Obama Care - An Atrocity!

[Guest Ralph G. Briscoe]

"Give back a little" of what? Oh, their income. What belonged to them to start with...

Hey, anyone remember the economic conditions prevailing when Reagan took office? Stag-flation, high unemployment and so forth? So the result of Reagans' "welfare for the rich" was a robust economy, very low unemployment, and higher standards of living for all.... Recovery from the Jimmuh Carter era of "tax the rich to feed the poor".

Oh, sorry, not supposed to remind anyone of Carter, his policies and the economic results, lest the O be compared to same... my bad. Does that make me a racist?

Naturally, pharmaceuticals and insurance companies are the villains as well. That an overwhelming majority of medical advances are made by US pharmaceuticals (who have a financial interest in creating new solutions) rather than, say, french companies who can't sell new products for enough to recoup their investment - much less that evil 'profit' - has no bearing.

Ralph, your numbers on foreclosures due to illness... I find two primary sources for them. An outfit in Canada that sells (wait for it) illness insurance, and "Physicians for a National Health Program". Would you have any better, more credible sources? Like maybe someone who actually works in the mortgage industry?

I'm pretty sure that the majority of foreclosures are due to 1)loss of work 2)walking away from too much debt. At any rate, I've seen this argument debunked many months ago.

Actually, my previous statement stands. You want something that belongs to someone else provided to you through the good offices of the government. You can't really pretty it up enough to disguise it as anything more than that.

Nice tantrum. You just keep on taking it in the backside from your pals in the insurance and pharma industries while blaming "liberals" for all your problems. Ignorance is bliss they say.

[Guest Phantom6]

My thought for the day as it relates to this current administration's ideas not only on healthcare reform but it's elevation of 37 "Czars" to meddle in all manner of private affairs as well- "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." -- Milton Friedman (1912-2006) Nobel Prize-winning economist

[Guest Ralph G. Briscoe]

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By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: July 30, 2009

At a recent town hall meeting, a man stood up and told Representative Bob Inglis to “keep your government hands off my Medicare.” The congressman, a Republican from South Carolina, tried to explain that Medicare is already a government program — but the voter, Mr. Inglis said, “wasn’t having any of it.”

»

It’s a funny story — but it illustrates the extent to which health reform must climb a wall of misinformation. It’s not just that many Americans don’t understand what President Obama is proposing; many people don’t understand the way American health care works right now. They don’t understand, in particular, that getting the government involved in health care wouldn’t be a radical step: the government is already deeply involved, even in private insurance.

And that government involvement is the only reason our system works at all.

The key thing you need to know about health care is that it depends crucially on insurance. You don’t know when or whether you’ll need treatment — but if you do, treatment can be extremely expensive, well beyond what most people can pay out of pocket. Triple coronary bypasses, not routine doctor’s visits, are where the real money is, so insurance is essential.

Yet private markets for health insurance, left to their own devices, work very badly: insurers deny as many claims as possible, and they also try to avoid covering people who are likely to need care. Horror stories are legion: the insurance company that refused to pay for urgently needed cancer surgery because of questions about the patient’s acne treatment; the healthy young woman denied coverage because she briefly saw a psychologist after breaking up with her boyfriend.

And in their efforts to avoid “medical losses,” the industry term for paying medical bills, insurers spend much of the money taken in through premiums not on medical treatment, but on “underwriting” — screening out people likely to make insurance claims. In the individual insurance market, where people buy insurance directly rather than getting it through their employers, so much money goes into underwriting and other expenses that only around 70 cents of each premium dollar actually goes to care.

Still, most Americans do have health insurance, and are reasonably satisfied with it. How is that possible, when insurance markets work so badly? The answer is government intervention.

Most obviously, the government directly provides insurance via Medicare and other programs. Before Medicare was established, more than 40 percent of elderly Americans lacked any kind of health insurance. Today, Medicare — which is, by the way, one of those “single payer” systems conservatives love to demonize — covers everyone 65 and older. And surveys show that Medicare recipients are much more satisfied with their coverage than Americans with private insurance.

