Israeli Combat Training in TN

[bwswanson]

Do you have any handgun classes planned for Memphis anytime soon?

[Guest Ben]

Do you have any handgun classes planned for Memphis anytime soon?

I am organizing a couple of training classes in the Memphis and MS area soon.

I currently have a group of around 5 that are interested and I like to keep class sizes small for individual attention (max 6 participants per session).

Please email me at Ben@israelicombattraining.com with your information and what you are looking for and then I will have you in my system. When a class is about to be formed, I will let you know via email.

Thank you for your interest!

Ben

[Guest logicprevails]

I just thought the stance looked funny and, of course, there may be a logical explanation as to why Ben is standing that way. To the casual observer, it seems to increase your profile and expose two of the largest arteries in your body.

I can't guarantee that you are actually meaning anything when you say "To the 23 year old troll", but while my post was a little trollish (I couldn't hold back the sarcasm) my being 23 years old has nothing to do with anything, and the fact that you even bring up my age is simply argument ad hominem. For all you know, I could be in the special forces and have more experience than anyone on this board. So, please refrain from personal attacks if you will.

We all know the bullets don't go exactly where you want every time. So, if you are going to "accidentally" get hit in the leg, wouldn't you want it to go into the top your quad instead of your inner thigh, which could bleed you out in short order?

Still, the question still stands, Ben, why are you standing like that?

A couple of points I'd like to add. 1.) Most defenseive stances look funny to the casual observer, but not so much to a person exposed to the many philosophies of defense, whether it be of armed or unarmed tactics. 2.) I understand your offense to argumentum ad hominum; however the statistical likelihood that anyone 23 years of age has more experience than any of the 4,823 members on this forum in the area of defensive tactics is uber slim, so I would assess the comment to be based on that logic. 3) Even if you were SFOD, 5 years experience would be a thin bet against 4,823 individuals. 4.) Not sure how you protect both femoral arteries unless you intend to fight from the bullseye stance or completely pigeon-toed holding a card between your knees, as isosceles, weaver, and modified weaver all present some exposure...remember the femoral artery is an extension of the iliac artery which is exposed at the groin flap. The point of the stance is to allow training to become part of your innate fight or flight response as an 'initial action' enabling transition to a cognitive choice to engage. Fact remains that a low isoscles or crouch utilizing gross motor coordination to begin engagement is proven to be successful. I doubt Ben, or any trained operator, would remain stationary long enough for a quad shot vs. artery shot to be much more of a factor than it already would be with bullets whizzing.

Edited August 17, 2009 by logicprevails
grammar

[Guest Ben]

Truth is, I prefer a "Penis Forward" stance.

I like to present the biggest target possible to my enemy.

lol

[Guest logicprevails]

Truth is, I prefer a "Penis Forward" stance.

I like to present the biggest target possible to my enemy.

lol

Hah. Shoot 'em while they're distracted.

[xd shooter]

OMG his head & upper body is exposed too!!!

What is he sopposed to do? Hide behind the grass?

From the way I see it his center of gravity is very low, good stability, & looking straight down his sights in a locked positin.

Ben all I can say is I wish you were not so far away.

[Guest bkelm18]

Xd Shooter brings up a good point, Ben. Your head is wayyyyyy too exposed. Tactical Elite West Side Crip Snipers would have a field day with you. You should listen to my totally unqualified opinion and work on that.

[TK47]

Truth is, I prefer a "Penis Forward" stance.

lol

That's right! Aggressive intimidation of your oponent from the start could be tactically advatageous!

TK47

[Guest Ben]

OMG his head & upper body is exposed too!!!

What is he sopposed to do? Hide behind the grass?

From the way I see it his center of gravity is very low, good stability, & looking straight down his sights in a locked positin.

Ben all I can say is I wish you were not so far away.

Go ahead and get a small group of like minded people in your area for a 1 or 2 day session. I am mobile.

[Guest canynracer]

Ok everyone...lets not beat up the dude anymore...he asked a question to Ben, and Ben answered it (very well I might add).

Kelemvor, I would suggest using more of a social tact when you are asking a question. I would suspect that you asked it, thinking you would get some supporters, and maybe a few laughs, but alas, that didnt work out that well.

