Conservatives For Patients' Rights

[Guest 44M]

If care at home is good quality and free/cheap, why do they spend "big bucks" to come here?

if a Chevy Impala is a good quality car why do they spend "big bucks" on Mercedes...?

- because they can and because they DO HAVE a "big bucks", thats why...

Db

[Guest 44M]

People don't become rich by spending money unnecessarily

no, they become rich because they have working man working for minimum wage for them and the old formula about getting rich by working hard...you can forget that, those days are gone...

Db

[Guest slothful1]

There are not 50,000,000 Americans who have no health coverage. Many millions of those are not Americans at all -- they are illegal immigrants. Others are qualified for Medicaid. Others are young kids out of college or self-employed people who choose not to get health insurance. Yes, there are some working poor who can't get coverage, but it's not remotely close to 50 million, and there's no reason to screw the rest of us over to fix a limited problem.

Secondly, anyone who genuinely wanted to lower health care costs in the US would reign in our ridiculous civil litigation environment, so doctors wouldn't have to pay a quarter of a million in malpractice insurance every year. That IS something we should copy other countries on, but the trial lawyers are not going to allow that.

[Guest redbarron06]

I lived in Germany for 5 years, so I know what is that I`m talking about, I have friends all over the Europe also, being from Europe I know little more than many people here and they are going to have a problem trying to sell me a scare tactics about socialized health care. Yes, we here have a great health care, if you are covered, if you don`t get droped because of preegzisting condition or million other reasons. Health insurances here have an army of lawyers who don`t do anything else but try to find a flaw in your profile if they get the hospital bill they don`t wont to pay.I work for goverment and I personaly have very good health care insurance but its not all about me, there is 50 000 000 american people who don`t have nothing. And I know what a problem is, problem is in the fact that most of those people are black but nobody admits that but we all know about it. Blacks are the poorest and most of those 50 000 000. But you know what, they are Americans, same as anyone else, and they deserve it too, unlike the reach fat a$$ CEO`s who sent the bigest companies over the edge and still accepted millions of dollars in bonuses. That is what is wrong here, little man,black and white, is getting run over by the rich folks who don`t care about nothing but how to make another million..

Db

I am not sure where you are getting your numbers but 1st they were never that high 2nd they have been debunked. out of the 48 million that dont have insurance 12 million are illegal and are not entitled to a damn thing except a one way ticket back home. that leaves about 36 million. Well out of that there are at least another 12 that are young and dont have insurance because they dont want it. So now we are going to force it upon them. so now we are down to roughly half of the original INFLATED number. Take out those that are between job coverage (not unemployed but left one job and going to another waiting on the insurance to kick in), and the ones that actually want to work but can not find a job because of the current Clinton imposed econimic situation and now we are down to roughly one quarter of the original number. 12 million out of 300 million is less than one half of one percent. That does not equal a problem.

The problem is that some folks think that because they are here, they are entitled to recieve something for free rather than pay for a service that they are recieving as the benifit of sombody elses hard work and labor. This is the land of opportunity not the land of entitelment. You get to pursue happiness not have it delivered to you.

And you are still not answering the question of where in the Constitution does it give Congress, POTUS, or any person in the government the ability to mandate that the 52% of people in the US that are actually paying taxes provide a single damn thing to the 48% that are either paying no taxes, or recieving more than they are paying. Tell me exactally what article and section that is in. The Constitution puts the limits on what the federal government can do. If you read it, you will find that health care is not anywhere in the Consitution or any of the Ammendments. That right there should be the end of the story.

As far as those that want uncle sugar to provide them health care they are more than free to pack their bags, and move to a country that offers that service. It is not an option with this model of government. Just like getting a cummings engine is not an option with a Ford Truck.

[Guest redbarron06]

no, they become rich because they have working man working for minimum wage for them and the old formula about getting rich by working hard...you can forget that, those days are gone...

Db

And what is wrong with me hiring sombody to cut my grass at minimum wage? I am not sure how things are in Eurpoe but let me clue you in to some American History. If I can hire somebody to do the job at minimum wage I will. If I can't, I will raise what I am willing to pay until somebody will do it at that wage. That is how I save money. That is how I can hire one guy to cut the grass for 7.50 and another to clean out the gutters for 9 rather than pay one guy 20 an hour to do both. We live in a country that (at least it used to) reward those that go out and risk to make a living. As long as people are willing to work for minimum wage then that is just what they will work for.

Ever heard of Dave Ramsey? He has been bankrupt before. What about Bill Gates. yep him too. The guy that made IBM a multi billion dollar coproration had a job there sweeping floors when he started. That is how you get ahead in the US. You either work harder and smarter than the next guy or you come up with an idea and sell it. The first boss I had when I got off of active duty had a brother that worked with UPS. He started out loading and unloading trucks. He worked hard and went and did what they told him to do. When he retired he was the #3 guy in the freaking company and living in "Country Club of the South" with the Ga Govenor, and pro ball players as neighbors.

[Guest slothful1]

12 million out of 300 million is less than one half of one percent.