Still, most Americans under 65 do have some form of private insurance. The vast majority, however, don’t buy it directly: they get it through their employers. There’s a big tax advantage to doing it that way, since employer contributions to health care aren’t considered taxable income. But to get that tax advantage employers have to follow a number of rules; roughly speaking, they can’t discriminate based on pre-existing medical conditions or restrict benefits to highly paid employees.

And it’s thanks to these rules that employment-based insurance more or less works, at least in the sense that horror stories are a lot less common than they are in the individual insurance market.

So here’s the bottom line: if you currently have decent health insurance, thank the government. It’s true that if you’re young and healthy, with nothing in your medical history that could possibly have raised red flags with corporate accountants, you might have been able to get insurance without government intervention. But time and chance happen to us all, and the only reason you have a reasonable prospect of still having insurance coverage when you need it is the large role the government already plays.

Which brings us to the current debate over reform.

Right-wing opponents of reform would have you believe that President Obama is a wild-eyed socialist, attacking the free market. But unregulated markets don’t work for health care — never have, never will. To the extent we have a working health care system at all right now it’s only because the government covers the elderly, while a combination of regulation and tax subsidies makes it possible for many, but not all, nonelderly Americans to get decent private coverage.

Now Mr. Obama basically proposes using additional regulation and subsidies to make decent insurance available to all of us. That’s not radical; it’s as American as, well, Medicare.

[Guest Ralph G. Briscoe]

Health Care Realities

By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: July 30, 2009

At a recent town hall meeting, a man stood up and told Representative Bob Inglis to “keep your government hands off my Medicare.†The congressman, a Republican from South Carolina, tried to explain that Medicare is already a government program — but the voter, Mr. Inglis said, “wasn’t having any of it.â€

»

It’s a funny story — but it illustrates the extent to which health reform must climb a wall of misinformation. It’s not just that many Americans don’t understand what President Obama is proposing; many people don’t understand the way American health care works right now. They don’t understand, in particular, that getting the government involved in health care wouldn’t be a radical step: the government is already deeply involved, even in private insurance.

And that government involvement is the only reason our system works at all.

The key thing you need to know about health care is that it depends crucially on insurance. You don’t know when or whether you’ll need treatment — but if you do, treatment can be extremely expensive, well beyond what most people can pay out of pocket. Triple coronary bypasses, not routine doctor’s visits, are where the real money is, so insurance is essential.

Yet private markets for health insurance, left to their own devices, work very badly: insurers deny as many claims as possible, and they also try to avoid covering people who are likely to need care. Horror stories are legion: the insurance company that refused to pay for urgently needed cancer surgery because of questions about the patient’s acne treatment; the healthy young woman denied coverage because she briefly saw a psychologist after breaking up with her boyfriend.

And in their efforts to avoid “medical losses,†the industry term for paying medical bills, insurers spend much of the money taken in through premiums not on medical treatment, but on “underwriting†— screening out people likely to make insurance claims. In the individual insurance market, where people buy insurance directly rather than getting it through their employers, so much money goes into underwriting and other expenses that only around 70 cents of each premium dollar actually goes to care.

Still, most Americans do have health insurance, and are reasonably satisfied with it. How is that possible, when insurance markets work so badly? The answer is government intervention.

Most obviously, the government directly provides insurance via Medicare and other programs. Before Medicare was established, more than 40 percent of elderly Americans lacked any kind of health insurance. Today, Medicare — which is, by the way, one of those “single payer†systems conservatives love to demonize — covers everyone 65 and older. And surveys show that Medicare recipients are much more satisfied with their coverage than Americans with private insurance.

Still, most Americans under 65 do have some form of private insurance. The vast majority, however, don’t buy it directly: they get it through their employers. There’s a big tax advantage to doing it that way, since employer contributions to health care aren’t considered taxable income. But to get that tax advantage employers have to follow a number of rules; roughly speaking, they can’t discriminate based on pre-existing medical conditions or restrict benefits to highly paid employees.

And it’s thanks to these rules that employment-based insurance more or less works, at least in the sense that horror stories are a lot less common than they are in the individual insurance market.

So here’s the bottom line: if you currently have decent health insurance, thank the government. It’s true that if you’re young and healthy, with nothing in your medical history that could possibly have raised red flags with corporate accountants, you might have been able to get insurance without government intervention. But time and chance happen to us all, and the only reason you have a reasonable prospect of still having insurance coverage when you need it is the large role the government already plays.

