Knox City Council to Meet July 27th. Urgent!

[Guest Mudlizard]

I have seen all the surrounding countys positions, what about Knox??

[Oh Shoot]

Only two real mentions so far that I'm aware of.

1. First week of August city and/or county council are to have first discussion, dunno if actual action has been set. More of a debate apparently than I thought. Seems to be a move to ban SOME parks, mainly the ones that have ballfields and the the greenways that go "through school" property or somesuch.

2. the city (or county, I forget which) law director, I think (a woman, whoever she is) made a statement that as far as she was concerned, the parks are still legally banned even without signage, since this was enacted way back in the 60's or some s**t. Sounds pretty bogus to me, since of course NObody could legally carry back then, cept LEOs.

edit: she must be city law director, come to think of it, since county law director, Bill Lockett, is still under pressure to resign and/or be charged with some felonies and whatnot...haven't kept up with his fiasco.

We'll see...I AM surprised there has been very little hubbub about it all compared to other big towns.

Mayor Wimp Haslam refused to be pinned down as to his exact opinion. He's learned to ride the fence from Gov. Wimp Bredeson.

- OS

Edited July 26, 2009 by OhShoot

[Guest SUNTZU]

Haslam isn't going to allow carry in parks, IMO. He's made his stance on guns clear when he joined the Mayors Against Guns. Then he resigns. Then he joins the NRA. In the video below, he still believes that too many illegal guns are out there...he also talks about 10th amendment rights, or at least he is asked about his views, his response is vague, IMO.

YouTube - Bill Haslam ConserVOLiance Q&A - 2nd Amendment

[Oh Shoot]

... his response is vague, IMO...

Of course, he must be vague - he's running for governor.

- OS

[macville]

Knoxville to Consider Banning Concealed Carry in Local Parks!

Please Contact Knoxville City Council Immediately!

On Tuesday, July 28, Knoxville’s City Council will consider a resolution prohibiting carry by permit holders in parks within Knoxville’s city limits. Put forward by Knoxville’s Vice Mayor Bob Becker, the opt-out resolution is under item 11 and will be letter ‘O’ on Tuesday’s agenda. Click here to view the agenda.

All meetings are open to the public. To sign up to speak against the resolution during Tuesday’s meeting, please contact the City Recorder’s Office at (865) 215-2075. Individuals wishing to speak to the City Council may also sign up with the City Recorder on the night of the meeting. The vote to adopt the opt-out resolution will happen Tuesday at 7:00pm, so PLEASE attend and request to speak during the meeting and at the Public Forum held immediately upon adjournment.

The best way to get your opinion through to your local officials is to contact them immediately. Please respectfully urge them to oppose any resolution that would prohibit law-abiding permit holders from protecting themselves in local parks.

Resolution: Item 11: letter ‘O’

When: Tuesday, July 28 at 7:00 p.m.

Location:

Main Assembly Room

City Council Building

400 Main Avenue (downtown)

Knoxville, TN

Local Officials

Mayor Bill Haslam

City County Building

Phone: (865) 215-2040

Fax: (865) 215-2085

Email: mayor@cityofknoxville.org

Mayor’s Office

William Lyons, Senior Director

Department of Policy & Communications

Phone: (865) 215-2029

Email: wlyons@cityofknoxville.org

Larry B. Martin, Deputy to the Mayor

Phone: (865) 215-2086

Fax: 865-215-2277

Email: lmartin@cityofknoxville.org

Thomas Strickland, Jr., Director

Community Relations

Special Assistant to the Mayor

Phone: (865) 215-2048

Fax: (865) 215-2085

Email: tstrickland@cityofknoxville.org

Council members can be reached by contacting the City Recorder's Office

Phone: (865) 215-2075

Fax: (865) 215-4269

City Council Members

Vice Mayor Bob Becker - Fifth District

125 E. Columbia Avenue

Knoxville, TN 37917

Phone: 865-387-0752

Email: bob@bobbecker.org

Joe Bailey - at large

424 Hillvale Turn, West

Knoxville, TN 37919

Phone: (865) 637-4477

Email: jdbailey@cityofknoxville.org

Chris Woodhull - at large

223 Deadrick Avenue

Knoxville, TN 37921

Phone: (865) 661-4131

Email: chriswoodhull@bellsouth.net

Marilyn Roddy - at large

920 Iskagna Drive

Knoxville, TN 37919

Phone: (865) 637-0333

Email: mroddy@cityofknoxville.org

Joseph Hultquist- First District

2240 Fisher Place

Knoxville, TN 37920

Phone: (865) 579-1250

Email: joseph49@bellsouth.net

Barbara Pelot - Second District

8437 Corteland Drive

Knoxville, TN 37909

Home: (865) 693-0454 OR (865) 671-1544

Fax: (865) 693-0525

Email: rpelot3@aol.com

Steve Hall - Third District

5748 Acapulco Avenue

Knoxville, TN 37921

Phone: (865) 584-9567 OR (865) 522-1195

Email: InteriorFinishes@MSN.com

Rob Frost - Fourth District

P.O. Box 300

Knoxville, TN 37901-0300

Phone: (865) 525-1303 OR (865) 546-7000

Fax: 865-546-0423

Email: RobFrostCityCouncil@comcast.net

Robert J. Booker - Sixth District

2621 Parkview Avenue

Knoxville, TN 37914

Phone: (865) 546-1576

[macville]