Actually that's about 4%, but I think your point is still sound.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

I lived in Germany for 5 years, so I know what is that I`m talking about, I have friends all over the Europe also, being from Europe I know little more than many people here and they are going to have a problem trying to sell me a scare tactics about socialized health care. Yes, we here have a great health care, if you are covered, if you don`t get droped because of preegzisting condition or million other reasons. Health insurances here have an army of lawyers who don`t do anything else but try to find a flaw in your profile if they get the hospital bill they don`t wont to pay.I work for goverment and I personaly have very good health care insurance but its not all about me, there is 50 000 000 american people who don`t have nothing. And I know what a problem is, problem is in the fact that most of those people are black but nobody admits that but we all know about it. Blacks are the poorest and most of those 50 000 000. But you know what, they are Americans, same as anyone else, and they deserve it too, unlike the reach fat a$$ CEO`s who sent the bigest companies over the edge and still accepted millions of dollars in bonuses. That is what is wrong here, little man,black and white, is getting run over by the rich folks who don`t care about nothing but how to make another million..

no, they become rich because they have working man working for minimum wage for them and the old formula about getting rich by working hard...you can forget that, those days are gone...

On what premise do you base these findings? I personally know several millionaires who made their money working hard. They didn't have it to begin with either. Nor are they all business owners. I also know many people who are low income by choice, and could care less to be rich.

Additionally, many of the richest companies with the richest CEO's treat their employees extremely well. Ever hear of Microsoft, Google, W.L. Gore (Gore-tex)? And I'm sure the evil CEO of insurance giant Aflac made it the 26th best company to work for (according to Forbes) because he keeps all the money and pays minimum wage.

Are there greedy people at the top? Sure, but they are in the minority. Do you think their aren't greedy people in government?

Do you honestly believe that the only way to make a million dollars is to screw someone over? Or that only greedy people get rich? There are plenty of rich people who could care less about the money, they just happen to be very good at what they do.

If you think material envy is an excuse to violate the constitution, your moral compass is quite skewed.

[Mark@Sea]

If you can't win the debate on facts, attack your opponent, is that the way it works?

Why turn a healthcare debate into a class-warfare attack? Because the facts don't support your case - so instead of blaming it on sound principles of free market and personal choice, blame the "evil rich" white man, evil insurance megacorps, and/or dumb, racist rednecks.

That sort of attack only works if your opponent allows it to. After 8 years of that screeching during the Bush presidency, it has become pretty easy to recognise. I won't buy it. State supporting facts.

By the way, last I checked Lufthansa from Atlanta to Berlin was about 600 bucks. Those that grew up with, and really want, a socialized government are free to find one. Just not here.

[bubbiesdad]

Originally Posted by CK1

So, before any of you extreme right-wing wingnut/tin-foil hatters break out your gear to run down and ruin any intelligent discussion or debate at your local town hall meetings regarding health care reform, figured i'd give you a quick heads up so you can avoid looking stupid (or get busted up by the Unions who have announced to stand against you)...

No need, they've started only letting obedient sheep into the "town hall" meetings.

[Guest thorn]

So, before any of you extreme right-wing wingnut/tin-foil hatters break out your gear to run down and ruin any intelligent discussion or debate at your local town hall meetings regarding health care reform, figured i'd give you a quick heads up so you can avoid looking stupid (or get busted up by the Unions who have announced to stand against you)...

FYI, Conservatives For Patients' Rights, the wonderful company that has been spending like crazy running false-truth/scare tactic/paranoia commercials in middle TN and other areas with "low education/high intolerance" communities in an aim to block heath care reform, and funding (oh, i mean "organizing") fake grassroots support for people to crash town hall meetings and disrupt the health care reform proceedings, may not be the picture of patriotism that you may have thought.

you see, CPR is a multimillion dollar, non-profit lobbying group founded and funded by former hospital executive Rick Scott. Scott was ousted as chief executive officer of the Columbia/Hospital Corporation of America in 1997, after the hospital chain was investigated for fraud. In a plea agreement, the company paid $1.7 billion to settle the charges.

Scott started CPR in March 2009, seeding the group with $5 million of his own money to "promote free-market health care reform solutions" and lobby against President Barack Obama's proposal for a government-run health care option.

Creative Response Concepts, a conservative public relations firm known for its 'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' campaign during the 2004 presidential campaign, handles CPR's messaging.

their commercial "Squeeze" has been running nationally on CNN and Fox News, and is part of a $1.4 million buy that began July 15th despite the fact that although CPR lists individual sources for each statement in the ad, the facts are largely taken out of context, come from biased industry groups or have been discredited.

stopping, or getting in the way of meaningful health reform means you have chosen to be a part of causing or prolonging someone's suffering!

you can check my facts, just thought you'd like to know...

-and oh yeah... Police Departments, Fire Departments, and the U.S. Postal Service are all examples of things someone could call "Socialist" that are partly government run for the common good that work, and work well, so please spare me, or anyone else any overtly racist "Obama as the Joker" etc. type BS... you're not fooling anyone.

i pray none of you, or those you love gets sick and can't afford treatment.

remember, Jesus was a liberal, Hitler was a conservative.

seeing this unrestrained, overtly racist, right wing posturing on TGO every single time i take a look at this site gets infuriating... i see more "us versus them" than i see anything that resembles any political ideology and being a firearm enthusiast is NOT synonymous with these beliefs and just gives us all a bad name.

i know i could get thrown off this site for voicing these opinions (even though there's an amendment i believe that's BEFORE the 2nd amendment...) but i just don't really care. this "one-side being represented only" is getting out of control.