Which brings us to the current debate over reform.

Right-wing opponents of reform would have you believe that President Obama is a wild-eyed socialist, attacking the free market. But unregulated markets don’t work for health care — never have, never will. To the extent we have a working health care system at all right now it’s only because the government covers the elderly, while a combination of regulation and tax subsidies makes it possible for many, but not all, nonelderly Americans to get decent private coverage.

Now Mr. Obama basically proposes using additional regulation and subsidies to make decent insurance available to all of us. That’s not radical; it’s as American as, well, Medicare.

[Guest 2HOW]

here is a good overview of the bill

http://www.liberty.edu/media/9980/attachments/healthcare_overview_obama_072909.pdf

[Guest SUNTZU]

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By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: July 30, 2009

At a recent town hall meeting, a man stood up and told Representative Bob Inglis to “keep your government hands off my Medicare.” The congressman, a Republican from South Carolina, tried to explain that Medicare is already a government program — but the voter, Mr. Inglis said, “wasn’t having any of it.”

Health Care Realities

By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: July 30, 2009

At a recent town hall meeting, a man stood up and told Representative Bob Inglis to “keep your government hands off my Medicare.” The congressman, a Republican from South Carolina, tried to explain that Medicare is already a government program — but the voter, Mr. Inglis said, “wasn’t having any of it.”

»

Ralph, quoting the same story by the same journalist twice doesn't add any credibility to your "keep taking it up the backside" ...more government now! screeching. Links to your "story" please...The New York Times? That's where I found the story.

[Guest Phantom6]

Well, let's just take a look at what Mr. Briscoe is supporting:

Pg 22 of the HC Bill mandates the Government will audit books of all employers that self insure.

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - a Government committee (good luck with that!) will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive.

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE WILL BE RATIONED!

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you.

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Pg 58 HC Bill - Government will have real-time access to individual's finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your bank accts for election funds transfer.

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations (read: ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government will create an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control.

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Government mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example - Translation for illegal aliens.

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Government will use groups, i.e. ACORN & Americorps, to sign up individuals for Government HC plan.

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members - your Health care WILL be rationed.

PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue Government on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Government Monopoly.

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ AMA - The Government will tell YOU what you can earn.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (the GOVERNMENT) will have access to ALL Americans' finances and personal records.

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that.

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors - doesn't matter what specialty - will all be paid the same.

PG 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgment, etc. Literally, value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131 Government mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells Doctors what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion - Government will mandate hospitals cannot expand.

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Government will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people!

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consultations. Think Senior Citizens end of life prodding.

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in how to die.

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends.

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government to end a life!

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION. 1 monthly payment to a community-based organization. (You mean like ACORN?)

There's plenty more. See for yourself at the folowing link as H.R. 3200 can be found in its entirety, all 1017 pages of it! (Enough to make you gag )

This bill would drive unemployment, taxes, and the deficit to the moon. It would turn hospitals into the DMV, dramatically reduce our access to healthcare, let bureaucratic a$$hats decide when it's time for us to die, and guarantee that no one in his right mind goes to medical school. As for the damage this would do to individual liberty - let's just say that any doubts about these liberals leading us down a path to socialism have been put to rest with this mess.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Phantom6

[Mark@Sea]

TAX FOUNDATION: Tax Burden of Top 1% Now Exceeds That of Bottom 95%. “Newly released data from the IRS clearly debunks the conventional Beltway rhetoric that the ‘rich’ are not paying their fair share of taxes. Indeed, the IRS data shows that in 2007—the most recent data available—the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 40.4 percent of the total income taxes collected by the federal government. This is the highest percentage in modern history. By contrast, the top 1 percent paid 24.8 percent of the income tax burden in 1987, the year following the 1986 tax reform act.”

Say, Ralph, what does that do for your "Welfare for the Rich" idea?

Nice tantrum? A response that actually references real world results which are inconvenient to your argument is a tantrum. Well, doubtless flinging poo is easier than refuting facts. Say, when you come up with something more original than Obamas' latest talking points and 'the blame game', would love to hear it.