I dont care how old you are, or how much experience you have, I dont care if you train the trainers for the trainers of the Navy Seals, and the president calls you directly when your uber tactics are needed because all else failed...bottom line, if it wasnt humor you were attempting, know this...personal attacks will not be tolerated by anyone, reguardless of skillset.

Thank You all,

Someone please get and KEEP this thread back on track.

[Punisher84]

Thank You all,

Someone please get and KEEP this thread back on track.

OK.

Ben, one thing I was curious about from watching you train at the range and after watching some of the videos was, is there any incorporation of Krav Maga into your actual gun fighting style? I know the two are different obviously, but watching the way you lower your profile and present reminded me alot of some of our stances in tae-kwon-do. Just curious about if that is trained incorporation or just your own style.

I.E it is alot easier for me to drop into the type of stance you show in your avatar simply because a stance that was ingrained in me from years of tae-kwon-do is the "horse stance" which is similar.

[Kelemvor]

Yea, but your probably not and to insinuate that you are is a slap in the face to the actual servicemen and women on this board.

I also doubt at 23 you have much more experience than most of the guys here our age. I certainly doubt you have more experience that 99.9% of our instructors here, including Ben.

I also would be willing to bet since you didn't even bother to check off the HCP and military service box you're just another one of our trolls that have been running around this board lately trying to act all uppity and wrecking valuable threads.

My suggestion would be to try and add something of value or ask your question in a polite manner.

Most special forces guys I know, and I know a few, would not make a silly statement like that. They are honorable soldiers and feel no need to play "one up" when someone calls them on their game. Playing COD4 doesn't count bud.

Firstly, at no point did I say, "I am in the special forces and have tons of experience." I was just making the point that there is no way to determine, with any level of accuracy, my weapons experience by the fact that I am 23 years old. I always have the same issue when arguing with "older wiser" folks who assume that because of my age, I am incapable of comprehending the mysteries of the universe. Please, if you are going to argue with me, find another crutch. Pointing my age out is about as pertinent, in almost any debate, as pointing out my astrological sign.

Secondly, I'll thank you to not accuse me of insulting military personnel by saying that you do not know whether I am highly trained or not. I am thankful for the men and women that defend my freedom and respect their dedication. Making a comparison by insinuating that I am not "honorable" like they are, or that (even if I had actually made the claim) saying that I am amongst them is a "slap in the face" is an outright attack on my character and I would appreciate that you show me the same courtesy that I show those I debate with and refrain from such childish rhetoric.

Lastly, Ben, thank you for your reasonable reply. I would have imagined that you would have had the most reason to be pissed since I was talking about your stance, but you handled it very well. It makes sense to train to benefit the most from your natural stance. I think I would personally train to either make my natural stance more narrow (perhaps with knees bent forward) or condition myself to not be surprised, so that I can act independently of any fight or flight responses. Feel free to explain why you prefer your method if you like. In the meantime, I will probably have to explain to more guys why being 23 doesn't matter to people that have meaningful contributions to a discussion.

P.S. I do see how the "Penis Forward" could be beneficial. You could, perhaps, integrate Krav Maga takedowns to your gun work, depending on how well endowed you are.

[Punisher84]

Firstly, at no point did I say, "I am in the special forces and have tons of experience." I was just making the point that there is no way to determine, with any level of accuracy, my weapons experience by the fact that I am 23 years old. I always have the same issue when arguing with "older wiser" folks who assume that because of my age, I am incapable of comprehending the mysteries of the universe. Please, if you are going to argue with me, find another crutch. Pointing my age out is about as pertinent, in almost any debate, as pointing out my astrological sign.

Secondly, I'll thank you to not accuse me of insulting military personnel by saying that you do not know whether I am highly trained or not. I am thankful for the men and women that defend my freedom and respect their dedication. Making a comparison by insinuating that I am not "honorable" like they are, or that (even if I had actually made the claim) saying that I am amongst them is a "slap in the face" is an outright attack on my character and I would appreciate that you show me the same courtesy that I show those I debate with and refrain from such childish rhetoric.