It shows all the credibility needed that you can copy and paste from the Kaiser website Ad Audit: Conservatives For Patients' Rights "Squeezes" The Truth - Kaiser Health News Note that the supposed facts come from the "Urban Institute, a nonpartisan think tank" just a little research will show you that the Urban Institute is funded in part by the Kaiser Institute itself.

I suggest you educate yourself more broadly before you quote the company sued by the EPA under new law, healthcare company started as a union thug concession, so politicians could make money off a company sold to China, while we banned and exported another part of what made us a great as a Country forever reducing our GDP - in an effort to chastise me. I'll accept your label but not ignorance.

Edited August 8, 2009 by thorn

[Guest Britestar]

I happen to be one of those who CANNOT get health insurance on my own. I am self employed and have diabetes and I am over 50 yrs old. The last insurace I had cost me for my wife and I 979 dollars a month. I could not afford to keep it and since we lost it we now cannot get any insurance. However I DO NOT support goverment health insurance. I would not wish that on my children, grandchildren or friends. Lanny Davis a prominent liberal and a part of the Clinton Whitehouse this morning said that he did not understand the plan and he has a Masters from Yale. So why are people supporting something the congress has not read nor has the President by his own admission and no one understands. If they want health care reform then let them make it lawful to purchase health insurance across state lines and drop the provision that prohibits pre existing conditions and extend cobra or legalize employees taking their insurance with them when they leave an employer and watch the rates drop.

[bubbiesdad]

So, before any of you extreme right-wing wingnut/tin-foil hatters break out your gear to run down and ruin any intelligent discussion or debate at your local town hall meetings regarding health care reform, figured i'd give you a quick heads up so you can avoid looking stupid (or get busted up by the Unions who have announced to stand against you)...

FYI, Conservatives For Patients' Rights, the wonderful company that has been spending like crazy running false-truth/scare tactic/paranoia commercials in middle TN and other areas with "low education/high intolerance" communities in an aim to block heath care reform, and funding (oh, i mean "organizing") fake grassroots support for people to crash town hall meetings and disrupt the health care reform proceedings, may not be the picture of patriotism that you may have thought.

you see, CPR is a multimillion dollar, non-profit lobbying group founded and funded by former hospital executive Rick Scott. Scott was ousted as chief executive officer of the Columbia/Hospital Corporation of America in 1997, after the hospital chain was investigated for fraud. In a plea agreement, the company paid $1.7 billion to settle the charges.

Scott started CPR in March 2009, seeding the group with $5 million of his own money to "promote free-market health care reform solutions" and lobby against President Barack Obama's proposal for a government-run health care option.

Creative Response Concepts, a conservative public relations firm known for its 'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' campaign during the 2004 presidential campaign, handles CPR's messaging.

their commercial "Squeeze" has been running nationally on CNN and Fox News, and is part of a $1.4 million buy that began July 15th despite the fact that although CPR lists individual sources for each statement in the ad, the facts are largely taken out of context, come from biased industry groups or have been discredited.

stopping, or getting in the way of meaningful health reform means you have chosen to be a part of causing or prolonging someone's suffering!

you can check my facts, just thought you'd like to know...

-and oh yeah... Police Departments, Fire Departments, and the U.S. Postal Service are all examples of things someone could call "Socialist" that are partly government run for the common good that work, and work well, so please spare me, or anyone else any overtly racist "Obama as the Joker" etc. type BS... you're not fooling anyone.

i pray none of you, or those you love gets sick and can't afford treatment.

remember, Jesus was a liberal, Hitler was a conservative.

seeing this unrestrained, overtly racist, right wing posturing on TGO every single time i take a look at this site gets infuriating... i see more "us versus them" than i see anything that resembles any political ideology and being a firearm enthusiast is NOT synonymous with these beliefs and just gives us all a bad name.

i know i could get thrown off this site for voicing these opinions (even though there's an amendment i believe that's BEFORE the 2nd amendment...) but i just don't really care. this "one-side being represented only" is getting out of control.

So, the pro Obama/high tax/rationed health care crowd sound pretty racist themselves.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/25375-st-louis-tea-party-seiu-office-demand-justice-denounce-violence.html

[Guest redbarron06]

Well lets look at some examples of the fine government health care system. Take for example the care that is provided those that swear an oath to defend our country.

Airman lost legs after gallbladder surgery

During the procedure, surgeons nicked or punctured an aorta

updated 8:56 p.m. CT, Tues., July 21, 2009

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - An airman lost parts of both legs and was in critical condition after routine gallbladder surgery at Travis Air Force Base went terribly wrong, his family said.

Airman 1st Class Colton Read was supposed to get his gallbladder removed laparoscopically — via a small incision — at Travis' David Grant Medical Center on July 9.

During the procedure, surgeons nicked or punctured an aorta, a large artery that carries blood from the heart throughout the body, according to his wife, Jessica Read. The surgeons repaired the breach enough to save his life, but the repair began leaking and disrupted the blood supply to his legs, she said.

Read was flown to UC Davis Medical Center in Sacramento, where doctors told the family that damage from the lack of blood required amputation. Family members say he's undergone 10 surgeries to remove dead tissue from his legs, leaving him without much of his right leg and the lower portion of his left.

And Read still hasn't had his gallbladder removed because of the surgery complications, relatives said.