From where I (and an overwhelming majority of citizens) stand, the health care bill is a trainwreck. Frankly, Congress seems to think so, too - reference the defeated amendment to require Congress and their families to abide by the requirements of the bill for their own healthcare.

*come to think of it, 'the blame game' pretty much IS Obamas' argument. Biggest deficit in history? Blame Bush. Economy in the tank? Wasn't me! Healthcare problems? Its' those evil insurance companies. Energy too high? Those greedy people who insist on light and heat in their homes are at fault. Jeez, its' like listening to a broken record.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Mark@Sea

[Guest SUNTZU]

Keep the faith, Ralph. Maybe you can have socialized medicine by the middle of Oktober when Congress reconvenes.

[Oh Shoot]

...

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consultations. Think Senior Citizens end of life prodding.

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in how to die.

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends.

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government to end a life!

Well, hey, would help alleviate the overpopulation and food supply problems, eh?

Soylent Green is people!!

- OS

[Guest redbarron06]

Ralph,

I tell you what, if you think that gooberment health care is so great why dont you go and sit at the VA in Nahsville for while and talk to those that have actually earned the government health care they are getting. Long lines to say the least. Last time I was there I waited 2 and a half hours to see the doctor, and I had an appointment. 2 months later I still have not recieved my script. Custom insoles that I am only allowed to get 1 per year and have been wearing the ones I have for 20 months now.

Then you dont feel good so you go into Uncle Sams sick call. After waiting 6 hours to see sombody that is not even a doctor and you tell them you have alergies and need some thing for it they whip out the troubleshooting guide for the human body. No I aint kidding here is how it goes.

1. Did patient suffer head trauma yes go to page 12 no go to page 16.

I really wish I was making it up but I aint. Both of these are examples of govt health care that I have been through.

I dont know why your wife cant get insurance, it is none of my buisness, but I can assure you under this bill as soon as she runs out of "health care credit" the govt will stop her care and what are you going to do then? At least now you have options now. In 10 years every doctor that dont do plastic surgery (and half of them) will work for the same folks that screwed up the housing industry, immagration, banking industry, GM, Chrysler, Social Security, Medicare, Medicade, and cash for clunkers. And it will be your fault for supporting this communist take over of the very industry that we all trust there lives to. Do you want a group of folks that can not even do a simple thing like balance a checkbook, tell you when you are going to have to put your own mother down because she is no longer a good investment for health care funds? You are about to let a government that cant press charges against 3 thugs that are on video tape with 300 witnesses of voter immtimidation. They are the ones that will tell you just what proceedures can or can not be done. Yea I want those guys trusted with my life and the lives of my loved ones, NOT

[dunndw]

I think those at the top of the economic ladder who have enjoyed "welfare for the rich" since Reagan should give back a little to help the less fortunate.

Theres the flaw right there. They SHOULDN'T BE FORCED TO GIVE ANYTHING. If you don't like US healthcare Canada is only about 28 hours away.

Socialism only works as long as you have other peoples money. When the "rich" cut and run who is going to pay the bills then???

[Guest Ralph G. Briscoe]

Well, let's just take a look at what Mr. Briscoe is supporting:

Pg 22 of the HC Bill mandates the Government will audit books of all employers that self insure.

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - a Government committee (good luck with that!) will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive.

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE WILL BE RATIONED!

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you.

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Pg 58 HC Bill - Government will have real-time access to individual's finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your bank accts for election funds transfer.

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations (read: ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government will create an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control.

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Government mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example - Translation for illegal aliens.

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Government will use groups, i.e. ACORN & Americorps, to sign up individuals for Government HC plan.

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members - your Health care WILL be rationed.

PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue Government on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Government Monopoly.

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ AMA - The Government will tell YOU what you can earn.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (the GOVERNMENT) will have access to ALL Americans' finances and personal records.

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that.

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors - doesn't matter what specialty - will all be paid the same.

PG 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgment, etc. Literally, value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131 Government mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells Doctors what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion - Government will mandate hospitals cannot expand.

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Government will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people!

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consultations. Think Senior Citizens end of life prodding.

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in how to die.

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends.

