G&A Reviews the H&K P30 and declares it a home run hit

[The Rabbi]

And honestly, anyone who carries openly is just asking for trouble....

[molonlabetn]

And honestly, anyone who carries openly is just asking for trouble....

I can't believe millions of LEOs get away with it every day...

[The Rabbi]

I can't believe millions of LEOs get away with it every day...

Yeah. And they ask for trouble...

[creeky]

Must be the uniform, badge, vest, flashlight, handcuffs, taser, walkie talkie, double mag holder and shiney shoes that makes it so easy for them.

Oh yeah... and the gun in a holster with a thumb break on top.

[molonlabetn]

...they are the only ones 'professional enough' I guess...

[creeky]

As the public views it... I would say yes. The perception of the general public is that they are highly trained and professional.

Bluejeans, AC/DC shirt with holes, flip flops, and open carry (for the general public) does not instill the same level of confidence that they are looking at a trained, professional (ie: safety minded) individual.

It may be that the AC/DC guy is an NRA Pistol Instructor, shoots IDPA, and is retired military where he served as a Small Arms Weapons Instructor... while the policeman may only fire his weapon when he has to qualify (prefers to pocket his training allowance of *$50 a month so he can buy beer) and also beats his wife.

My point is perception can be stronger than reality. It may not be right, but peception is what we use to assess and evaluate our surroundings.

(Not trying to turn this into the old Open vs. Conceal thing... honestly.)

*This figure is from a conversation I had with a friend that is a Chief of Police. He was invled in a shooting early in his career, so when he became Chief he set up a training allowance. Hardly any used the $50 a month for ammo. Sooooo... he bought the ammo at a discount and handed it out. Then he found out that a lot of them were selling it. Sooooo... now he has to issue it to them while they are phyiscally at the range! Take about hand holding... I was shocked. I asked hm why they did that. He said... "Most have the mindset that it won't happen to them." Really scarry if you ask me.

[Marswolf]

Meanwhile back at the ranch....

Actually, I find that Glocks can be damn accurate. That's not why I have a problem with them. I have a friend who is semi-retired LE. He's a constable now. He has carried his G23 for many years in several departments and is one of those people I'd not want to go up against at 100 yards or so.

My problems with the Glock come from the poorly supported chamber section, the ability to fire out of battery and the inexplicable tendency for people to set them off accidentally while pointing at their leg or butt. Lots of good guns out there that don't have those problems. Why settle for one that does?

And I found some 45 ACP ammo this morning in a box that a friend reloaded for me. I can promise you it's +P+. That's all he loads. It is something that I know should not be fired from a Glock. When you fire a round from your handgun, you might need to be concerned with how much recoil to expect, but you shouldn't have to worry about if the gun will destruct in your hand if you get some over-hot loads.

And as far as wiping down a gun more than shooting one, I'm sure I've done that. I tend to wander around in jungles and such and wiping off your handgun or rifle is a good idea. But a fair amount of my target practice has had a moving target on the other end of the bullet path. And the target was shooting back. I tell you that not to brag or convince myself that I'm manly and that somehow others without that experience are not. Lots of good people are not combatants. I tell you that so you will understand why I hold in such disdain those who do not put themselves at such risk, or who try and fail at such adventures, but who issue challenges to others to supposedly prove their worth. Note that this was not our situation here. But that is the situation with one bit of vermin we have talked about.

BTW, here's what a real warrior looks like.

[The Rabbi]

Nah.

Now THIS is a real warrior:

[GhostDog]

or does that new HK look a little like a Glock? What a deal at twice the price!

[TGO David]

or does that new HK look a little like a Glock? What a deal at twice the price!

I cannot argue that, but I think it's actually more similar in look to the new Smith & Wesson M&P series. As for it being a deal at twice the price, when you consider the evolutionary improvements that the P30 makes to the "Glock style" platform, I think the results are worth the cost of admission.

Ambindextrous controls, supported chamber, grip that can be customized by the user for the user... all things that Glock lacks still. And by still I mean 20 years after the first Glocks started doing their thing.

[The Rabbi]

or does that new HK look a little like a Glock? What a deal at twice the price!

I thought it looked like a Hi Point.

As for "innovations", ambi controls are important only if you're a lefty. Changeable back strap is nice but to me a gun fits or it doesnt. Supported chamber? OK, maybe.

Is that worth however much more it is? (And I didnt see a MSRP in the article). I guess it is to those who would buy it.

[GhostDog]

We can make all sorts of useless things as long as someone will buy them!

Seriously, I agree about the grip. It's nice to be able to fit the grip to your own hand (good thing about revolvers). The stock grip on most pistols fit me fine as long as it's not too big (45 Glocks are out of the question), but it's still nice to be able to change it.

I wouldn't pay that much for it, but then again, I wouldn't pay $40,000 for a pick-up truck either.

[TGO David]

I hear ya. The other beauty of free enterprise is that we all get to choose our poison.

[GhostDog]

Exactly! We all get to choose our poison. If only we could all do it without trying to sell the rest of the world on our choice.

[Guest Steelharp]

Exactly! We all get to choose our poison. If only we could all do it without trying to sell the rest of the world on our choice.

