Attention Wal-Mart shoppers…. Look what you paid for.

[DaveTN]

New Chinese Ballistic Missile Submarine Spotted

By Hans M. Kristensen

A new satellite image appears to have captured China's new ballistic missile submarine. Coordinates:

38°49'4.40"N, 121°29'39.82"E.

A commercial satellite image appears to have captured China's new nuclear ballistic missile submarine. The new class, known as the Jin-class or Type 094, is expected to replace the unsuccessful Xia-class (Type 092) of a single boat built in the early 1980s.

The new submarine was photographed by the commercial Quickbird satellite in late 2006 and the image is freely available on the Google Earth web site.

A Comparison of SSBN Dimensions

Two satellite images are now available (see figure below) that clearly show two missile submarines with different dimensions. One image from 2005 shows what is believed to be the Xia-class (Type 092) SSBN in drydock at the Jianggezhuang Submarine Base approximately 14 miles east of Qingdao. The submarine is approximately 390 feet (120 meters) long of which the missile compartment makes up roughly 80 feet (25 meters). Twelve missile launch tubes are clearly visible.

The second image from late 2006 shows what appears to be the new Jin-class (Type 094) SSBN moored at the Xiaopingdao Submarine Base south of Dalian, approximately 193 miles north of Qingdao. The Jin-class appears to be approximately 35 feet (10 meters) longer than the Xia-class SSBN, primarily due to an extended mid-section of approximately 115 feet (35 meters) that houses the missile launch tubes and part of the reactor compartment.

These two commercial satellite images of the old Xia-class SSBN (top) and the new Jin-class SSBN show the different major compartments. The Jin-class appears to be approximately 35 feet (10 meters) longer with an extended missile compartment. Both images view the submarines from a "eye-altitude" of approximately 500 feet (152 meters).

The extended missile compartment of the Jin-class seems seems intended to accommodate the Julang-2 sea-launched ballistic missile, which is larger than the Julang-1 deployed on the Xia-class. Part of the extension may also be related to the size of the reactor compartment. The U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated in 2004 that the Jin-class, like the Xia-class, will have 12 missiles launch tubes (see figure below). Other non-governmental sources frequently claim the submarine will have 16 tubes. The satellite image is not of high enough resolution to show the hatches to the missile launch tubes.

The U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated in December 2006 that China might build five Jin-class SSBNs. The estimate has been widely cited by non-governmental institutes and some news media as a fact, but the Pentagon's annual report on China's military forces from May 2007 did not repeat the estimate.

This is rumored to be a snap shot of the new skipper..

[Marswolf]

I don't quite understand. Am I supposed to blame Wal-Mart for this?

[Guest GlocKingTN]

I don't quite understand. Am I supposed to blame Wal-Mart for this?

Me too. Not sure what this has to do with Wal-Mart????

[Guest GetoffTheX]

I think what the OP was eluding to was that 99% of all the products wally world carries has a MADE IN CHINA tag on it.

This is a staunch reminder why we need to support industry based in the USA, with proceeds that STAY in the USA.

Y'all got a pretty cool forum.

[DaveTN]

I don't quite understand. Am I supposed to blame Wal-Mart for this?

No, Wal-Mart is just a business.

This is a staunch reminder why we need to support industry based in the USA, with proceeds that STAY in the USA.

[Guest Old Chief]

Wal-Mart could not trade with China if the fedral government had restrictions on China. Blaming Wal-Mart is letting the fedral government off the hook. You should go to the source of the problen and not blame a symptom.

[Marswolf]

Y'all got a pretty cool forum.

I think so too.

As far as supporting industry based in the USA, I agree. But that requires that people get paid what their labor is worth.

[DaveTN]

Absolutely you should go to the source of the problem; and it’s not the government.

The American consumer defines our economy.

The government placing restrictions on China would be seen as an act of war. Just as the oil embargo was seen as an act of war by the Japanese.

The American people have to decide what they want the future of their children and grandchildren to be and act accordingly.