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government to end a life!

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION. 1 monthly payment to a community-based organization. (You mean like ACORN?)

There's plenty more. See for yourself at the folowing link as H.R. 3200 can be found in its entirety, all 1017 pages of it! (Enough to make you gag )

This bill would drive unemployment, taxes, and the deficit to the moon. It would turn hospitals into the DMV, dramatically reduce our access to healthcare, let bureaucratic a$$hats decide when it's time for us to die, and guarantee that no one in his right mind goes to medical school. As for the damage this would do to individual liberty - let's just say that any doubts about these liberals leading us down a path to socialism have been put to rest with this mess.

Where did you get your "interpretation" of the bill? Did you actually read it yourself? I find it curious that if it was going to wreak havoc on the medical profession the American Medical Association would be supporting it. (see below)

Thank God most Americans are most enlightened and progressive than Tennessee Gun Owners.

We'll get a healthcare bill....maybe not this one, but we'll get one and it will improve things.

The world will not come to an end. You still won't like it of course...paranoia is too much fun I guess.

AMA Supports H.R. 3200, "America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009"

House bill expands access to high quality, affordable health care for Americans

WASHINGTON, DC — Today, the American Medical Association sent a letter to House leaders supporting H.R. 3200, "America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009."

"This legislation includes a broad range of provisions that are key to effective, comprehensive health system reform," said J. James Rohack, MD, AMA president. "We urge the House committees of jurisdiction to pass the bill for consideration by the full House." H.R. 3200 includes provisions key to effective, comprehensive health reform, including:

Coverage to all Americans through health insurance market reforms

A choice of plans through a health insurance exchange

An end to coverage denials based on pre-existing conditions

Fundamental Medicare reform, including repeal of the flawed sustainable growth rate (SGR) formula

Additional funding for primary care services, without reductions on specialty care

Individual responsibility for health insurance, including premium assistance to those who need it

Prevention and wellness initiatives to help keep Americans healthy

Initiatives to address physician workforce concerns

"The status quo is unacceptable," Dr. Rohack said. "We support passage of H.R. 3200, and we look forward to additional constructive dialogue as the long process of passing a health reform bill continues. This is an important step, but one of many steps in the process. The AMA is actively engaged with Congress and the administration to achieve health reform that best meets the needs of patients and physicians. We are committed to passing health reform this year consistent withprinciples of pluralism, freedom of choice, freedom of practice, and universal access for patients."

###

[Guest Ralph G. Briscoe]

TAX FOUNDATION: Tax Burden of Top 1% Now Exceeds That of Bottom 95%. “Newly released data from the IRS clearly debunks the conventional Beltway rhetoric that the ‘rich’ are not paying their fair share of taxes. Indeed, the IRS data shows that in 2007—the most recent data available—the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 40.4 percent of the total income taxes collected by the federal government. This is the highest percentage in modern history. By contrast, the top 1 percent paid 24.8 percent of the income tax burden in 1987, the year following the 1986 tax reform act.â€

Say, Ralph, what does that do for your "Welfare for the Rich" idea?

Nice tantrum? A response that actually references real world results which are inconvenient to your argument is a tantrum. Well, doubtless flinging poo is easier than refuting facts. Say, when you come up with something more original than Obamas' latest talking points and 'the blame game', would love to hear it.

From where I (and an overwhelming majority of citizens) stand, the health care bill is a trainwreck. Frankly, Congress seems to think so, too - reference the defeated amendment to require Congress and their families to abide by the requirements of the bill for their own healthcare.

*come to think of it, 'the blame game' pretty much IS Obamas' argument. Biggest deficit in history? Blame Bush. Economy in the tank? Wasn't me! Healthcare problems? Its' those evil insurance companies. Energy too high? Those greedy people who insist on light and heat in their homes are at fault. Jeez, its' like listening to a broken record.

Challenge--Try and figure out why your post ("top 1 percent pays.....) actually reinforces my case.

[Guest SUNTZU]

American Medical Association Walks Fine Line of Support for Public Plan

By Ceci Connolly

The American Medical Association wants it to be known: they support a government-sponsored health insurance plan, except when they oppose one.

