Gabe Suarez on caliber choice.

[Smith]

PLEASE don't start a caliber debate!:drama:We all know who thinks what is superior. I just though he made some good points on caliber choice. Particularly on the ineffectiveness of any handgun. Enjoy. Also, if you don't get his newsletter you should. It is a great read. You can sign up for it here http://visitor.constantcontact.com/manage/optin/ea?v=001LBos8BrBhyp86x1Ok20wcg%3D%3D

I get asked what I carry a lot. Recently we have gotten into quite a few discussions about my choice of calibers as well as why. Specially when they hear that it is a 9mm. So here goes --

1). 9mm holds more ammo and more ammo is a definite asset in a gunfight. I had a student that was attacked by three guys and his 1911 barely had enough. Another bad guy and he would have been screwed.

2). With modern ammo there is virtually no difference in performance in the typical CCW loads (9mm, 40, 45).

3). Ammo commonality and magazine commonality are a big issue. If you carry a 50 Auto +P+ and your dainty wife carries a mere 9mm you cannot support each other in the way that would be best.

4). Anyone who believes in the reliability of One Shot Stops with a pistol is an idiot that has never seen any action outside his daydreams.

Look gents, if it makes you feel better to carry a 45, do it. If you think that extra millimeter of size will help, then carry a 45. If you think you'd feel just fine at Mumbai with your 1911/45, then cool. Drive on. Its not my business to convince you otherwise.

Me? I have seen lots of people shot to be able to say this.

ALL HANDGUN CALIBERS ARE UNPREDICTABLE.

I have seen guys get shot with just about everything and nothing will work every time. I know of a guy shot in the chest with a shotgun slug and who not only survived but kept fighting. The ONLY sure way, outside of a clean brain shot, and that is still in question, is to multiply the damage. How do we do that? by lots and lots of holes....hopefully in chest and face.

One of my contacts in South America has a score of 47...many of those with a Glock 17 with Military FMJ. He prevailed by being generous with his trigger and accurate in his shooting. Good enough for me. For me, its a 9mm Glock 17 with a lot of Corbon DPX rounds.

Modern Technique schools created a cult of the 1911/45 and believe that it would work 19 times out of 20. Yet, Fairbairn, a man who was operational in the same general era as Cooper, states that one man he knew emptied his 45 into a thug whom he had to club into unconsciousness with the empty pistol after he kept fighting. So much for legendary stopping power.

That is not to say the 45 is worthless, as it is certainly not. If I was limited by foolish laws to 10 rounds or less, or to FMJ ammo, I might opt for such a pistol, but I think the lack of capacity is a serious limitation.

I investigated an attempted suicide once where a man shot himself in the head with a 1911. He lived and walked out of the ER. What does that prove? Nothing other than the 1911/45 is NOT the death ray Excalibur its cultists would have us all assume.

I was also present in an entry where a drug dealer was killed with one shot from a Sig P226/9mm +P+ 115 gr JHP. The man fell before the Point Man could hit him again. What does that prove? That the 9mm is not the POS, or the "45 set on stun" MT people like to call it.

For perspective I also saw several gang killings with 22 pistols. No lack of stopping power there.

In my educated and experienced opinion, ALL handgun calibers will do about the same things in flesh. I have had ER docs tell me directly that it is impossible to tell what caliber a bullet is in the ER by the damage it does. We have info of the same things happening with just about every caliber out there. Chuck Taylor told me once of a Viet Cong who got his entire shoulder blown off by a 50 BMG that kept charging until he bled out. So again IMHO, the argument of the Power Of The Pistol is simply a silly idea.

We carry them for convenience and not for power. The secret to dropping the adversary is not the caliber, it is the volume and the placement. Period.

So carry the biggest weapon you can control. That does not mean caliber. It means weapon size. And that includes capacity. For some guys with big hands it may mean a Glock 21, or a double stack Para Ordnance. For me, both of those pistols have an unmanageable girth. I cannot shoot them as well as a Glock 17/22. If those who advocate them can, then I support their choice 100%.

I have a friend named Pierre. he is a big man with big hands and can shoot a Desert Eagle as well as I can my Glock 17. It would be foolish for me to force him to carry a Glock 17 and equally so for him to tell me that only his D.E. was suitable for combat.

