AG: Gun ban remains for school athletic events

[Guest db99wj]

AG: Gun ban remains for school athletic events - WMC-TV: News, Weather, Traffic, Radar, and Sports for Memphis, TN; WMCTV.com |

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - Tennessee Attorney General Bob Cooper says people with handgun permits can't carry their weapons into parks or sports fields when they are being used by schools.

In an opinion released Monday, Cooper says the state's new law to allow permit holders to bring their guns in city and county parks does not prohibit schools from using those facilities. But once they do, guns would be banned there.

Cooper cites state law that bans guns in any area "owned, used or operated by a school." He writes that non-student permit holders can store their guns in their cars while school-sponsored events are going on.

The opinion was requested by House Republican Caucus Chairman Glen Casada of Franklin. Several communities are considering opting out of the guns in parks law.

So does this mean if a school is on a field trip, and they stop in at mcdonalds, you can't carry there? It's being "used" by a school..

[daddyo]

AG: Gun ban remains for school athletic events - WMC-TV: News, Weather, Traffic, Radar, and Sports for Memphis, TN; WMCTV.com |

So does this mean if a school is on a field trip, and they stop in at mcdonalds, you can't carry there? It's being "used" by a school..

Umm, I know that I won't be running out to my car to disarm. I really don't believe the law applies to locations other than public parks.

[Guest bkelm18]

So does this mean if a school is on a field trip, and they stop in at mcdonalds, you can't carry there? It's being "used" by a school..

Yeah that's a bit of a stretch.

[Guest db99wj]

I know, mostly sarcasm but with the knee jerk, uneducated bull**** decisions and postings(at businesses) that have been made lately.....you never know.

[JayC]

Umm, I know that I won't be running out to my car to disarm. I really don't believe the law applies to locations other than public parks.

If the AG's letter is correct you'd be wrong... It appears to apply *anywhere* in use by a school board, or college board. So yes, in theory if they show up a McD's, you'd be breaking the law.

We need to continue to work to remove these silly laws.

[strickj]

Yeah that's a bit of a stretch.

MDs has a playground too

[daddyo]

If the AG's letter is correct you'd be wrong... It appears to apply *anywhere* in use by a school board, or college board. So yes, in theory if they show up a McD's, you'd be breaking the law.

We need to continue to work to remove these silly laws.

You know, I might be, but I believe it would be hard for a prosecutor to convict on that. I think it's worth an email to Doug Jackson to see if that's the case. I'll let you know what I find out.

[Guest logicprevails]

The 'in use' only applies as an extension of school grounds. An example would be where the local high school team uses a football stadium located within a public park for their games. Schools enter into a use agreement with the local govt entity for utilizing public parks as athletic fields, constituting the extension of property. They don't enter into a use agreement with Mickey D's for field trip lunches. To assume to disarm in Mickey D's is as logical as assuming to disarm while walking your dog in your own neighborhood if there is a school sponsored canvassing fundraiser with kiddies walking door to door.

[Fallguy]

AG Opinion 09-129

QUESTIONS

1. Does Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1309, or any other provision of law, prohibit schools

from using athletic fields or other recreational facilities in public parks where holders of

handgun carry permits may possess firearms pursuant to Chapter 428 of the 2009 Public Acts of Tennessee?

2. Would a handgun carry permit holder, who may otherwise lawfully carry his firearm

in a public park under Chapter 428 of the 2009 Public Acts of Tennessee, violate Tenn. Code

Ann. § 39-17-1309 if he carried his firearm on an athletic field or other recreational facility

during a time that such athletic field or recreational facility was being used by a school?

OPINIONS

1. No. There is nothing in the plain meaning of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1309,

Chapter 428 of the 2009 Public Acts of Tennessee, or any other provision of law, that prohibits schools from using athletic or other recreational facilities in parks where handgun carry permit holders may lawfully possess their firearms pursuant to Chapter 428 of the 2009 Public Acts of Tennessee.

2. Yes. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1309 prohibits handgun carry permit holders from

possessing firearms in public parks during times when the athletic fields or other recreational

facilities are actually being used by schools.

Click the link above to see the ANALYSIS

So there is no reason for a local government to opt out of park carry because a school may use the park at times.

However if there is a school event going on at the park, carry would be prohibited.

One possible problem I can see....the local school here has a field day at the park toward the end of the school year. However I think it would be very easy for someone on the other side of the park to have no idea that a "school event" is going on within the park. Of course no one would probably know you are armed unless something happened that would make them be thankful you are armed.

[JayC]

You know, I might be, but I believe it would be hard for a prosecutor to convict on that. I think it's worth an email to Doug Jackson to see if that's the case. I'll let you know what I find out.

I don't disagree it would be hard to get a conviction... but the law is currently poorly worded to allow "floating" bans on weapons carry where people can't be expected to know about it, but still could be technically breaking the law.

The law needs to be changed before some prosecutor gets a wild hair up his butt Just remember convicted is bad, but only slightly more bad than a not guilty verdict to your pocket book j/k

[JayC]

The 'in use' only applies as an extension of school grounds. An example would be where the local high school team uses a football stadium located within a public park for their games. Schools enter into a use agreement with the local govt entity for utilizing public parks as athletic fields, constituting the extension of property. They don't enter into a use agreement with Mickey D's for field trip lunches. To assume to disarm in Mickey D's is as logical as assuming to disarm while walking your dog in your own neighborhood if there is a school sponsored canvassing fundraiser with kiddies walking door to door.

It would be nice IF that is how the law is written, but it's not.

The 'use' listed in the current law does not limit it to a contracted use, it just says "use".