Travis officials would not comment on specifics, only saying a "serious medical incident" occurred at the hospital. The case is under investigation by the base, a national hospital accrediting commission and the U.S. surgeon general.

VA hospitals inadequately serving women

Report finds that heath system not complying with privacy requirements

updated 8:04 p.m. CT, Wed., July 22, 2009

WASHINGTON - Veterans Affairs Department hospitals and clinics aren't always making sure women veterans have privacy when they bathe and receive exams, government auditors said Tuesday.

As thousands of women veterans return from Iraq and Afghanistan and enter the VA's health system, the Government Accountability Office reported that no VA hospital or outpatient clinic under review is complying fully with federal privacy requirements.

GAO investigators found that many VA facilities had gynecological tables that faced the door — including one door that opened to a waiting room. It also found instances where women had to walk through a waiting area to use the restroom, instead of it being next to an exam room as required by VA policy.

At four hospitals investigators visited, women were not guaranteed access to a private bathing facility. In two of those cases, there wasn't a lock on the door.

Female veterans told the Senate Veterans' Affairs committee that VA workers need to be better educated about combat situations that women face in the two ongoing wars. Beyond privacy concerns, there are other issues as well, they said, such as a lack of child care at VA hospitals and difficulty in finding diaper-changing tables.

"Many VA facilities are not prepared to accommodate the presence of children," said Kayla Williams, an Iraq veteran and author. "Several friends have described having to change babies' diapers on the floors of VA hospitals."

A majority of the women veterans who have turned up at VA facilities are between the ages of 20 and 29, and on average are much younger than the average male veteran, the GAO survey found. Nearly 20 percent have been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, and many experienced sexual trauma while serving. Yet, a smaller percentage of eligible women than men use VA care.

Randall Williamson, director of health care issues at GAO, said while top VA officials are committed to improvements in women's care, hospitals and clinics weren't always taking simple steps to make women more comfortable — such as moving the direction of exam tables.

"Part of it comes down to commitment at the local level," Williamson said. The GAO is the investigative arm of Congress.

Patricia Hayes, chief consultant of the veterans strategic health care group at the VA, said the VA recognizes the care given to women isn't as good as what's offered to men, but it's made changes and will continue to do so.

She said space constraints and the layout of buildings pose challenges, but the VA is putting together long-term plans for construction improvements. Changes under way "will build the system that will provide care equal to the health care needs of all America's veterans, regardless of gender," Hayes said.

In 2008, the VA provided health care to more than 281,000 women veterans, a 12 percent increase from 2006. Over the next two decades, the number of women veterans is expected to increase by 17 percent.

Congress is considering legislation by Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., that would mandate a review of barriers keeping women veterans from getting care from the VA and require the VA to start a pilot program to provide child care to women seeking mental health care.

Doc at center of VA cancer probe admits errors

92 prostate cancer patients received wrong radiation doses over 3 years

updated 4:04 p.m. CT, Mon., June 29, 2009

PHILADELPHIA - A doctor accused of botching dozens of prostate cancer surgeries at a Veterans Administration hospital admitted Monday that he sometimes missed his target when implanting radioactive seeds, leaving patients with incorrect dosages.

But Dr. Gary D. Kao called the mistakes commonplace in aiming seeds at the walnut-sized prostate, which sits near the bladder and rectum, and he steadfastly refused to become a scapegoat for the scandal at the VA Medical Center in Philadelphia.

“Contrary to the allegations that I was a ’rogue’ physician, ... I always acted in the best interest of the patients in delivering this important treatment,†Kao, a radiation oncologist, testified at a Senate field hearing at the hospital, where he worked from 2002 to 2008.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has found that 92 of 116 men treated in the hospital’s brachytherapy program received incorrect doses of the radiation seeds, often because they landed in nearby organs or surrounding tissue rather than the prostate. Kao performed the majority of the procedures under a VA contract with the University of Pennsylvania, where he was on staff.

Doctor said he didn't tell patients of errors

Under questioning from Sen. Arlen Specter, Kao acknowledged that he never informed patients when he missed the prostate or delivered insufficient doses.

Kao, however, said the mistakes did not necessarily amount to substandard care that had to be reported to the NRC or other agencies.

“Brachytherapy was and still is an evolving field,†he said.

Kao, 45, testified at the hearing voluntarily, albeit with a lawyer at his side. In a lengthy written statement, he said he earned his medical degree from Johns Hopkins University, did his radiation oncology residency at the University of Pennsylvania and has never been sued for malpractice.

Rep. John Adler, D-N.J., harshly questioned why he still had a medical license.

Rep. Chaka Fattah, D-Pa., seemingly defended Kao while questioning the long-term safety of the procedure, which thousands of men across the country have undergone in recent years.

Specter sought the middle ground, eliciting an apology and an awkward embrace from Kao to one of his alleged victims, the Rev. Ricardo Flippin.

Flippin, 68, of Charleston, W.Va., testified that he lost his job during five months he spent in bed, incapacitated, after Kao implanted seeds into his rectum instead of his prostate in 2005. The VA suggested he was suffering from hemorrhoids or constipation afterward, but an Ohio State University physician finally diagnosed the problem as radiation burn and surgically corrected it, Flippin said.

“Rev. Flippin, we should have, we can do better,†Kao said. “I hope we have a chance to do better for you and your colleagues in the future.â€

Flippin said he would have chosen another treatment option, such as having his prostate removed, had he known the risks involved with the radiation seeds.

