep following the right wing line even as it ruins them)... our nation is #1 in cost of heath care, yet #39 in actual health, fact. our government is capable of providing health care to ALL of it's citizens with the only changes requiring a few in the private sector to earn billions still, just slightly less, and provide better care for all to compete, that's the issue!

Please explain to me where the federal government is granted the power to do this? Could you show me the specifics of how we are #39 and how the current legislation addresses and fixes these problems? Could you show examples of partisianship? What are the changes in the private sector? What mathematical, logical, or scientific principles can you use to show this will work?

I can. I can break the bill down piece by piece. I can show you statistical and economic reasoning. I can give you a dozen reasons why the particular regulation is detremental to our society and actually counter-productive to providing the health care it promises.

(and almost every one who used the word "Socialism" needs to look it up... seems the right wing has failed to educate on what it actually means...)

• Main Entry: so·cial·ism
  
• Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
  
• Function: noun
  
• Date: 1837
  

1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

socialism - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

.hlcomplexityorange { color:#CC6600; } a.hlcomplexityorange { text-decoration:none; } a.hlcomplexityorange:hover { text-decoration:underline; }

Learn more about "socialism" and related topics at Britannica.com

See a map of "socialism" in the Visual Thesaurus

Hmm, so how is governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods (i.e. healthcare, vehicles, banks) not socialism by definition?

really it doesn't matter, the southern, white, christian, conservatives are now far and away the minority in our country, so for the people yelling "i want my country back!" get used to "it's not yours alone anymore, and you'll never have it like it was again!" that's just the way it is... you're fighting a battle that has already been long lost!

Ok, so this is not racist? But if someone says "midwestern, black, christian, liberals" it is? That is pure hypocrisy. Could you explain to me how this battle is being lost? I do not see this. I see two opinions in America being debated in the courtroom of public opion. I see no "war" that you speak of. And so its ok for you to rant and rave if you don't like the current state of affairs, but if I have an opinion of it, that doesn't matter because "that's just the way it is"?

I'm not even going to bother with this thread anymore. I thought maybe we could persue an intellegent debate on the subject at hand, but all I have seen so far is emotional mud-slinging and whining. Let me know when you have collected your thoughts into a worthwhile argument.

[Guest CK1]

Ok, ok... look, I've decided this thread shouldn't go any further until everyone posts copies of their birth certificates proving that they are indeed actual real American citizens born on American soil!

[BrasilNuts]

Ok, ok... look, I've decided this thread shouldn't go any further until everyone posts copies of their birth certificates proving that they are indeed actual real American citizens born on American soil!

You first.

[Guest slothful1]

Ok, ok... look, I've decided this thread shouldn't go any further until everyone posts copies of their birth certificates proving that they are indeed actual real American citizens born on American soil!

Translation: I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm losing the argument so it's time to change the subject.

[Guest redbarron06]

Translation: I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm losing the argument so it's time to change the subject.

yep pretty much.

I love it when the liberals try to argue facts and the law with emotion.

[Guest 3pugguy]

Translation: I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm losing the argument so it's time to change the subject.

He/she lost it on post 1, as there was not an argument put forth by CK, just a loose pile of something you'd scrape off your shoe

[Smith]

What in the world! This is the most jumbled nonsensical thread I have ever read!?

I'd debate, but I'm not sure of the topic. Health care, racism, Southern angst, Obama, Canada, US, Jesus, Hitler.............................?

I guess I'd call this a driveby trolling!

[Rightwinger]

CK1 isn't that a perfume?

[Guest beefcakeb0]

my birth certificate is on file in hawaii and they wont let me have it

[Guest Hyaloid]

I think this has run its course.