This ain’t rocket science.

[TGO David]

So... can I return that to the customer service desk in unopened condition and use the refund to get some more ammo for my guns?

[The Rabbi]

Yes, it's that darn global competition thing.

See, when countries try protecting their industries from lower-cost producers, they end up making things far worse. The domestic industries churn out worse and worse goods and consumers pay higher and higher prices for them. Eventually the industry cannot compete in the international marketplace and the gov't ends up subsidizing them directly (instead of merely through tariffs which guarantee higher prices). So you finally have a bunch of old outdated industries. See how great things were in E.Germany by the time re-unification came around.

So if American workers wanted to work for .50 cents an hour we could have all those industries back. Of course our standard of living would look like some 3rd world country.

[DaveTN]

So... can I return that to the customer service desk in unopened condition and use the refund to get some more ammo for my guns?

No, Wal-Mart has a policy against ballistic missile launching devices. Hero-Gear or Dick’s would probably trade you some ammo for it though.

[DaveTN]

Yes, it's that darn global competition thing.

See, when countries try protecting their industries from lower-cost producers, they end up making things far worse. The domestic industries churn out worse and worse goods and consumers pay higher and higher prices for them. Eventually the industry cannot compete in the international marketplace and the gov't ends up subsidizing them directly (instead of merely through tariffs which guarantee higher prices). So you finally have a bunch of old outdated industries. See how great things were in E.Germany by the time re-unification came around.

So if American workers wanted to work for .50 cents an hour we could have all those industries back. Of course our standard of living would look like some 3rd world country.

You will never hear me suggest that our country (if you mean the government) try to protect our industries. I will however say that protecting our economy rests squarely on the shoulders of the American consumer.

Wringing our hands and saying that it is a “global economy†and we can’t stop it is certainly the easy thing to do. That is until your Grandkids want you to explain to them how you could have been so ignorant and why you sold them out.

[Guest nitrous_mike]

Kinda funny this was just posted on another forum that I visit more whitetrash-mart related good heart warming stories http://www.lamanaphotography.com/walmart2.htm .

[The Rabbi]

You will never hear me suggest that our country (if you mean the government) try to protect our industries. I will however say that protecting our economy rests squarely on the shoulders of the American consumer.

Wringing our hands and saying that it is a “global economy†and we can’t stop it is certainly the easy thing to do. That is until your Grandkids want you to explain to them how you could have been so ignorant and why you sold them out.

Hmm, I need a widget. I can either buy the American-made widget or I can save 30% and buy the Chinese-made widget. If I buy the American-made one I won't have enough money to buy shoes for my kids. The Chinese-made widget works just fine for what I need.

Guess which one I'm gonna buy.

Now multiply that by hundreds of thousands of items a year.

So I guess all those people on a budget trying to feed their families are subversive swine undermining our country. Why cant they just fork over the extra shekels and "buy American"?

No, you will not get people to fork out extra money for items that do not provide more value. Even putting a little "Made in U.S.A" stamp on it.

And people doing so are deluding themselves because "buying American" they have fewer dollars to spend on other stuff. Unless someone is just a wealthy plutocrat like Dave with money to burn.

[bteague2]

That sandals thing is disgusting.

Kinda funny this was just posted on another forum that I visit more whitetrash-mart related good heart warming stories http://www.lamanaphotography.com/walmart2.htm .

[DaveTN]

Unless someone is just a wealthy plutocrat like Dave with money to burn.

I understand that you are too ignorant to comprehend what is being discussed most of time. But is it necessary for you to take cheap personal shots at everyone that does not agree with your point of view. If you don’t like what I have to say; offer your opinion, but no need to be a dick.

[The Rabbi]

I understand that you are too ignorant to comprehend what is being discussed most of time. But is it necessary for you to take cheap personal shots at everyone that does not agree with your point of view. If you don’t like what I have to say; offer your opinion, but no need to be a dick.

I appreciate your name calling and it's been duly noted.