The brachytherapy program at the VA Medical Center in Philadelphia has been suspended. A review of 12 other VA hospitals where the procedure is performed showed a handful of problems, but none on the same magnitude. The NRC also said, based on reporting by doctors and the agency’s own reviews, the problems at the Philadelphia hospital were far more frequent than U.S. hospitals overall.

Kao has stopped performing the surgeries and last week took a leave from the University of Pennsylvania.

One of the reasons that health care is so expensive is that if these doctors did this to you, you would have the option of filing a law suit against anybody and every body in involved. The hopital, the doctor, the nurses, the head surgeon, the guy that changed the bed pan if you wanted to. You could own your own hospital when it was over with. But hte folks that get up everymorning and strap on a pair of boots to defend this nation dont have that option. They say "ohh well". You lost your legs so you get 100% disability, 3k a month if you are lucky, which amounts to about jack:poop: when you can't walk.

Yea these are the guys I want taking care of my daughter, or my mother, or my great-grandmother.

No thanks I will keep the system that we have where the doctor knows he will be held accountable if he jacks me up.

[mcurrier]

-and oh yeah... Police Departments, Fire Departments, ......are all examples of things someone could call "Socialist" that are partly government run for the common good that work, and work well, so please spare me, or anyone else any overtly racist "Obama as the Joker" etc. type BS... you're not fooling anyone.

Just to clarify, those are NOT run by the Federal Government. Neither state govt. You've got to go a little lower and closer to the people. Sounds like...local govt.

I suppose it's possible that Obama could be a direct descendant of Jesus.

[mcurrier]

when I was 8 year old we had socialized health care and I didn`t have anything to worry about. When I was sick I would go to the doctor got checked,got my prescription,went to the pharmacy and then home. Didn`t cost me a one penny. Everybody had then (and most European countries do have it today) guaranteed health care. My mother just got diagnosed with brest cancer few weeks ago, after mamogram she was in the operating room in 2-3 days and was home in another 3-4 days. No insurance problems, no waiting, no circus with deductibles or secondary insurances or whos going to pay for what or I don`t know what. That is socialized healh care, when you`re sick you go to the doctor and you get treated. The problem here in US are gazilliondollars worth health insurance companies who would be out of business overnite if that happeneds and everything you watch on TV and all the propaganda how socialized health care is a some terrible thing is nothing but a bunch a bologna. I love that TV comercial with that woman from Canada who wasn`t happy with her health care in Canada so she came here...? but nobody told us how much she had to pay for it because I know, she didn`t have health insurance here being from Canada. Paying $800 for ambulance or $2000 for 4 hour wait and few shots of baby motrin and tylenol at the emergency room for your baby is another example of how working man gets riped off. US Goverment runs the whole country and I don`t see the reason why they couldn`t run successful health care.Don`t believe everythign you see and don`t judge something you don`t know anything about.And unles you lived in the socialist country you don`t know what socialized health care is all about. Germany is socialized country, and you`d like to have one of those new S Class Daimlers now, wouldn`t you?

Db

a. Where is this Utopia that you came from?

b. Why on earth did you leave it and come here?

c. Did the magic genie pay for all of that? Someone had to. Did the money come from the magic money tree? Unless other countries sent the money there, free of charge, then the money must have come internally. Now where/who does one get money from within their own borders? Citizens?

d. What is keeping you here? Honestly. There must be something good about America that outweighs all of the bad we are told about. I want to know what that golden nugget is so I can appreciate it.

[LagerHead]

So, before any of you extreme right-wing wingnut/tin-foil hatters break out your gear to run down and ruin any intelligent discussion

Too late, you already did that with your extreme left-wing wing nut, I pray at the alter of the Dhali Bama, everything conservative is evil, you can't possibly have a valid opinion because it disagrees with me opening statement. This is typical of ALL liberal statements that you try to pass off as an argument. You might as well start quoting the Brady bunch's line about how HCP holders are the scurge of America while you're up there on your high horse looking down on us poor, lost souls.

or debate at your local town hall meetings regarding health care reform, figured i'd give you a quick heads up so you can avoid looking stupid (or get busted up by the Unions who have announced to stand against you)...

Of which I'm sure you're a member. Don't mistake the members of this group for that guy in St. Louis(?) I will defend myself to the fullest extent of the law if any of those thugs try that crap on me. And I'm pretty sure that someone who is obviously a genius such as you knows to what extent I am referring.

FYI, Conservatives For Patients' Rights, the wonderful company that has been spending like crazy running false-truth/scare tactic/paranoia commercials in middle TN and other areas with "low education/high intolerance" communities in an aim to block heath care reform, and funding (oh, i mean "organizing") fake grassroots support for people to crash town hall meetings and disrupt the health care reform proceedings, may not be the picture of patriotism that you may have thought.

First, being insulting and insinuating that you can't possibly be educated or intelligent and be conservative at the same time is what makes liberals look like a bunch of tards. You might as well pull out some "yo momma" jokes and then claim a victory in the debate. Second, what you refer to as "fake grassroots" support just shows how out of touch with reality you really are. I would say, "Don't take my word for it, look at the polls," but I know that will never happen. Facts, statistics, polls, truth, honesty, integrity: all words that have no place in liberal arguments....er, I mean propaganda. (Arguments infers that you know something about the topic.) Third, can you explain to me why, during the 8 years that George W. Bush was president, dissent was the height of patriotism, but with Obama in office it's not "the picture of patriotism" that I thought?

stopping, or getting in the way of meaningful health reform means you have chosen to be a part of causing or prolonging someone's suffering!