Lastly, Ben, thank you for your reasonable reply. I would have imagined that you would have had the most reason to be pissed since I was talking about your stance, but you handled it very well. It makes sense to train to benefit the most from your natural stance. I think I would personally train to either make my natural stance more narrow (perhaps with knees bent forward) or condition myself to not be surprised, so that I can act independently of any fight or flight responses. Feel free to explain why you prefer your method if you like. In the meantime, I will probably have to explain to more guys why being 23 doesn't matter to people that have meaningful contributions to a discussion.

I get the age thing and didn't really attack your age. I don't care for it personally myself. There are just some facts that come into play with valuable military/LEO training that would not necessarily be available to someone our age, especially a private citizen. I just didn't care for your sarcastic remark and your insinuation that you might be a member of our elite forces, just because you got called out for a bad comment. I get your point, but knowing guys that have EARNED the privilege to be called Spec Ops/Spec Forces, I just don't think it's a good thing to compare yourself too. If you've trained privately at different schools and stuff since you were 18/21 that's cool, but there is no experience like combat experience.

Relax the 2 guys you quoted are a year older than you and we're not combat ninjas either. Ben made a good reply. We can all be friends again, see ya at the White House for beer and pretzels. Bkelm needs to break out his Sunday hat anyway.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Punisher84

[Guest logicprevails]

OK.

Ben, one thing I was curious about from watching you train at the range and after watching some of the videos was, is there any incorporation of Krav Maga into your actual gun fighting style? I know the two are different obviously, but watching the way you lower your profile and present reminded me alot of some of our stances in tae-kwon-do. Just curious about if that is trained incorporation or just your own style.

I.E it is alot easier for me to drop into the type of stance you show in your avatar simply because a stance that was ingrained in me from years of tae-kwon-do is the "horse stance" which is similar.

You know, that's a very interesting observation. Martial arts training must tend to positively incorporate itself into the dynamics of defensive or offensive weaponry. That comment really made me think. I started in martial arts as a child, so I guess it has always 'felt' incorporated when I started practical pistol as an adult. My wife, however, started shooting with me a couple of years before she got involved in martial arts. Watching her improvement with tactical pistol, it's obvious that gains regarding using stances, balance, movement and position increased because of martial arts training. It's so obvious it plumb evaded me. We old farts can learn from young dudes .

[Punisher84]

You know, that's a very interesting observation. Martial arts training must tend to positively incorporate itself into the dynamics of defensive or offensive weaponry. That comment really made me think. I started in martial arts as a child, so I guess it has always 'felt' incorporated when I started practical pistol as an adult. My wife, however, started shooting with me a couple of years before she got involved in martial arts. Watching her improvement with tactical pistol, it's obvious that gains regarding using stances, balance, movement and position increased because of martial arts training. It's so obvious it plumb evaded me. We old farts can learn from young dudes .

I honestly didn't think much about it until I started doing alot of defensive shooting and I'd notice myself naturally falling into fighting stances that I had used for years in martial arts.

Watching Ben and others since has really caught my interest in that type of "cross-over incorporation" if you will.

[Punisher84]

For the record some misunderstandings were cleared up in pm and I apologize for any thread detraction on my part.

Carry on.

[Guest Ben]

Regarding the question of how Krav Maga and the Israeli technique might cross over...

It is a VERY good question. In Krav Maga (the Israeli hand to hand combat), the stance is very similar to what you see while I am shooting (i.e. facing directly, full bodied towards opponent, arms up, but with elbows bent and with forearms and palms facing opponent, almost "welcoming" an attack).

The legs are positioned with "support" leg forward and dominant leg in the rear, on the "balls" of your feet, ready to kick, knees bent and legs spread about shoulder width apart.

This stance allows you to confront any attack from any angle or position while also using the Israeli methods of "efficiency or economy of movement." Meaning, 1 position (your arms for instance) allows you to both strike and block without changing your stance.

It also puts you in a great position to use elbows and knees as weapons.

To answer the question, Krav Maga and Israeli combat firearms stances are very similar in key regards (forward facing, not bladed, efficiency of movement, "forward" and aggressive posture, knees bent, head tucked, center of gravity lower...) and as in combat firearms positioning, Krav Maga brings you to a form of your instinctive reaction and position when under a high stress attack circumstance.

I teach Krav techniques in every training session.