But to call people unpatriotic or otherwise show them disrespect when they are acting rationally in their own interests is uninformed at best. Insisting on Made In USA is a luxury that few working families can afford.

[fury2neon]

On another note: If we are seeing one of these there are probably at least 11 others stashed somewhere. A friend of mine worked for NASA and while there was sent on a "good will" mission to China to discuss manned space fight. He was the new "at the time" Chinese rocket and its 11 backups. He indicated that We as American when we launch something expect it to work and if it does not then there is hell to pay. The soviets before the fall would have three backups in case the first one failed. He indicated that the Chinese had build 12 just in case one and then another and another failed. So if this sub gets "lost" at sea they will just launch a backup and pretend they never lost the first one... Thanks to our satellite systems (and everyone else's) they will have a hard time pulling that off though.

[DaveTN]

I appreciate your name calling and it's been duly noted.

But to call people unpatriotic or otherwise show them disrespect when they are acting rationally in their own interests is uninformed at best. Insisting on Made In USA is a luxury that few working families can afford.

Oh Buying an M&P made by Americans here doesn’t cost anymore than buying an XD made in Croatia. Buying a car made here by Americans doesn’t cost anymore than buying a Toyota made in Japan or a Nissan made in Japan and shipped here to be bolted together. Many things you no longer have a choice on being made here… TV’s, Cameras, most computer components.

Since you brought up being a Patriot…..

pa·tri·ot :

–noun

1.

a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.

Being a Patriot means that you not only protect your country and her people; but you protect the economy as well. Patriots also are not always concerned about their interests; they are acting in the best interests of their country. If someone can’t afford to make the right choices no one is going to hold that against them; but that is rarely the case. Please don’t plead poverty.

I haven’t called anyone unpatriotic or disrespected anyone; except you.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

I haven’t called anyone unpatriotic or disrespected anyone; except you.

That will be all for the name calling...PERIOD! This is the verbal warning, the next one will NOT be verbal. I dont wanna sound like an azz, but this forum isn't for name calling, AT ALL! Now I'm gonna be the "dick" and stop it before it starts! We are all friends here and it WILL remain that way. If you have nothing nice to say, STFU!!! I am not pointing fingers here, but you know who you are. So I'm asking, please refrain from name calling on this forum. Voicing your opinions is OK and appreciated, but the name calling stops HERE!

Thanks, and have a nice day!

GlocKingTN

[The Rabbi]

Oh Buying an M&P made by Americans here doesn’t cost anymore than buying an XD made in Croatia. Buying a car made here by Americans doesn’t cost anymore than buying a Toyota made in Japan or a Nissan made in Japan and shipped here to be bolted together. Many things you no longer have a choice on being made here… TV’s, Cameras, most computer components.

This may shock you, but the economy for guns differs markedly for the economy for, well, everything else. In fact, I'll go further and say most people actually never buy a gun in their lives.

Oh, yeah. Toyotas are made here. Nissans are made just down the road from you. BMWs are made in South Carolina and Mercedes are made in Alabama. GM and Ford import most of their parts from elsewhere.

And while we're on the subject, Berettas (Italian) are made in Virginia, SIGs (Swiss) are made in New Hampshire, Glocks (Austrian) in GA, and FN (Belgium) in South Carolina.

You would be hard-pressed to find a product "made in USA" that actually is.

As for cost, when I opened my shop I wanted some machine equipment. I didnt need top of the line stuff because I am not using it too much. I could have gone to Home Depot and gotten an nice expensive high quality American-made piece of machinery. But then I would only have been able to afford one thing. So I went to Harbor Freight and picked up both a grinder and a drill press for what either one would have cost "American made."

It is the height of ignorance to be unaware of the global economy. It is the height of folly to think it can be turned back by clever slogans and empty threats.

[DaveTN]

Oh, yeah. Toyotas are made here. Nissans are made just down the road from you. You would be hard-pressed to find a product "made in USA" that actually is.