Whose suffering? Is this an emotional argument, or a factual one? You need to get your head out of the sand, dude. Take a look at England's NHS. If it's so great, can you explain to me why the best jobs in England offer private health insurance AS A PERK? And while you're at it, can you explain why those who are offered it overwhelmingly accept it? Let's see, free health care by the government, or pay for private health care. And they choose the MORE EXPENSIVE option. That's because government run health care SUCKS. Period. That's why Congress and the Senate don't use it.

-and oh yeah... Police Departments, Fire Departments, and the U.S. Postal Service are all examples of things someone could call "Socialist" that are partly government run for the common good that work, and work well, so please spare me, or anyone else any overtly racist "Obama as the Joker" etc. type BS... you're not fooling anyone.

Now this is surprising. I can't believe that a liberal plant who is pretending to actually believe what he says (just taking a page out of your playbook, sorry) has resorted to playing....<insert dramatic music here>...THE RACE CARD!!! Gee I didn't see that coming. Why don't you just invoke Godwin's Law and get it over with?

Fire department and police departments are ones that the government is supposed to provide. It kind of goes along with providing for the common defense. And they are not particularly suited for private enterprise, unlike health care, which does a pretty damn good job. As for the post office, it's so wonderful that people are willing to pay much more for the inferior service of UPS, DHL, and Fed-Ex. Great examples.

i pray none of you, or those you love gets sick and can't afford treatment.

remember, Jesus was a liberal, Hitler was a conservative.

Oh, never mind. Godwin's Law has been invoked. Great argument for socialized medicine.

seeing this unrestrained, overtly racist, right wing posturing on TGO every single time i take a look at this site gets infuriating... i see more "us versus them" than i see anything that resembles any political ideology and being a firearm enthusiast is NOT synonymous with these beliefs and just gives us all a bad name.

If you and I were alone as the last two lifeforms in the Universe, there wouldn't be an "us" so I'm not sure to whom you are referring. And as far as health care, insurance, socialized medicine; I'm not sure what any of that has to do with being a firearms enthusiast. And if being against bigger government, socialism, government bullying and strong-arming, and refusing to buy in to the rhetoric of Pelosi, Reid, Boxer, Obama, and the like gives me a "bad name," well then I sure as hell don't want to have a good name.

i know i could get thrown off this site for voicing these opinions (even though there's an amendment i believe that's BEFORE the 2nd amendment...) but i just don't really care. this "one-side being represented only" is getting out of control.

I seriously doubt you will get thrown out. If anything, I will get thrown out first for my...ahem...heated response. And just so you know, the Amendments are only in numerical order, not order of importance. You probably didn't mean that, but it's certainly implied.

And as far as one side only being represented, that's not what's going on here. What is going on here is that we refuse to sit on our hands while elitists call us things like the "low education/high intolerance" crowd. If you think that being liberal means you're educated or tolerant, than you are far less intelligent than those you are so lamely attempting to insult.

To paraphrase Francois Guisot: "If you're under 30 and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're over 30 and not a conservative, you have no brain." I hope for your sake that you're under 30.

[TripleDigitRide]

Why is it that so many Liberals seem to be so darn angry all the time?

[Guest thorn]

Why is it that so many Liberals seem to be so darn angry all the time?

It's hard to put it into words but I'll make an attempt... Society, laws, and legislation have told them that what they do is ok, but the moral fiber inside them rips them apart.

[macville]

What are some ideas that would actually reform (aka: make the service better/cheaper) healthcare? The current plan isn't healthcare reform or even healthcare insurance reform (it's more about insurance than healthcare really).

Here's one idea I've had to at least make it better for people to get affordable insurance. If you don't have a employer provided health insurance (not that they pay all or any of it, just group insurance), then it costs a lot more to buy insurance on your own. I know because me and my wife own our own company and are the only employees of the company. Therefore, we can not get group insurance for our company because we are too small. However, if companies were not allowed to even provide group insurance (they could still pay for it if they wanted to, but that extra would be in your pay check each month to cover your costs) then you would shop for your own insurance. That way insurance companies have to be more competitive because they can't just go for big group accounts any more. Each person counts as a customer.

Another question is...why is health insurance so costly? The insurance companies are not making THAT big of a profit. When was the last time you heard any of them having a record quarter like the oil companies? Healthcare costs an arm and a leg. Just dealing with paying my grandfather's bills recently proved that to me. But why? The main reason I have been told it costs so much is that there are sooo many people who simply don't pay their bills. They don't have insurance and don't pay their bills. So in essence, we already have a welfare type system that's being paid through higher healthcare costs. Of course, lawsuits don't help either!

Simply put, healthcare and insurance needs to be reformed. However, switching to a single payer system won't work. If you think the post office is bleeding money right now, wait until you see the government healthcare plan!

Matthew

[Guest thorn]

The employer based healthcare is nothing but a dollar per hour incentive for the employee. Companies leverage with it to get better employees to make a better company. It has nothing to do with an employees well being and in fact is dependent on turn over and retirement.

The cost of insurance is based on the insurance company being stable and even profitable.