Any operator/warrior needs to be able to transition seamlessly from armed to unarmed combat or vice versa. All it takes is a weapons failure (hello Mr. Murphy and your crappy laws!!!) or a "point zero" attack where you do not have time to draw...

That is why you must learn to FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE. You may as well learn 2 fighting methods that are intertwined on their respective base levels and are VERY aggressive.

Thank you for the question. Please folks, feel free to ask away. The more I answer the more the answers drill into my memory.

Ben

[Guest Ben]

Feel free to explain why you prefer your method if you like.

Look, I know that training methods, stance, fighting techniques and styles come a dime a dozen.

I also know that I learned these techniques that I teach (and use while on duty in Israel) from some of the most experienced counter terror operators on the planet, who in some cases have over 32 years of individual experience literally clearing hijacked buses, planes, airports (as in the Entebbe raid) schools, fighting in 3 or more wars and that continue to update their training annually by actually being a part of their original units (Sayeret Matkal, YAMAM,

SHAYETET 13 see below for explanations of terms/units) and engaging in combat operations even to this day when called upon.

Sayeret Matkal = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayeret_Matkal

YAMAM = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamam

SHAYETET 13 = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shayetet_13

Realize, these operators literally wrote the book on counter terror warfare.

They have trained and trained with America's Delta Force, Russian Spetsnaz, German GSG9 etc... and these people do not screw around.

Now, why do I personally favor this stance or these methods. Well, partially because I am an operator within the Israeli security and military establishment and partially because I have seen first hand how these methods work successfully.

No method is fool proof. No method is a magic wand that "POOF", your enemy is dead...

But, I have seen in person, I have done in person and I continue to see how these methods work to secure some of the most volatile real estate on the planet.

As far as the actual stance itself, I truly believe that this stance is the most natural and instinctive for actual "ass on the line" combat shooting. It is not comfortable. It is not easy. BUT, you can learn it in 2hours and then drill it thousands of times until it becomes core muscle memory.

I guess you can compare the stance I use the following way:

You have capoeira, and you have krav maga. (I am not picking on capoeira, It simply makes a fine comparison).

Capoeira is great as a sport, as a show and as a demonstration of physical fitness, but if you are looking for a program that teaches you to fight for your life when attacked, you are seriously screwed if your capoeira is going up against krav maga.

Krav is a brutal, no holds barred aggressive fighting technique (thumbs ripping out eyes, crushing wind pipes, biting off ears, kneeing rib cages, breaking knees etc...). Capoeira is not.

A straight legged, standing tall stance is fine for target shooting. It is also fine for sport shooting. But for combat shooting it is almost worthless.

The reason is simple. Your body WILL NOT react this way while under extreme stress. You will be allowing your body, straight posture and all, even bladed, to be knocked ass backwards if you are hit. You are inviting your head and upper torso to be a taller target for incoming fire.

These are some of the reasons why I prefer the stance I teach based on Israeli combat techniques, over other stances and styles.

But, this is simply the very tip of the iceberg. There is so much that can be learned even from just a couple of hours of working with the Israeli techniques.

Thanks for the question!

Ben

Edited August 18, 2009 by Ben

[deerslayer]

Regarding the question of how Krav Maga and the Israeli technique might cross over...

It is a VERY good question. In Krav Maga (the Israeli hand to hand combat), the stance is very similar to what you see while I am shooting (i.e. facing directly, full bodied towards opponent, arms up, but with elbows bent and with forearms and palms facing opponent, almost "welcoming" an attack).

The legs are positioned with "support" leg forward and dominant leg in the rear, on the "balls" of your feet, ready to kick, knees bent and legs spread about shoulder width apart.

This stance allows you to confront any attack from any angle or position while also using the Israeli methods of "efficiency or economy of movement." Meaning, 1 position (your arms for instance) allows you to both strike and block without changing your stance.

It also puts you in a great position to use elbows and knees as weapons.

To answer the question, Krav Maga and Israeli combat firearms stances are very similar in key regards (forward facing, not bladed, efficiency of movement, "forward" and aggressive posture, knees bent, head tucked, center of gravity lower...) and as in combat firearms positioning, Krav Maga brings you to a form of your instinctive reaction and position when under a high stress attack circumstance.

I teach Krav techniques in every training session.