BTW, does anyone have stats about how many states allow local park carry. Any on crime in parks in TN (or even other states.) Anything that might be useful to speak with tomorrow night and to also write emails to the reps.

Matthew

[Guest SUNTZU]

Here's my letter to the mayor. I'll be sending similar to the others shortly.

Mayor Haslam,

I watched your videos on youtube concerning the second amendment with the ConserVOLiance. In that video you said that you found out as mayor that there were many guns in the hands of people who didn't need them...people who were committing crimes. Sir, handgun carry permit holders are not those criminals. We are people who wish to defend ourselves from these people...IF THE NEED ARISES. We have an excellent police force, as well as Sheriff's office in this great city, but the fact remains that they cannot be everywhere. Please allow those of us who are law abiding permit holders to carry the means to defend ourselves and our families in these great parks of ours.

Respectfully,

[RDL]

Well said.

[LagerHead]

E-mail sent with stats. I don't expect to change anyone's mind, but I've been wrong before. Just once, though.

[LagerHead]

I actually received a response from the mayor (or one of his staff). Anyway, here is the e-mail and response in its entirety. Read if you're really bored.

====================================================

Dir Sir or Madam:

I am writing because it is my understanding that you plan to hold a hearing to review the possibility of opting out of the newly enacted law allowing legal Handgun Carry Permit (HCP) holders to carry their firearms in the state's parks. I hope you will consider the effect this will have on HCP holders in this state. First, with some local governments letting the law stand and others opting out, it creates a confusing patchwork within the state that may leave many otherwise law-abiding HCP holders unintentionally and unknowingly breaking the law. Second, in the case where they are aware, it will decrease tourism in your area.

I am a member of the NRA and active in supporting gun owners' rights, locally and nationally. I am a member of several online forums that discuss important issues, including gun-specific ones. I can tell you that there is a general outcry agreement among gun owners and that they are willing to speak with their wallets when considering travel and vacation destinations both in and out of state.

In addition, denying legal and law-abiding HCP holders the right to carry in your local parks will not have any effect on those who choose to disregard the law and carry whenever and wherever they please. According to

Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms

by James Wright and Peter Rossi (Aldine, 1986) 40% of criminals reported they would not attack someone they believe might be armed. And that was at a time when gun ownership in the United States was relatively low compared to today.

I would like to point out a few statistics regarding gun owners and crime. This is taken from

Gun Facts

by Guy Smith. I would highly recommend reading the pamphlet in its entirety. The following is in response to the myth that concealed carry laws increase crime:

Fact:

Thirty-nine states, comprising the majority of the American population, are "right-to-carry" states. Statistics show that in these states the crime rate fell (or did not rise) after the right-to-carry law became active (as of July, 2006). Nine states restrict the right to carry and two deny it outright.

Fact:

Crime rates involving gun owners with carry permits have consistently been about 0.02% of all carry permit holders since Floridas right-to-carry law started in 1988.1

Fact:

After passing their concealed carry law, Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below, and remains below the national average (as of the last reporting period, 2005).2

Fact:

In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their concealed carry law passed. Rape rates fell 93% faster in the first year after enactment, and 500% faster in the second.3 Assaults fell 250% faster in the second year.4

Fact:

More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right-to-carry laws5:

Fact:

States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national averages.6

Fact:

Deaths and injuries from mass public shootings fall dramatically after right-to-carry concealed handgun laws are enacted. Between 1977 and 1995,7 the average death rate from mass shootings plummeted by up to 91% after such laws went into effect, and injuries dropped by over 80%.8

Type of Crime % Higher in Restrictive States

Robbery 105%

Murder 86%

Assault 82%

Violent Crime 81%

Auto theft 60%

Rape 25%

1

Florida Department of Justice, 1998

2

Shall issue: the new wave of concealed handgun permit laws,

Cramer C and Kopel D. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994

3

Some criminologist believe measuring first year change is shortsighted as it takes more than a year for permits to be issued, reach critical quantities, and for the criminally minded to recognize the new situation and avoid violent confrontations.

4

Bureau of Justice Statistics, online database, reviewing Texas and U.S. violent crime from 1995-2001.