It does need work but it does not need to be turned inside out. I can't understand why insurance is an issue at all. A really good healthcare/insurance would start by being funded before birth only I'd want it to be my own bank account and not pay a bunch of middle men.

There's far too many advocates of this change that have done little to nothing to plan for health issues and see a free ride. It's sad that they've brought something to the table that's so damaging and dependent on something proven to fail time and time again. I'd offer that if we could fix our government that some of the needed change would come. Instead we have too many looking to the government to fix what they already control. It's like asking ACORN to get to the bottom of the Birth Certificate issue.

Edited August 8, 2009 by thorn

[Guest redbarron06]

Macville,

Why don't you and some other small buisness owners go in as a coopertive and get a plan? There are other ways to get insurance than just indiviudal and large group plans. I have worked for companies that have everybody paid through a payroll service. The payroll service is hired by several companies and therefore gets the power of a higher group rate. Higher numbers is always going to equal lower rates.

Anyway as far as reform we dont need medical reform. We have the best system in the world and that is proven. It would however be nice to have medical insurance more available to more people though and that area could use some reform.

Part of the problem is that the insurance companies have got so many customers. To explain lets look at Cigna (just to throw a name out there). If I am a doctor and I open up a regular family pratice then I want to make sure that I accept the plans that are used in my area to get the buisness in my area. If I decide to take Cigna then I am agreeing to accept what they decide to pay me for an office visit. For example, just to throw a number out there, say Cigna will pay $60 per office visit. Well after sitting down and working out my budget I discover that all of my over head I need to take 10 office visits a week @ $100 each in order to keep the doors open. I am keeping the numbers small and simple because I hate math. So basicly I need to bring in 1k per week in order to stay in buisness and not even make any money. Well lest say 5 of those people are Cigna customers and 5 dont have insurance at all. If Cigna is only paying $60 per visit then the other 5 are going to have to get charged $140 in order for me to stay open. This is one of the things that drives up the cost for those that dont have insurance. This is an even bigger problem at the hospital level. Why does an asprin cost $15? This is part of the problem

I belive that the biggest problem with health insuance though is not that too many people cant get it but that too many people use it too much. When I first got out of the service I used insurance maybe 2 times a year. Other than that I was just paying into the system. Now I am a little older married child and all of that so I have all of the check ups, wifey things, and me. I dont think twice about going to the doctor because I drop them $25 and go about my buisness, then I turn around and send my reciept to the Flex company and get my $25 back. I dont loose a cent, up to a certain point. Though I dont do it, I know of people that will go into the doctors office for anything more than a headache. They drop that $25 or 10 or 5 or what ever the co-pay is and next thing you know the doctor needs a ton of those $140 visits to make up for all of those $60 ones. Now what can we do to reduce the number of BS visits. Remove the copay and set a deductible for the first "X" dollars per year.

Think about it this way. If you have a copay on your car or home owners insuranace rather than a deductable, you would be getting a new paint job every time you got a door ding in the mall parking lot. Drop the car off give Maaco $25 and get a new paint job. If every body had say a 2K a year deductiable on medical insurance then it would cut down on a lot of the BS visits. Sure you if you are sick or have an injury you are still going to go in and pay that $100 visit now but you are not going to wake up with a headache and go to the doctors office and drop your $10 copay. At least you wont at the beginning of the year. You might be able to by the time September rolls around unless you have some serious issues early.

I also think that Health insurance should be written like home owners and auto insurance. They look at your credit history, they look at your driving record and the number of claims in the last few years. Insurance is a gamble and just because they open a buisness does not mean they are making money. Right now most folks in any company pay about the same for the same coverage. Lets say that XYZ company has 200 employes and they use Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Every employee that is single pays $100 per paycheck (every other week) to insurance for himslef and $50 per dependant. Well the young 23 year old collage stud that has never been sick in his life is paying $2600 a year just like the 48 year old head of Human rescources that has high blood pressure and has already had one bypass surgery. Odds are that he will have more medical problems than the 23 year old and will cost the insurance company more. He should be paying more for his insurance than the guy that is pretty much healthy. Now if he can go a certain period of time with X claims or less per year then his rates will decrease down to a minimum.

I also think that once you sign on with an insurance company they should not be able to cancel you as long as you are with the same company or if you change to a company that uses the same insurance company. If you get diabieties and you work for ABC and have Cigna they should cover you until you leave Cigna even if you go to work for XYZ as long as they offer Cigna and you have no break in coverage. I do think they should be able to adjust your rates at the beginning of each enrollment period beacuse you may become more or less of a risk.

Of course all of this can be avioded by doing 20 years in the military and getting free govt insurance for the rest of your life. If you can find a doctor that takes Tricare and are willing to make those 20 years worth of payments then you will be covered.

[Punisher84]

It's good to read 5 pages of thread and see that some people still have sense in this country!

Can 44M take CK1 and go back to the promised land? Hyaloid, I'm not trying to be inflammatory so please don't delete my post or lock the thread!! I have a valid point which I will make below...

I always believed America was supposed to be different, we were supposed to stand out and be that shimmering hope on the horizon. So why is it that some people here just want to make us like everyone else? Why not move there? If England and Canada have no guns and socialized healthcare and it's just so great why not pack your crap and move? It makes no sense to me to stay in a place you obviously hate.