Choose based on shootability - ignore the caliber...can you manage the weapon's size in your hand, in daily carry? Then choose on capacity. More ammo is more better. You will NOT be dropping one man with one shot. It will be taking more. One man, no big deal. Two men, maybe not a big deal. Three men and your seven shots begin looking bad. Four men and you will be forced to reload. But not with a high capacity weapon. Caliber is the last consideration to me.

Anything in 9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig, 45 ACP, 38 Sp. will work about the same. So CHOOSE WHAT YOU LIKE. As I said, mine is a Glock 17 with three magazines of Corbon DPX (and a couple of happy sticks thrown in).

__________________

Gabe Suarez

One Source Tactical

Suarez International USA

Christian Warrior Ministries

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to

send peace on earth: I came not to send peace,

but a sword.

[tnroadrunner]

I get his newsletters and enjoy everyone of them.

[mousegunner]

Yah, I get Gabe's newsletter. He always writes in an interesting way, and he is usually right. (Or maybe he is always right, and I just don't always agree! )

[TGO David]

2). With modern ammo there is virtually no difference in performance in the typical CCW loads (9mm, 40, 45).

I agree with most of what he said, but I would like to point out the flaw in this statement: I hear this a lot. I read it a lot. I even believe it an extent. However, the flaw in the statement is the assumption that the same advances made with 9mm projectile construction have not been applied to the .40SW or the .45ACP projectiles as well.

The statement strives to compare the "modern 9mm" to the antiquated .45ACP TMJ ball round. Apples and oranges! If you compare the modern 9mm to the modern .40SW or the modern .45ACP, the bigger projectiles are still expanding to bigger sizes than the modern 9mm.

Granted, expansion is not the end-all be-all measurement of a projectile's effectiveness. You also want a healthy balance of penetration and, given the choice between the two, you want penetration more than you want expansion.

I just think that the argument made with this particular talking point is flawed and doesn't really belong in the debate in the presented form.

[Guest 70below]

I agree with most of what he said, but I would like to point out the flaw in this statement: I hear this a lot. I read it a lot. I even believe it an extent. However, the flaw in the statement is the assumption that the same advances made with 9mm projectile construction have not been applied to the .40SW or the .45ACP projectiles as well.

I agree with your argument and his. However he did state "typical" CCW loads. I would agree there are .45acp loads that probably show better in gel than most 9mm loads, but the typical .45 load may not fair better than the typical 9mm load.

Given the focus of much of the story, unpredicability, there is not much way of telling how a round will truly behave against an assailant or in certain conditions until we are placed in that situation. We just try to be as educated and informed going in as possible to prevent our individual extinction.

[dunndw]

I'll stick W/ my .45 with two relaods.

[timcalhoun]

While I do agree with some of what he says, I wouldn't take anything this guy says too seriously. Seems old Gabe was video taped while on workers comp jumping and rolling around in one of his "classes". This is the same guy who has started one of his courses by standing next to a target and having one of his instructors shoot rounds next to his head with an AK to "keep me sharp."

SMPD Officers Charged With Fraud

Clara Sturak

Associate editor

On Friday, March 2, two Santa Monica Police Officers were arrested in connection with conspiracy to defraud the City of Santa Monica through Workers Compensation fraud. Officers Jason Comer and Gabriel Suarez were arrested along with Suarez' wife Cheryl Suarez.

According to a press release issued by the Public Information Office of the Santa Monica Police Department, the three were charged after a "long term and intensive investigation" on the part of the Department's Internal Criminal Unit, the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office, and the California State Department of Insurance.

Comer, 32, a six-year veteran, and Suarez 40, a twelve year veteran, along with Mrs. Suarez, are charged with four criminal counts, explains Deputy District Attorney Craig Omura, who led the DA's portion of the investigation. "Count one is conspiracy to commit workers compensation fraud, count two is workers compensation fraud, count three is money laundering, and count six is grand theft, because the money they obtained was over $400." Counts four and five, both for perjury, apply only to Officer Suarez, in regards to false depositions he gave in March and June of 2000. Details of the case have not yet been released.

The investigation, says Omura, has been going on since October of 2000, when the SMPD became aware of possible criminal activity. "They brought the information to [the District Attorney's office] in November of 2000. At that time we began a three-pronged investigation with the Santa Monica Police and the State Department of Insurance." SMPD did the most of the investigative footwork, according to Omura, consulting with the other two departments as to "what elements [they] needed to prove."