5

Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns

, Lott, John R., and Mustard, David B. J. of Legal Studies, vol.26, n.1, pp.1-68 (Jan. 1997): This study involved county level crime statistics from

all

3,054 counties in the U.S., from 1977 through 1992. During this time ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the US would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults and saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.

6

FBI, Uniform Crime Reports, 2004 - excludes Hawaii and Rhode Island - small populations and geographic isolation create other determinants to violent crime.

7

Federal legislation created a nation gun-free schools policy, effective in 1996. Some criminologists maintain this created a new dynamic, encouraging mass murder on campus. Thus after 1995 it is increasing difficult to make comparisons based on the effects of CCWs and mass shootings.

8

Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement

, John Lott and William Landes, Law School of the University of Chicago, Law & Economics Working Paper No. 73

The fact is, by denying law-abiding citizens their 2nd Amendment right in your parks, you are not preventing crime. If anything you are inviting it. Please vote in favor of the 2nd Amendment and the 200,000+ legal HCP holders in this state, as well as those who plan on visiting this state. I would like to thank you for your time in reading this lengthy e-mail and your consideration in this matter.

Sincerely,

Robert

Member

NRA

,

www.tngunowners.com

,

Patriot Guard Riders

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Mayor <Mayor@cityofknoxville.org> wrote:

Mr. E.,

Thanks for your email. A council member has placed an item on the forthcoming July 28th City Council agenda that "opts out" of the provisions of the new state law allowing permit holders to carry guns in local parks. While this is a city council decision and vote, I do not support any restriction on our second amendment rights that is not absolutely necessary.

Thus I do not personally favor a blanket "opt out" that restricts those with permits from carrying guns in all parks and greenways. It doesn't make sense to have a situation such that a person with a permit may legally carry while walking down Market Street only to become out of compliance with the law when he or she enters Krutch Park.

However, I understand the concern about the idea of folks with concealed weapons in attendance at Little League baseball games.

>>> Robert 07/27/2009 3:57 PM >>>

Dear Mr. Haslam,

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my e-mail. While you and I disagree about the "Little League" issue, I can certainly respect your point of view. Obviously you have taken the time to educate yourself on this issue and are making a decision based on facts instead of fear, ignorance, and paranoia. I hope the rest of the city council comes tomorrow night as well informed.

Sincerely,

Robert

Member NRA, Tennessee Gun Owners, Patriot Guard Riders

Edited July 27, 2009 by LagerHead

[Oh Shoot]

Here's my letter to the mayor. I'll be sending similar to the others shortly.

Mayor Haslam,

I watched your videos on youtube concerning the second amendment with the ConserVOLiance. In that video you said that you found out as mayor that there were many guns in the hands of people who didn't need them...people who were committing crimes. Sir, handgun carry permit holders are not those criminals. We are people who wish to defend ourselves from these people...IF THE NEED ARISES. We have an excellent police force, as well as Sheriff's office in this great city, but the fact remains that they cannot be everywhere. Please allow those of us who are law abiding permit holders to carry the means to defend ourselves and our families in these great parks of ours.

Respectfully,

Send it to the city council members as per above email addresses, they're the ones who vote.

I sent email to them all, so far only one has responded, noncommittal response.

I'm thinking I'll go down there tomorrow evening...if the speaker list isn't packed, maybe I'll even say something.

Hmmm...can you carry in the City County Building?

- OS

[macville]

Send it to the city council members as per above email addresses, they're the ones who vote.

I sent email to them all, so far only one has responded, noncommittal response.

I'm thinking I'll go down there tomorrow evening...if the speaker list isn't packed, maybe I'll even say something.

Hmmm...can you carry in the City County Building?

- OS

I will be down there also to show my support in defeating the resolution. I've written to Chris Woodhull as he is a facebook friend of mine and also Mayor Haslam, who goes to my church. It would be really great if a whole varied group of us showed up to let them know it's a whole cross section of people who have carry permits.

And no, you can not carry in the City County Building. It's properly posted and they have a metal detector. Of course, I feel better about not being able to carry there since they do sweep everyone.

Matthew

[Guest TargetShooter84]

No you can't carry in the county building.

[Oh Shoot]

...

And no, you can not carry in the City County Building. It's properly posted and they have a metal detector. Of course, I feel better about not being able to carry there since they do sweep everyone...

I guess you mean at entrance into the assembly room?

Haven't been there since I've been carrying, but was never swept or anything just to get into the building to register a car or something.

- OS

[Garufa]

Yes, send all your concerns to the city council members as they are the ones who vote and pass resolutions/ordinances.

