Anyone Feel Sorry For This Guy?

[Marswolf]

I'm not a member of any organized religion. I'm a Methodist.

[Smith]

Actually he's getting the chair, by his request.

Yea, I got that. The criminal has to request justice these days. Nice!

[Smith]

Yeah, but why should we care what France does??

Oh, you mean al Qaeda et al? Do "our enemies" have a trial by jury system? Do they have a standard of guilt beyond the shadow of a doubt? Do they have elaborate sentencing guidelines? Do they have extended appeals processes? No, they do not. So there is no similarity.

I don't know "where we are going as a race." I dont understand what that means. If we value human life truly then we realize the enormity of murder and punish accordingly.

As for playing the race card on this one, it doesn't fly.

Then that would include all self-defense as well. Killing is killing regardless of circumstance. I have no problem with someone who says his religion forbids killing and therefore he will not defend himself. But I find it odd exceedingly to see this attitude in a gun forum by someone who trains people to do exactly that. It seems somehow inconsistent.

I love how your mind works Rabbi! All i got to do these days is wait for your response and +1 all day long.

Funny how logic and consistency of truth get lost in emotion for some.

[molonlabetn]

This would still be state-sanctioned, just not state-operated. There would have to be a legal mechanism in place to operate such a system, and that mechanism would be designed and passed by a legislative body, thus effectively having a state sanction. This system would then not pass my muster, even though it is an interesting and creative approach.

Not actually...

If the state isn't the party making the decision whether to execute or enforce lifelong confinement, they aren't sanctioning execution (unless using a loose definition of 'sanction' as 'permission')... they merely pass that decision/responsibility on to the people, on an individual basis.

[molonlabetn]

So what? So everything. We are behaving in a fashion similar to our enemies. Not exactly the company I want to keep. Second, the state should not be in the business of taking life. It serves no purpose but vengance.

Until humanity gets over this casual attitude about taking life, we wont be going anywhere as a race. If we are to value human life, we can't take away, especially in the capricious manner our system does it. (Black, you die, white you live. Rich you live, poor you die.)

Finally, the church I grew up in (Catholic) teaches no killing. Period. No abortions, no murders, no capital punishment. Do these things and you are going down. If I am to follow the teachings of Jesus as my church interprets them, I must oppose capital punishment.

What about lethal self-defense in public with a firearm? Is that not state-sanctioned if one has a 'carry-permit'? Or, lethal-force used by police?

[gunsablazin]

Too bad they don't cook more of them and a whole lot sooner!

Robin

[Guest Len]

Killing in self-defense can be justified, and contrary to Rabbi's assertions, self-defense is allowed by the Catholic faith. I can direct him to some priests who will gladly explain the ins and outs. (Killing is NOT killing regardless of circumstance -circumstance is everything.)

I can not support the execution of individuals for crimes, no matter how heinous.

You want to prevent crime? Lock 'em up and throw away the key. Its cheaper than executing someone anyway, the way our system works today.

[TGO David]

So... Who gets to throw the switch, and is someone bringing marshmallows?

[The Rabbi]

Killing in self-defense can be justified, and contrary to Rabbi's assertions, self-defense is allowed by the Catholic faith. I can direct him to some priests who will gladly explain the ins and outs. (Killing is NOT killing regardless of circumstance -circumstance is everything.)

I can not support the execution of individuals for crimes, no matter how heinous.

You want to prevent crime? Lock 'em up and throw away the key. Its cheaper than executing someone anyway, the way our system works today.

So your earlier assertion that the Catholic Church teaches "no killing. Period." Was off the mark. Obviously some killing is OK. (And I won't even begin on Church history here).

It is immaterial to me what the Church holds on capital punishment. Again, if someone says "my religion forbids capital punishment and therefore I am opposed" I can buy that.

But don't dress up a religious preference as some kind of public policy/morality play.

[Mike.357]

the Catholic church does allow capital punishment if there is not an alternative.

