The Buy Local Gun Dilemma

[9teeneleven]

I decided that I needed a new semi-auto this week, so I went around all the local shops to get some hands on different models. I guess I should start by saying that I really want to buy locally, both to help the local businesses and the local economy, but also because it lets me do what I did, trying out different models. However, the two guns that I narrowed down to, and ultimately the gun I bought (albeit bought online) both had huge price differences between the online and local costs. I know this is not a new issue, but it was really driven home for me. I want to buy local, but after tax is figured in the prices are not even in the same ballpark to be remotely justifiable. One gun I was interested in was $530 online shipped, and $620-650 locally before tax. The one I ended up buying was $815 online shipped, and $930 locally before tax. Even factoring in FFL transfer, I saved $175 going the online route. That is way too much just for the convenience of getting to handle a gun first. Additionally, Local gunshops don't seem willing to shift much at all on these prices, probably because the just don't handle the same volume.

Anyway, kind of rambling a bit, but like I said, the real discrepancy was driven home for me. Hard to see how these local guys can even keep local business buying locally.

As a kind of side issue, none of us like taxes, but should these online retailers be forced to be accountable for state sales taxes. If nothing else, it would level the playing field a little. State revenues are declining at a rapid pace, and I can't help but think that lost sales tax revenue is certainly a major factor in that decline. If the sales taxes don't come in, the revenue has to come from somewhere. If charging these out of state retailers sales tax helps local businesses stay competitive, perhaps that is the best of the worst choices. When some businesses are set at a fairly large disadvantage, then that is not a free market.

[Guest TUNER260]

Its not just taxes alot of the online stores sell in such large volume they are able to buy merchindise cheaper therefore sell it cheaper and still make the same profit. Just like walmart.

[Guest HexHead]

As a kind of side issue, none of us like taxes, but should these online retailers be forced to be accountable for state sales taxes. If nothing else, it would level the playing field a little. State revenues are declining at a rapid pace, and I can't help but think that lost sales tax revenue is certainly a major factor in that decline. If the sales taxes don't come in, the revenue has to come from somewhere. If charging these out of state retailers sales tax helps local businesses stay competitive, perhaps that is the best of the worst choices. When some businesses are set at a fairly large disadvantage, then that is not a free market.

Technically there is a form you're supposed to file with the State to report the sale and pay the applicable taxes.

The clerk that handles that at the Dept of Revenue must have the loneliest job since the Maytag repairman.

[Garufa]

Can we just not celebrate the issue of on-line purchases and sales tax on a public forum.

[Motasyco]

^^^^^^

Edited July 25, 2009 by Motasyco
What Garufa said.

[9teeneleven]

Can we just not celebrate the issue of on-line purchases and sales tax on a public forum.

Slightly confused, do you mean we shouldn't flaunt in a public forum that we don't pay sales tax on out of state purchases, or do you mean can't we just celebrate that one can buy cheaper guns online.

If it is the former, I am certainly not advocating that one should not pay sales tax that is owed, but simply making an observation that it is more than just common practice that no one does. When amazon delivers a DVD or book to your door, I would say that the vast majority of people(99.9999%) are not going to pay taxes on that. While making such an observation, it is fair to say that since this is a fact of both practice by consumers, and lack of enforcement, or means for enforcement at the state level, local shops are at a huge disadvantage. I didn't mean to make this into a sales tax issue, but rather a question of how local shops can compete with online retail. In every shop I went into, the clerks were friendly, and genuinely helpful. That is something I value, but when it comes down to $175 difference (I'd like to think of that as a 600-700 rounds of ammo difference) it is hard to justify, even though I wish I could.

In the gun market, local shops do have one advantage which is the huge hassle of doing an FFL transfer. However, I wonder how much of an advantage that really is.

Edited July 25, 2009 by 9teeneleven

[Motasyco]

Keep in mind the FFL dealer gets to collect the transfer fee, which he sets, while incuring little to no expense from the transaction. No margins, no stocking, no inventory, just receive the item, run the background check, collect that fee, hand the item to you, collect the transfer fee, document the transaction. Takes about three minutes at my dealer and he seems happy to do it. I always give him the opportunity to match the deal before I buy online. If he can come close, even if slightly above, including tax, I will buy local and have. The local dealer also gets most of my accessory purchases which probably have a better margin than the firearms. I'm usually in his store once a week and rarely walk out without buying something. I think we have a relationship that works for both of us.

[Metalhead]

I will ALWAYS do my best to beat online competitors prices. Most of the time, it's easily done. Sometimes, just because some place has soandsohotassgun for $50 less than I do, but it is out of stock and has no clue when he's going to get more, means my price stays the same. I have the gun, he doesnt. It's really easy to beat everyones price on a gun you dont have.

By far the hardest to beat on some things is Buds, but only on select items that they bought a crapload of when it was on sale/clearance. However, sometimes its easier just to take the $25, than make $10 beating their price .

There are some exceptions, such as say a new gun hitting the market that everyone wants, and some place has it $20 less than I do. In that case, $20 isnt gouging on a hot gun - just our normal mark up. If soandso has it less and has it in stock, be my guest, I make $25. Chances are the next guy that walks through the door will buy mine. Everyone wins!