Wrong. Assembly is not manufacturing. Do you know the difference?

It is the height of ignorance to be unaware of the global economy. It is the height of folly to think it can be turned back by clever slogans and empty threats.

I’m not ignorant and I’m not unaware of the global economy. I don’t have to roll over either.

I’m not talking about clever slogans. And who’s making threats?

[Guest Jason F.]

Sorry Dave but you are pretty much wrong on the car issue. I personally know where the parts that go into the Nissan's made here in Smyrna and Canton Mississippi from and it is not Japan. Unlike many of your Chevy (and other US makers) cars which are turned out in Mexico and Canada. There are dozens of dozens of plants all over the North East, Middle America, and the Southeast making these parts and shipping them into Nissan. Those are American owned and operated companies making the parts and American truck drivers hauling them in. I know those drivers and the companies they work for.

In addition to the Smyrna and Canton plants you also have the Decherd, TN plant which makes the engines for the cars made in those two plants. Also in Middle TN you have Calsonic making several components for Nissan's. If you do not think parts are made here tell that to the guys I went to school with that made and serviced the molds for the steel stamping lines here in Smyrna.

You could argue that it is still a Japanese Company that sends its profits back overseas but that is a small amount when it comes to the millions of dollars pumped into American companies and millions of dollars pumped into the pockets of American workers. One trucking company out of several hauling in only a portion of the parts turns revenue in excess of 30 to 50 million a year with the dedicated Nissan only operation. I am married to the person who used to set up most of those trucking lanes and many of the staff she dealt with both at Nissan and the trucking company have been at my house drinking my beer and eating my food.

Some of you might also find it interesting that one of Nissan's biggest exports out of this country is the Altima which is shipped by the thousands to Arab countries in the Middle East.

On a side not I work in a manufacturing environment and more and more of the type of work I do is sent over seas every year. It is not just because it it cheaper to make the products in another country, it is also because there are not enough people willing to make the product here. My industry (I am a production machinist) struggles to find people who want to enter the industry and have the basic education to make it through a Technical School or an Apprenticeship program. Apparently $12 to $14 dollars an hour to start and $18 to low $20's an hour is just not enough money for the folks getting out of high school these days, that will not buy you a $40k dollar truck. It is not that they can't live on $25k to $40k a year it is that they "choose" not to.

Simply put I love America it is most Americans I can not stand. I know that is an old quote and I do not know the source but it is so true. We have nothing and no one to blame but ourselves and if a company has a Japanese name it does not make them the enemy.

[Guest GregRN]

I wish someone would come up with a good solution. A minority of people can pay for a name on a product, but the majority have to buy based on quality or convenience, or God forbid, on price. I agree with Rabbi in that you can't expect people to pay more for "Made in the USA". Especially, now that the products may be made here and assembled somewhere else, or vice versa. The global economy has blurred everything to the point of not knowing what "Made in the USA" stands for.

However, I absolutely abhor going into Wal-Mart for the simple reason of finding "Made in China" on everything I pick up. Please, someone give us a good viable solution.

[Guest macho999]

To talk about "American Made" and then use an example where almost every model from every manufacturer is manufactured in more than one country leaves me shaking my head.

Here's an example:

Aisin Automotive in London, KY

Here's their website

http://www.aisinauto.com/

They're proud suppliers to:

Toyota

Honda

Nissan

and General Motors

Imagine that "Japanese Made" and "American Made" right there on the same line in the same plant owned by Asians in Kentucky.

And that's just in that one plant. Aisin Automotive is a subsidiary of Aisin Seiko Co. LTD with plants all over the world.

Here's a list of the customers of Aisin Seiko Co LTD

http://www.aisin.com/profile/customer/index.html

To save you the trouble of scrolling through that exhaustive list it's pretty much every company to slap a name on the back of a vehicle including GM and Ford.

Point being, anything that rolls out of this plant in Kentucky can claim "American Made" status, but what does that really mean? Absolutely nothing.