This country was founded on specific ideals to allow us to be different, to be free, not status quo.

[Guest slothful1]

SRN News : Obama's health care plan helped by drug industry

So the Demonrats can give lip service to demonizing the Big, Bad Drug Companies... while those same companies are quietly spending big bucks to promote Obama's agenda. Is this a bad thing, or are we only supposed to be suspicious of big money special interests when they're on the other side?

[Guest Hyaloid]

It's good to read 5 pages of thread and see that some people still have sense in this country!

Can 44M take CK1 and go back to the promised land? Hyaloid, I'm not trying to be inflammatory so please don't delete my post or lock the thread!! I have a valid point which I will make below...

I always believed America was supposed to be different, we were supposed to stand out and be that shimmering hope on the horizon. So why is it that some people here just want to make us like everyone else? Why not move there? If England and Canada have no guns and socialized healthcare and it's just so great why not pack your crap and move? It makes no sense to me to stay in a place you obviously hate.

This country was founded on specific ideals to allow us to be different, to be free, not status quo.

Playing Devil's Advocate:

However, the beauty of our country is that we are free to take the best from other societies and implement those ideas within our existing framework. Our founding fathers attempted to blend the best of Ancient Greece, Rome and British political and religious history to form our Republic (among other cultures to be sure). They did not operate in a vacuum, and looked towards and with Europe for contemporary (for their time) debate.

So, just because an idea is foreign to the US, does not make it a bad idea. The trick is balancing personal liberty with the implementation of new ideas, and that's what the argument here really hinges on.

We, in my opinion, must be careful to say, "Like it or leave it bub!"... one day we may be on the flip side of that ultimatum. It doesn't bother me when people disagree, what bothers me is when they try to force those beliefs on others by working outside our Constitutional framework.

But, I digress. Again, merely playing devil's advocate, but anyone here legally has a right to have their say in the direction our country takes. However, we all have a responsibility to be educated on our responsibilities as citizens, and the history of our country and our government, and try to work within that framework to enact change.

Sorry, got a bit ramble-iffic there.

[mcurrier]

Why is it that so many Liberals seem to be so darn angry all the time?

It's what I like to call "liberal guilt". They rely too much on their feelings about things. Both how they perceive things are in the world and how things externally affect them.

When they were a child someone told them that cutting down a tree to build a home or make paper was bad. No one ever explained to them that those trees are replenished. They think that all carbon dioxide is bad, but they must have missed science class where they would have learned that trees breath carbon dioxide like humans breath oxygen. Trees 'exhale' what we breath and we exhale what they breath (4-5% CO2). What a concept! Only a higher omnipotent power (GOD) could have come up with something so complex and yet so simple.

They think that everyone in the world is starving and if you eat one less hamburger, there will somehow magically be an extra hamburger for someone else 8,000 miles away to eat.

They think that using one square of toilet paper will save the world.

They think that you working hard to make a living and then coming home to relax in the cool air-conditioned comfort of your home is evil. News flash - God gave man technology to better himself and to live a more blessed and comfortable life.

I call the Toyota Prius the "liberal guilt mobile". If I see one coming down the road, you can bet that 9 times out of 10 there is an Obama sticker on it. Liberal guilt. It is not 'saving' the planet any more than not eating is. I do know a conservative/republican who drives one, but he does not have it to 'save' the planet. He just liked the way it looked and it fits in his very tiny garage. My own car gets 33.5 mph on the highway (real word driving, not what the sticker on the window said), and it's not any fancy schmancy hybrid or anything like that. Hey liberals! Where do you think the majority of U.S. electricity comes from? COAL! May we have your elite permission to build any nuclear power plants? No? Then I guess we'll keep using coal. The U.S. is the Saudi Arabia of coal.

Why did so many white people (I wasn't the one counting, they were) vote for Obama? Liberal guilt. By the same token we could ask why so many black people voted for Obama (and still give him very high ratings compared to whites overall and the whites who originally voted for him). Is that racism? Seems so, in one direction more than the other. But we were always told that it was the other way around.

I could go on and on for many pages how the liberal kooks think that everything we have and do is destroying the planet. If they feel so guilty, I say that we give them an island somewhere and they can all go there and revert themselves back to the stone age if they'd like. We'll check back in 30 years (or not) and see how they like it. What will they build shelters with? What will they use for fuel to cook with? These are interesting questions.

But liberals need to understand that they are not going to put their feelings of guilt on the rest of us and try to force us to live like they think we should. Otherwise turnabout is fair play and we'll kick their doors in and forcefully cram bibles down their throats. That's the difference between us and them, we say live and let live, they say do it our way or else. That's tolerance for you. More like hypocrisy. Ever notice how many of them who propose to tell us what to do and how to live don't actually do that themselves? Al_gore anyone? No, they say do as I say, not as I do because they think that they know better. They don't. The majority of us know what is better for ourselves than a minority of them trying to use government to force their will upon us. And that is about to end thanks to Obama. Just like Jimmy Carter brought us Ronald Reagan, Obama is bringing a backlash of change in this country that will get it headed in the right direction like it hasn't gone in a long time after his short reign is over. Who will be leading us? I don't have a name right now, but just as Obama is Jimmy Carter II, this next person will be Ronald Reagan II. I CAN'T WAIT to see what happens in 2010 and 2012!

Edited August 8, 2009 by mcurrier
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