The charges and subsequent arrests were not made public until March 7, with an interdepartmental memo sent by SMPD Chief James T. Butts. Although there has been concern that some City officials were not made aware of the situation until several days following the arrests, Judy Rambeau, Assistant to the City Manager states that the City Manger's office was aware of the investigation from its beginnings. "The City Manager is always alerted when something like this is going on," said Rambeau in an interview on Monday. "That doesn't mean we have all of the details as the investigation proceeds. The police need to keep tight control over who knows what's happening at any given time."

In fact, that's exactly why City officials were not informed. Chief Butts' memo states that "there are other long-term investigations concerning potential fraudulent application for Workers Compensation benefits by other members of the department that continue." SMPD Public Information Officer Captain Gary Gallinot confirmed in a telephone interview with the Mirror that, "it was our intent that the investigations be entirely wrapped up before we went public." But, says Gallinot, the District Attorney's office felt they had enough information to go forward, and "since they are the prosecuting authority, it was up to them."

Once any arrest is made it becomes a matter of public record. However, the SMPD did not issue a statement on the day of the arrests. According to Gallinot, "the reason [the arrests weren't] made public is because we did not want to jeopardize the ongoing investigations. Once we realized it was going to be made public , our strategy had to change, and notifications were made."

Gallinot could not comment on the ongoing investigations, except to say that they are "specific" in nature, and that the DA's office is involved.

"It's important to note," he said, "that this investigation was started by our police department. We are vigorously involved in the discipline and prosecution of misconduct [on the part] of our employees. If you don't look for misconduct or criminal activity, you seldom find it. The fact that we do so shines a positive light on our institutional integrity."

Jason Comer, Gabriel Suarez and Cheryl Suarez are scheduled to be arraigned on Wednesday, March 14. If convicted, Jason Comer and Cheryl Suarez could serve maximum prison sentences of 5 years, 8 months, and Gabriel Suarez could serve a maximum of 7 years, 8 months.

[jaysouth]

Two to the chest and one to the head transcends any internet chatter about caliber, construction, bullet weight or made up statistics.

[mousegunner]

Let me just add here that Gabe's story has been well discussed on other forums, and I think the bulk of the evidence shows that Gabe didn't do much or maybe anything wrong. Read the following for full information....How does Gabe Suarez teach firearms classes? - Northeastshooters.com

[Guest hickok]

Guess I'm not familiar with this guy, but much of the original post makes pretty good sense.

[et45]

Let me just add here that Gabe's story has been well discussed on other forums, and I think the bulk of the evidence shows that Gabe didn't do much or maybe anything wrong. Read the following for full information....How does Gabe Suarez teach firearms classes? - Northeastshooters.com

He did jail time.

[TGO David]

He did jail time.

As part of a plea agreement. I'm not supporting the guy or advocating his innocence, but I do know people who had similar situations occur where they could either go bankrupt fighting the system or just plea out and walk away with at least some of their life and livelihood intact. Like the old saying goes, you can't [always] fight City Hall.

[Guest Mugster]

He did jail time.

Hahaha. Now there's a reliable source.

[E4 No More]

As part of a plea agreement. I'm not supporting the guy or advocating his innocence, but I do know people who had similar situations occur where they could either go bankrupt fighting the system or just plea out and walk away with at least some of their life and livelihood intact. Like the old saying goes, you can't [always] fight City Hall.

+1 David! We have a legal system; not a justice system.

[mousegunner]

Paul and Silas did jail time, too. Let's not be too quick to throw stones at Gabe.

[timcalhoun]

Paul and Silas did jail time, too. Let's not be too quick to throw stones at Gabe.

Hmmmm..........

I don't think Gabe would have been in prison for telling people about Jesus. And I don't think Paul and Silas would have crossed the lines that good ole' Gabe did.

[guyandarifle]

I'm one that has and always will err on the side of overkill. I agree that there are too many variables to speak in absolutes about such things but then that in-and-of-itself I think is damning to the man's argument. For instance, citing this guy kept fighting after being struck with a .44 while that guy dropped like a stone from a .22 is meaningless if we don't know where the bullets impacted. If the former was nonvital and the latter was straight into the left eye that's an incredibly lame comparison.