It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

If the AGs letter is correct and that the use of a public park by a School Board (you'll note it didn't say anything about a contract being in place with the local government) then their use of any other location also carries the same limitation. And where does that use end?

Does the cross country team practicing in an otherwise 'open park' close it to carry? What about running along a street into a 'greenway'? Does a school visiting a public zoo close it to carry? If so what part of the zoo is closed? What if a school visits a state park as part of a class field trip, how is that different than using it for football practice?

And before you say I'm just making stuff up, I know for a fact that Vandy's cross country team runs all over West End and through a number of the parks there... And you'll note the language of 39-17-1309 states colleges just the same as a school or school board.

This law is poorly written IMHO and could be used to make up a charge against an otherwise law abiding HCP holder... I'm not even in agreement of posting schools and their property to begin with, let alone giving them the ability to create 'no carry' bubbles in otherwise lawful places to carry.

[Fallguy]

I want to agree with logicprevails in that use of a facility doesn't simply mean school children are there, such as a field trip etc...

But I have to agree with JayC that the law and the AG opinion does sort of muddy the waters a bit and really doesn't clarify things that much.

The schools in Milan do not have baseball fields, they use the ball fields at the city park. However little league games are also played on those fields. If I want to go walking on the walking track (far away from the ball fields) how am I supposed to know if it is a school team playing or a little league team playing? Or anyone else not there for the ballgame for that matter?

About the only good thing in this opinion is, it seems to clarify that a firearm locked in a vehicle, by a non-student adult, on school grounds is legal.

[DavidD]

This "Clear as Mud" opinion is only going to give cities one more reason that they should Opt out of the guns in parks law, like they needed any more . I don't see this helping us at all other than what Fallguy pointed out regarding the firarm locked in a vehicle.

[Guest Ggun]

sic

About the only good thing in this opinion is, it seems to clarify that a firearm locked in a vehicle, by a non-student adult, on school grounds is legal.

Yes, but there is still the question of whether passenger permit holders can leave their firearms in vehicles that they weren't operating.

[Fallguy]

This "Clear as Mud" opinion is only going to give cities one more reason that they should Opt out of the guns in parks law, like they needed any more . I don't see this helping us at all other than what Fallguy pointed out regarding the firarm locked in a vehicle.

Well yes and no.

I can see both sides using it to their advantage. If they want to prohibit carry they will just say it is easier if carry is prohibited all the time. If they want to allow carry they can point out that it doesn't prevent schools from using it.

You know this sort of brings out another quirk in the law. The AG has said a permit holder can leave his/her handgun in his/her car on school grounds and at a park that is being used for a school function....but there still is no provision in 39-17-1311 for a permit holder to leave his handgun in his/her vehicle in a park where the local government has opted out.

It really would seem if we can be trusted to leave our handguns in our vehicles at schools, we could trusted at parks, our place of employment and any other place that may attempt to post even their parking lot.....

[Oh Shoot]

....

About the only good thing in this opinion is, it seems to clarify that a firearm locked in a vehicle, by a non-student adult, on school grounds is legal.

And this makes another good target for thieves, who know likelihood of finding guns in cars at such events is better than average. Just like posted restaurants.

- OS

[JayC]

Fallguy,

I agree common sense says that McD's isn't closed to carry because a school bus stops to eat there... But under the AG letter, the though process is there for somebody to claim it is closed to carry and we're breaking the law..

The current law is poorly worded and we should work to get this issue fixed, because somebody can easily say today that being in a public place during a field trip by a school closes the entire location to HCP carry.

BTW, I do think my cross country team practice is much more of a concern, because how are you supposed to know until you see the team run by during practice?

I want to agree with logicprevails in that use of a facility doesn't simply mean school children are there, such as a field trip etc...

But I have to agree with JayC that the law and the AG opinion does sort of muddy the waters a bit and really doesn't clarify things that much.

The schools in Milan do not have baseball fields, they use the ball fields at the city park. However little league games are also played on those fields. If I want to go walking on the walking track (far away from the ball fields) how am I supposed to know if it is a school team playing or a little league team playing? Or anyone else not there for the ballgame for that matter?

About the only good thing in this opinion is, it seems to clarify that a firearm locked in a vehicle, by a non-student adult, on school grounds is legal.

[Guest 270win]

This law does seem a little gray and could cause the unsuspecting permit holder grief IF the wrong police officer was around and the wrong prosecutor wanted to hassle him. The law would be better written (if you want to prohibit carry on schools) to just do school BUILDINGS and that is it. That is basically what Arkansas does for licensees and it makes life simpler...one of the few smart things about their carry laws. The bad thing is you cannot carry at ANY athletic event, whether it be pro, little league, or college, no matter where the event is held in Arkansas.

Again, concealment goes a long ways to avoiding potential problems. I know I say it a lot but i look at it as the 5th Amendment. The only time you're going to be asked for a permit might be during a traffic stop. Other than that, as long as you aren't acting wierd and minding your own business, concealment covers the rest.

[Fallguy]

Fallguy,

I agree common sense says that McD's isn't closed to carry because a school bus stops to eat there... But under the AG letter, the though process is there for somebody to claim it is closed to carry and we're breaking the law..

The current law is poorly worded and we should work to get this issue fixed, because somebody can easily say today that being in a public place during a field trip by a school closes the entire location to HCP carry.

BTW, I do think my cross country team practice is much more of a concern, because how are you supposed to know until you see the team run by during practice?

Well I really do feel the opinion only applies to parks and recreational facilities, not just any place and really only when the school is using the facility for a school function, not just when students are there.

But I agree there are those that could try to twist it. Perhaps another good effect of this opinion will be some better worded laws.