Any operator/warrior needs to be able to transition seamlessly from armed to unarmed combat or vice versa. All it takes is a weapons failure (hello Mr. Murphy and your crappy laws!!!) or a "point zero" attack where you do not have time to draw...

That is why you must learn to FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE. You may as well learn 2 fighting methods that are intertwined on their respective base levels and are VERY aggressive.

Thank you for the question. Please folks, feel free to ask away. The more I answer the more the answers drill into my memory.

Ben

+1

Krav has influenced my shooting stance a lot. Although I don't squat as much as you do in your avatar, and my feet are closer together, some of my IDPA buddies have said my stance resembles some IPSC shooters more than IDPA. I didn't think there was any difference. Anyway, IMHO, a Krav fighting stance with a gun extended is just about the perfect blend between a pure Isosceles and a pure Weaver, which is what my natural stance has evolved into--weak foot slightly in front of the other, upper body leaning slightly forward. I've focused on defensive and competitive pistol shooting so much in the last two years, that when I put up my hands in a Krav fight stance, I am often leading with my left, same as I would with a gun. I shoot left-handed, but fight right-handed (or at least did). Using a Krav stance, it's easier for me to switch back and forth from righty to southpaw. Although I'm not Sugar Ray Deerslayer, I feel that it's an advantage to be able to fight either way. Now, when I hit the bag, I switch back and forth with no problem. I wish I could get back into Krav.

Edited August 18, 2009 by deerslayer

[Kelemvor]

You have capoeira, and you have krav maga. (I am not picking on capoeira, It simply makes a fine comparison).

Ben

Thanks for the reply Ben.

Now, I must clear the air about the Capoeira thing. Just so you guys don't think of me dancing around with a gun in my hand, the Capoeira joke I made was in a completely jocular sense. I definitely see it only as a sport and would never recommend it for any kind of standalone self defense. I do however appreciate that you didn't totally just laugh in my face when you thought that I did. I don't know if I could have been so courteous because that is preeeety funny to me.

I was actually trained in Chinese Kenpo for a half dozen years or so. It is pretty similar to Krav Maga in its straightforward brutality and practicality, but we fight in a stance that is almost perpendicular to our opponent. Also, I'm not sure if we have any biting techniques, but there's just about anything else you can imagine.

[TGO David]

Now, I must clear the air about the Capoeira thing. Just so you guys don't think of me dancing around with a gun in my hand, the Capoeira joke I made was in a completely jocular sense.

It would be appreciated if you wouldn't use serious threads to cut up and show everyone how witty you are. We do have a policy against crapping in people's threads.

Thanks.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I honestly didn't think much about it until I started doing alot of defensive shooting and I'd notice myself naturally falling into fighting stances that I had used for years in martial arts. Watching Ben and others since has really caught my interest in that type of "cross-over incorporation" if you will.

Honestly, one of the problems with modern "gun culture" is the belief that since you have a gun there is no need to know how to fight with your hands.Almost like the gun is a magic talisman that wards off evil. That just sets people up for a big bad surprise.

If the attack comes before you have your gun in hand and enough distance so that the gun is the appropriate answer, then things are very likely to go very badly if you have no hand to hand skills and no appreciation of reaction time and distance intervals. That stuff has to be experienced.It cannot be learned from a book or video.

If the shooting style (foot and hip orientation) someone is teaching is NOT similar to their hand to hand style, then I'd be concerned that what you are learning is maybe only applicable when no one is trying to hurt you back.

Under extreme stress your body will naturally want to do certain things. Best to build your weapon skills around that, not modify your body structure and movements around the weapon. If your skills sets (empty hand , knife, stick, gun) are integrated along the same structures then you will be much more efficient with your training time and much more likely to actually perform it under stress.

I am in no way affiliated with Ben, but I do agree with much of what he is saying.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Cruel Hand Luke]

why would that previous post show up as one big paragragh? Instead of several differnet ones?Like this one I am typing?Is it becasue of the quote?Or is there an internal issue with the forum?

This post did the same thing.....how odd....

[Daniel]

try

to

double

enter.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Tried to go back in. It still would not allow it.Cannot edit the post to make it have paragraph breaks.This looks like a telegram............

AHA!!!!!!!!! Figured it out...damn security settings....

Edited August 18, 2009 by Cruel Hand Luke