But that is human nature. We do it with everything, from boxes of Breeze to our Deity.

[GhostDog]

Don't bring up the Deity! If you think these Glock "discussions" get heated, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[Marswolf]

I though some people consider Glocks to be an integral part of the deity.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

The ambi magazine release is one of the things I really like about H&Ks. I am solidly a right-handed person, but I always drop the magazine with my right index finger.

As far as cost is concerned, I think you get more value in a H&K than the additional cost over a Glock. My rule of thumb is that an equivalent street price for a H&K is probably a couple of hundred dollars more than a Glock. But it is an investment you may live with for many years - if you get the right gun. I threw away a lot of money on two Glocks that worked, but had deficiencies I couldn't live with. So, did I spend too much for my H&Ks or did I just piss away money on the Glocks?

[The Rabbi]

So, did I spend too much for my H&Ks or did I just piss away money on the Glocks?

Neither. You tried the Glock platform and paid to discover it wouldn't work for you, for whatever reason. You spent money and found the HK platform worked for you. Some people never find a gun that really works well for them.

It has taken me probably 10 years and as many carry guns to find this Smith 19 2 1/2 in nickel that for me is ideal, compact enough to carry and conceal well and I can shoot it decently. I'd pay almost anything for that.

[creeky]

We are also in an enviroment where advertising (and some articles) are telling us we need the next greatest thing that shoots lead. The next greatest caliber, the next greatest carry firearm. Advertising is based (in Part) in convincing you that what you have isn't good enough, and you deserve better.

To follow Rabbi's train of thought... we may hate to admit it, but if we are honest it is a matter of trial an error in finding what suits us best. We have to get away from "brand" names and "slogans" and evaluate a firearm in the context of what we want it to do, how well we can use it to do that. Anything else will just cloud our judgement. (IMHO)

Carried a 3" .45 single action... love the caliber, and hope to own another one. But just didn't work too well for me personally. I now have the HK Compact... really like it.

But if I were to be honest with myself... I miss my old hammerless Taurus .38 five shot, great gun and soooo comfortable to carry.

[molonlabetn]

I'm still looking for mine... The XD I have and the P239 were both very close, I'm hoping that the P2000 will be it, kinda in between the two.

[Marswolf]

No doubt about having to try different guns to see what works for you. I ran through three other guns before settling on the Kel-Tec P3AT for my BUG. But with a little more talking to friends and knowledgeable people I could have cut down that trial or even eliminated it.

Same with my urban side carry USP40 and P7M8 IWB carry. I bought two Glocks knowing that people I respected use them, but never evaluated why they were good handguns for them but wouldn't be for me. To be honest, the G23 would still work for me in an open US only carry situation. But that chamber gives me the willies and the USP gives me more options, especially for foreign carry where ammunition is significantly more variable. Overkill perhaps for most people, but you need a handgun that you really plan to use that you can have full confidence in.

I've talked to a lot of people who either own Glocks or have owned them. A pile were bought because it's the gun that cops carry. There are reasons why cops carry them. There are reasons why they are poor choices for most of the public.

[GhostDog]

I had no idea there was such a huge amount of questionable, surplus 40S&W ammo lying around foreign countries. I thought the whole 40S&W thing was an American invention, didn't know everyone else had gotten in on the act. I guess I missed that one.

I think that anyone going overseas, carrying their own gun (which excludes 99.9% of us) would probably take a 9mm. That is the ammo that is plentiful in most foreign lands. The 9mm Glocks don't have the unsupported chamber problem that the 40s do, so a Glock would be just fine in that role. It is an Austrian pistol, after all (You know, the 9mm NATO round, which is supposed to be pretty hot). The whole argument is starting to set off my BS meter.

As far as Kel-Tec goes, you couldn't give me one. When they first came out, I saw one of the frames break after a few rounds. That was enough for me. I know a lot of folks swear by them and I have no doubt that the guns are much better now. Having said all that, I'll pass. If I need a good, small carry or BUG, I'll stick w/ a S&W J Frame. But that's just me. Just because it's not my choice, I'm not going to say the guns are no good. That would just make me look silly.

[Marswolf]

Oh wow, I didn't know that 40 S&W was only manufactured and used in the US. I'll have to tell my friends in other countries that they can't get local ammo there for the handguns they are carrying. 40 S&W is becoming more common in foreign circles for the same reason it has become common here.

In 9mm the problem you sometimes have overseas is "hard primers". You may have to do a double-strike to get it to fire. I posted something about that recently. Oh that's right, you can't do that with a Glock.

GhostDog, I'm surprised you didn't like the Kel-Tec P3AT. It has a partially supported chamber. It's probably the most common BUG around here for LE.

[GhostDog]

Which is better, to continue dropping the hammer on bad ammo or "tap, rack, and go"? You decide, it is after all, your rear end that's on the line. No skin off my nose either way. Suffice to say, my solution may differ from yours.

I'm sure the Kel-Tecs are OK. I just don't trust them. I make my own decisions and I live w/ the consequences. I just don't try to convince the rest of the world that I'm always right.

[TGO David]

I've always trained to tap and rack... but that's just me.