However, also send letters to:

Thomas Strickland, Jr., Director

Community Relations

Special Assistant to the Mayor

Phone: (865) 215-2048

Fax: (865) 215-2085

Email: tstrickland@cityofknoxville.org

He might work for the city but he is also the Chairman of the Knox County Commission and I'm sure something similar will come before them as well. FYI that contact information is for his city-job, not County Commission business.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Garufa

[Guest TargetShooter84]

I didn't know Thomas Strickland was a member on here, that explains the sn, Strickj....now that's awesome!

[Guest Swamprunner]

Haslam's a punk. Period.

[macville]

I guess you mean at entrance into the assembly room?

Haven't been there since I've been carrying, but was never swept or anything just to get into the building to register a car or something.

I have been there a couple of times recently. It's properly posted and they have you go through the metal detectors at all doors. In fact, they don't even allow pocket knives in as they have held my tiny swiss army knife before. So just to warn you, don't go in packing. Leave your gun in the car along with any knives.

Matthew

[LagerHead]

Got another response. Though this one sounds like her mind's already made up.

Mr. E,

Thank you for taking the time to write. I believe this issue requires thorough publc debate and discussion.

Sincerely,

Marilyn Roddy

Knoxville City Councilmember At Large

[Guest SUNTZU]

I got the same canned response from Haslam. I will be sending emails to the others as well as Strickland.

OhShoot, I don't know when the last time you went to the city county building, but they have wands and metal detectors at the front door for us criminals.

[Oh Shoot]

I got the same canned response from Haslam. I will be sending emails to the others as well as Strickland.

OhShoot, I don't know when the last time you went to the city county building, but they have wands and metal detectors at the front door for us criminals.

I may not can go, then.

I haven't gone anywhere without gun in a year.

And much longer than that with my beloved blades!

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Got non-committal responses from Barbara Pelot, Marilyn Roddy, and Joe Bailey. My specific councilman, Robert Booker, is only one who doesn't list email. Tried calling him, no answer and no answering machine, great.

However, Joe Hultquist sent a very lucid and favorable response:

"It's good to hear from you. I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I

encourage you to come to the City Council meeting tonight if you can, even if you don't intend to speak. It is very important for there to be a good "head count" so that Council members can see for themselves that there are a lot of people who understand this issue and don't want such an (apparently) unnecessary restriction. I also encourage you to try to get others you know to attend in support of your position."

I called Cindy Mitchell, the City Recorder, to see about getting on the speakers list, but she said it was full. Matter of fact, only allowing 3 on each side for this particular meeting. She thought that the matter might not even be heard this evening, but postponed, and that probably even if heard, an actual vote would be postponed.

So, that being, I've decided not to attend this evening. You can see City Council live on channel 12 on Comcast, starting at 7, so I'll see what's up. I will definitely attend the next meeting (and I'll kick myself if the matter actually gets decided tonight.).

All indications are that it's likely to be another really messy decision, with some parks, or parts of parks, being off limits due to ball fields or schools, or something or other. Bound to be a convoluted camel (a horse designed by committee).

I am SO disappointed in the TN Legislature for their wimpy edition of this statute. A state law should be just that, a law that is the same state wide.

- OS

[macville]

I will be at the meeting tonight. It might be a total waste of time, but if it is heard, then I will be there to show my support.

If anyone else is coming, I will be wearing a black double jay creative t-shirt. You can't miss me as I'm 6'4, skinny, with spiked hair. Please come up and say hello.

Matthew

[Glenn]

The vote is scheduled for tonight 7-28 although rumor is it will be delayed. Here is the reply I got from Haslem

"Thanks for your email. A council member has placed an item on the tonight's City Council agenda that "opts out" of the provisions of the new state law allowing permit holders to carry guns in local parks. While this is a city council decision and vote, I do not support any restriction on our second amendment rights that is not absolutely necessary.

Thus I do not personally favor a blanket "opt out" that restricts those with permits from carrying guns in all parks and greenways. It doesn't make sense to have a situation such that a person with a permit may legally carry while walking down Market Street only to become out of compliance with the law when he or she enters Krutch Park.

However, I understand the concern about the idea of folks with concealed weapons in attendance at Little League baseball games.

Will report later

Glenn

[Oh Shoot]

As intimated to me beforehand, action on the carry in parks was postponed at start of city council meeting.

There is to be a "workshop" on the 20th of August, to allow supposedly extensive citizen input, and the final action on the regular meeting on the 25th.

Joe Hultquist, who is against at least a blanket ban on carry in parks, asked the audience to stand who were FOR the ban and NO ONE stood. Asked for those AGAINST the ban and quite a few stood, guessing about 20 that I could see from the camera shot!!

Good goin', y'all in attendance !!

I will definitely be there on the 20th, since it sounds as if most everyone can be heard. I urge all other Knoxvillians to do same - it's doubly important, as it sounds as if Knox County council will follow this lead.

- OS