I want to see documentation of this.

rabbi says

So your earlier assertion that the Catholic Church teaches "no killing. Period." Was off the mark. Obviously some killing is OK.

I think you and everyone else on here knows the difference between "killing" and "killing in self defense"

Putting a convict to death is killing, plain and simple. Justify it all you want, but it is not the same as with self defense. Just as dead but not the same.

[molonlabetn]

One could argue that the purpose of self-defense is not to ultimately cause loss-of-life, but to prevent it using extreme (necessary) methods...

Execution is performed with the sole intent of removing a soul from the mortal plane... hopefully after all steps of due process have been fairly taken.

Looking at it from another angle, however... execution is merely a belated reaction which the victim(s) of the accused were incapable of performing at the time of their own demise. The end result is the same as lethal self-defense, only, the direct victims of the crime are no longer present to benefit from it, and the perpetrator has had time to ponder and be faced with his/her actions in the full view of the public.

[The Rabbi]

rabbi says

I think you and everyone else on here knows the difference between "killing" and "killing in self defense"

Putting a convict to death is killing, plain and simple. Justify it all you want, but it is not the same as with self defense. Just as dead but not the same.

Obviously I'm not Catholic and not familiar with their doctrines. So, no, I don't know the difference between "killing" and "killing in self defense" as Len expressed it. Many groups make no such distinction.

I know the difference between "murder" and "killing in self defense" and "execution." Murder is a crime committed with no reason. Killing in self defense occurs in the course of mitigating a threat. Execution is a punishment imposed by the state after a lengthy judicial process determining guilt or innocence.

[bteague2]

I want to see documentation of this.

rabbi says

I think you and everyone else on here knows the difference between "killing" and "killing in self defense"

Putting a convict to death is killing, plain and simple. Justify it all you want, but it is not the same as with self defense. Just as dead but not the same.

The catechism is an interesting thing. Mine is at home but I found it online easily:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68

[Mike.357]

bt, I did not mean to doubt you but I am moderately suprised by your findings. And I suppose that nothing the Catholic church does really suprises me. I do find their justification odd.

rabbi says

Obviously I'm not Catholic and not familiar with their doctrines. So, no, I don't know the difference between "killing" and "killing in self defense"

You are not Catholic??? I'd of never guessed .

But in spite of this you know darn well what Len referred to and what I meant. You cannot act so smart all of the time then want to play dumb when it is convenient, c'mon.

[The Rabbi]

btw, is your avatar Cleavon Little playing in Blazing Saddles?

Great movie.

[bteague2]

It's ok Mike rereading my reply it comes off kind of like a jerk. It really is interesting the things that are in the catechism. (The only reason I knew where to look was because of Catholic school )

[Mike.357]

bt, I took no offense at what you said. I was raised catholic and did not remember ( and still don't) them saying the death penalty has its place. I guess the nun's weren't hitting me hard enough when they taught that, lol

Rabbi, yes Cleavon Little playing Sherrif Bart. Blazing Saddles was on one of the cable channels a couple of weeks ago and that is what prompted a new avatar. It is one of my top-5 favorite movies. I am gonna have to get it on a disc one of these days, every time it is on TV they edit it too hard.

[towerclimber37]

I he stands before his maker right quick..

[Guest Ghostrider]

1. There is only one practical way to remove a being from society after he has proven himself unfit to participate in that society. (Murdering 4 little kids (IMO) certainly qualifies.)

2. Sympathy - is halfway between **** and syphilis in the dictionary and that's where it belongs.

3. Need anyone to throw the switch/push the button?

4. If we can't be as ruthless as our enemies, we will be defeated. Check history. The fact that we can then return to our society and be what we were (mostly, at least) before, is (IMO) the mark of a civilized society.

5. Suggesting that we are somehow at the level of the muslims (who willfully target innocents, behead combatant prisoners, civilians and members of other religions, and multiple other atrocities, simply to make our religion superior) simply because we have capital punishment, is a pretty long reach.

But what do I know?