In testimony to the Senate Finance Committee last month, the physician lobby went on at length detailing its discomfort with a so-called public plan, predicting it would "restrict patient choice," force private insurers out of the market and "would likely lead to an explosion of costs that would need to be absorbed by taxpayers."

The AMA made clear it opposes any public plan modeled after the popular Medicare program for the elderly and disabled, and it would fight any effort to require doctors to participate in a government-sponsored insurance option.

The document received little attention at the time, but now that President Obama has scheduled a speech to the group on Monday, its positions are getting a fresh look, specifically in today's New York Times. It seems the AMA didn't like the article, headlined: "Doctors' Group Opposes Public Insurance Plan."

AMA President Nancy Nielsen issued the following statement: “Today's New York Times story creates a false impression about the AMA's position on a public plan option in health care reform legislation. The AMA opposes any public plan that forces physicians to participate, expands the fiscally-challenged Medicare program or pays Medicare rates, but the AMA is willing to consider other variations of a public plan that are currently under discussion in Congress. This includes a federally chartered co-op health plan or a level playing field option for all plans."

In an interview this evening, Nielsen said that perhaps the confusion stemmed from a faulty headline.

"When people say public plan there's all kinds of variations," she said. "We're looking forward to hearing from President Obama about his vision" for a public plan.

[Guest Ralph G. Briscoe]

Ralph,

I tell you what, if you think that gooberment health care is so great why dont you go and sit at the VA in Nahsville for while and talk to those that have actually earned the government health care they are getting. Long lines to say the least. Last time I was there I waited 2 and a half hours to see the doctor, and I had an appointment. 2 months later I still have not recieved my script. Custom insoles that I am only allowed to get 1 per year and have been wearing the ones I have for 20 months now.

Then you dont feel good so you go into Uncle Sams sick call. After waiting 6 hours to see sombody that is not even a doctor and you tell them you have alergies and need some thing for it they whip out the troubleshooting guide for the human body. No I aint kidding here is how it goes.

1. Did patient suffer head trauma yes go to page 12 no go to page 16.

I really wish I was making it up but I aint. Both of these are examples of govt health care that I have been through.

I dont know why your wife cant get insurance, it is none of my buisness, but I can assure you under this bill as soon as she runs out of "health care credit" the govt will stop her care and what are you going to do then? At least now you have options now. In 10 years every doctor that dont do plastic surgery (and half of them) will work for the same folks that screwed up the housing industry, immagration, banking industry, GM, Chrysler, Social Security, Medicare, Medicade, and cash for clunkers. And it will be your fault for supporting this communist take over of the very industry that we all trust there lives to. Do you want a group of folks that can not even do a simple thing like balance a checkbook, tell you when you are going to have to put your own mother down because she is no longer a good investment for health care funds? You are about to let a government that cant press charges against 3 thugs that are on video tape with 300 witnesses of voter immtimidation. They are the ones that will tell you just what proceedures can or can not be done. Yea I want those guys trusted with my life and the lives of my loved ones, NOT

After 8 years of Bush I'm not surprised. You should be relieved to have intelligent, ethical, competent people at the top of your government for a change...there is at last real hope that conditions at VA hospitals will improve. If it doesn't I'll be as pissed off as you deserve to be.

Thanks for your service.

[Guest page90lx]

Thank God most Americans are most enlightened and progressive than Tennessee Gun Owners.

We'll get a healthcare bill

]After 8 years of Bush I'm not surprised. You should be relieved to have intelligent, ethical, competent people at the top of your government for a change...there is at last real hope that conditions at VA hospitals will improve. If it doesn't I'll be as pissed off as you deserve to be.

Nice words ralph

Please dont be calling names when you know none of us except from this site , and yes they may be intelligent , morals maybe , trustworthy to do anything but what benefits them (politicians) I doubt it. if you believe obama is change well you will have to take of the blindfold sometime. I didnt vote for him but was willing to give him a chance I am not seeing anything but more waste and abuse and it will probably get worse before and if it gets better. have a nice day:)

[bubbiesdad]

Ralph G. Briscoe said,

You should be relieved to have intelligent, ethical, competent people at the top of your government for a change

[Guest Phantom6]

Where did you get your "interpretation" of the bill? Did you actually read it yourself? I find it curious that if it was going to wreak havoc on the medical profession the American Medical Association would be supporting it. (see below)

Thank God most Americans are most enlightened and progressive than Tennessee Gun Owners.