There is simply no way I'm going to ever accept the idea that identical shots into identical targets are going to wound in identical ways when using modern SD ammo in .22/.380/9mm vs .40/10mm/.45. Sorry, not buying it for a second. Now, there's always the capacity argument along with the controlability argument to go along with asking to what EXTENT do the latter cartridges have over the former. And even that doesn't address the old "The .22 in hand beats the .45 in the drawer every time" issue.

It's all valid and there's pros and cons across the board. What I don't like is how articles such as this one, at least in MHO, whiff when they simply try to imply that all other factors being equal getting hit with a 9mm is no different than a .45/10mm/.357/.44. I'm not buying it.

[Guest 270win]

The guy plead guilty to a misdemeanor instead of fighting felony insurance fraud charges. The misdemeanor conviction, of course, doesn't mess up his ability to own firearms...which would end his ability to teach courses. It looks like quite a mess.

On to caliber...I think each person should shoot the biggest caliber that they shoot the best. If it is a 9mm...then shoot that...if it is a 357 Mag...use that. Also what type and model that fits the hand the best.

[Guest grimel]

I agree with most of what he said, but I would like to point out the flaw in this statement: I hear this a lot. I read it a lot. I even believe it an extent. However, the flaw in the statement is the assumption that the same advances made with 9mm projectile construction have not been applied to the .40SW or the .45ACP projectiles as well.

The statement strives to compare the "modern 9mm" to the antiquated .45ACP TMJ ball round. Apples and oranges! If you compare the modern 9mm to the modern .40SW or the modern .45ACP, the bigger projectiles are still expanding to bigger sizes than the modern 9mm.

Granted, expansion is not the end-all be-all measurement of a projectile's effectiveness. You also want a healthy balance of penetration and, given the choice between the two, you want penetration more than you want expansion.

I just think that the argument made with this particular talking point is flawed and doesn't really belong in the debate in the presented form.

Given the geeks developed a standard and all the modern ammo be it 9mm, 40 S&W, 45acp, 38spl, or any other service caliber are working to meet that standard the end result is all the premium service handgun ammo ends up at the stame depth and size.

Given that even the best service handgun ammo is less than 50% effective at ending a fight NOW, why would I give a tinker's damn about a few hundreths one way or the other? I want as many holes as possible to help make up for the ballistic short comings of a handgun.

[TGO David]

Given the geeks developed a standard and all the modern ammo be it 9mm, 40 S&W, 45acp, 38spl, or any other service caliber are working to meet that standard the end result is all the premium service handgun ammo ends up at the stame depth and size.

Given that even the best service handgun ammo is less than 50% effective at ending a fight NOW, why would I give a tinker's damn about a few hundreths one way or the other? I want as many holes as possible to help make up for the ballistic short comings of a handgun.

I think if you carefully re-read what I said, no where in there did I state that I want to sacrifice capacity for a slightly larger bore diameter. No where. It's pretty common knowledge that I carry either a Glock 19 or an M&P automatic in either 9mm or .40SW depending on what mood strikes me. None of them have less than a 15rd mag capacity and at no time do I carry less than two magazines and often a backup gun.

I've got capacity covered.

[Smith]

I'm really not so big on caliber as I am on capacity. Sure a .45 may make a bigger hole but if I miss once then I only have 6 or 7 left. With a 9, 40, 357 SIG I have at least 11 or 12 more attempts to get it right. Knowing that even the best accuracy of LE's is 20% I'm gonna safely say I'd probably be there or below, I need those extra try's.

[timcalhoun]

I'm really not so big on caliber as I am on capacity. Sure a .45 may make a bigger hole but if I miss once then I only have 6 or 7 left. With a 9, 40, 357 SIG I have at least 11 or 12 more attempts to get it right. Knowing that even the best accuracy of LE's is 20% I'm gonna safely say I'd probably be there or below, I need those extra try's.

There are tons of 14+1 and 15+1 45s out there.

[Smith]

There are tons of 14+1 and 15+1 45s out there.

Tons? a bit of an overstatement. Getting you hand around a single stack is an issue for a lot of folks. A double stack is near impossible. Not to mention carrying the thing.

[nightrunner]

There are tons of 14+1 and 15+1 45s out there.

where are these 14+1 and 15+1 .45s at? ony ones i know of are the double stack paras and the FNP-45

and i love a hi-capacity .45 just as much as the next man, i have big hands

[TGO David]

XD-45, Glock 21, M&P 45...