We'll get a healthcare bill....maybe not this one, but we'll get one and it will improve things.

The world will not come to an end. You still won't like it of course...paranoia is too much fun I guess.

AMA Supports H.R. 3200, "America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009"

House bill expands access to high quality, affordable health care for Americans

WASHINGTON, DC — Today, the American Medical Association sent a letter to House leaders supporting H.R. 3200, "America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009."

"This legislation includes a broad range of provisions that are key to effective, comprehensive health system reform," said J. James Rohack, MD, AMA president. "We urge the House committees of jurisdiction to pass the bill for consideration by the full House." H.R. 3200 includes provisions key to effective, comprehensive health reform, including:

Coverage to all Americans through health insurance market reforms

A choice of plans through a health insurance exchange

An end to coverage denials based on pre-existing conditions

Fundamental Medicare reform, including repeal of the flawed sustainable growth rate (SGR) formula

Additional funding for primary care services, without reductions on specialty care

Individual responsibility for health insurance, including premium assistance to those who need it

Prevention and wellness initiatives to help keep Americans healthy

Initiatives to address physician workforce concerns

"The status quo is unacceptable," Dr. Rohack said. "We support passage of H.R. 3200, and we look forward to additional constructive dialogue as the long process of passing a health reform bill continues. This is an important step, but one of many steps in the process. The AMA is actively engaged with Congress and the administration to achieve health reform that best meets the needs of patients and physicians. We are committed to passing health reform this year consistent withprinciples of pluralism, freedom of choice, freedom of practice, and universal access for patients."

###

Of course I read it myself. That's why I placed the link in the post so that folks could check it out for themselves. As far as the AMA is concerned, that organization is now bleeding doctors almost as quickly as the AARP is bleeding it's membership over this mess.

[Guest oldfella]

Bill 3200 does exist... here another "quotation":

WORLD Magazine | D.C. prescription | The Editors | Aug 15, 09

[Guest redbarron06]

After 8 years of Bush I'm not surprised. You should be relieved to have intelligent, ethical, competent people at the top of your government for a change...there is at last real hope that conditions at VA hospitals will improve. If it doesn't I'll be as pissed off as you deserve to be.

Thanks for your service.

I guess you are not that familure with the VA health care system are you. First half of the almost doctors are volunteering to get some time in before they leave and get a real job. The rest are retired and trying to get a pension from Uncle Sugar because they did not spend thier own money wisley. Sure there are a few here and there that actually give a **** but they are few and far between. My dad waited 5 months just to get some paper work signed. And by the way the allergy thing happened under Clinton in 1993. As bad as the VA sounds belive it or not this is the best it has ever been and they are still having problems spreading HIV because they arent cleaning inspection tools. As far as having intelligent, ethical, cometent, people at the top of the government:poop: I challenge you, to name one. As a matter of fact, the intelligent, ethical, cometent, person that is at the top of the government is about to give the highest freaking medal that can be given to a civilan to a guy that killed somebody and then ran away and tried to blame it on sombody else. Congress, POTUS, VPOTUS all only looking after one thing, themsleves. If this plan is so good how come none of them will get on it? Guess who is in charge of the VA at this time? The same jerk that stole a symbol of pride from a few select group of individuals that went out and earned it (75th Ranger Regiment) and just gave it to the rest of the Army that did not want it, the black beret. Name one thing that the govt has taken control of that has suceeded other than the military? Then ask your self do you want them telling your doctor what he can and can not do to save your life based on your age and what the odds are that you are going to continue contributing to the tax pool.

[Steelharp]

Go easy on Ralph, guys. He's just a bass player; he's loster than Janet March...

[Guest SUNTZU]

Maybe he should play in a traveling band... Ralph, please stick around, hopefully the scales will drop from your eyes. RESIST THE HYPNOBAMA!

Edited August 1, 2009 by SUNTZU

[Steelharp]

He did... one y'all would know well...

[Guest SUNTZU]

The Dixie Chicks?