[Guest grimel]

As a kind of side issue, none of us like taxes, but should these online retailers be forced to be accountable for state sales taxes.

If the sales taxes don't come in, the revenue has to come from somewhere.

If charging these out of state retailers sales tax helps local businesses stay competitive, perhaps that is the best of the worst choices. When some businesses are set at a fairly large disadvantage, then that is not a free market.

Why? What makes it the responsibility of some out of state retailer to collect taxes for Tn?

How about the government does like we do - if income drops cut spending. WOW, what a concept.

No, the best choice is lower the TN sales tax. We haven't had a free market (esp with regard to firearms) in decades.

[Guest grimel]

However, the two guns that I narrowed down to, and ultimately the gun I bought (albeit bought online) both had huge price differences between the online and local costs. I know this is not a new issue, but it was really driven home for me. I want to buy local, but after tax is figured in the prices are not even in the same ballpark to be remotely justifiable. One gun I was interested in was $530 online shipped, and $620-650 locally before tax. The one I ended up buying was $815 online shipped, and $930 locally before tax. Even factoring in FFL transfer, I saved $175 going the online route.

I'd be willing to bet which shops you visited. I know I buy a lot of guns online because what I want isn't available locally - used S&W revovlers. When I buy a new gun, the price difference between Phantom6 and online retailers is usually less than $50 net. Used guns online can't be beat. New guns, are a wash for most guns.

[Wingshooter]

In some cases there is lower overhead with on-line retailers as well.

I'm sure many local TN shops bring revenue from on-line sales to out of state customers. Those that live in KY might find a better deal from a TN on-line store than they do from Buds.

That being said, I always try to support the local store as well. Sometimes you just find a substantially better deal on a particular item on line.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Batman

[9teeneleven]

Why? What makes it the responsibility of some out of state retailer to collect taxes for Tn?

How about the government does like we do - if income drops cut spending. WOW, what a concept.

No, the best choice is lower the TN sales tax. We haven't had a free market (esp with regard to firearms) in decades.

Let me throw one example out. I am paid by the state. In a time of recession, our demand grows 30-40%, yet our budget for this year just lost 30%.

Cutting spending at the state level means roads and infrastructure goes untended, fire and police get paycuts while working more overtime, teachers get hiring freezes and no raises for years on end and less resources to handle more students, and many other state workers get furloughed which basically translates into unpaid days off with the same workload for less pay.

It is nice to say cut spending, but the institutions I have seen are already cut to the bone. It is not a solution to lower sales taxes when in one quarter, state revenues are dropping by as much as 12%.

[Guest Bluemax]

If you don't mind me asking...what was the make and model of the guns you purchased ?

[9teeneleven]

Just purchased one, a Sig P220 for $816 shipped. The other thing was for that price I got night sights. None of the local ones I looked at had them with night sights.

[Guest jos2f]

Sadly, this concept of buying online vs in store applied to more than just guns. On a $1000 puchase, the tax alone is almost a hundred dollars. I don't think there is even that much margin in a gun, so I do feel bad for the local guy who loses because of sales tax.

Buying used guns locally is almost always better than online since you can see it/inspect it/ try to get full history on it.

[Smith]

Let me throw one example out. I am paid by the state. In a time of recession, our demand grows 30-40%, yet our budget for this year just lost 30%.

Cutting spending at the state level means roads and infrastructure goes untended, fire and police get paycuts while working more overtime, teachers get hiring freezes and no raises for years on end and less resources to handle more students, and many other state workers get furloughed which basically translates into unpaid days off with the same workload for less pay.

It is nice to say cut spending, but the institutions I have seen are already cut to the bone. It is not a solution to lower sales taxes when in one quarter, state revenues are dropping by as much as 12%.

Lower taxes mean MORE revenue for the state, not the other way around. It is that kind of government thinking that is leading us to Socialism. The more money in my pockets the more products we can spend it on = more tax revenue.

Maybe those "underpaid" government teachers need to bone up on their economics and actually teach. Then they would have the resources they say they need. Of course it always amazes me how generations past invented such amazing things when teachers had next to no "resources". Teaches of today have access to nearly anything available and large percentages of students graduate and can't read.

[TripleDigitRide]

This isn't going on only with gun dealers. People deal with the same issue when it comes to so many products these days. Times have changed, and store owners must adapt if they expect to continue to thrive into the future.

Bud's Gun Shop has it figured out, as far as I'm concerned. Not only do they have a retail store, but they also know that times have changed, and to be competitive they had to think outside the box. Problem with many local dealers is, what once was outside the box is, now inside the box.

Bud's and similar online stores didn't become what they are today because they decided to continue operations as if their Grandfather was still running things. They realized it was time to change with the world around them.

If you know what you want, shopping online can often be so much cheaper, but what I really like is, it's often so much easier. One of the problems I continue to have with local gun dealers is, they have made a habit of not advertising their lowest price. I'm (and obviously many, many others) looking for the best possible deal, but if we were interested in haggling over the price, we'd be visiting a flea market or yard sale. It's as if the local dealers are looking for the sucker who's going to walk in and willingly fork over the maked price, because they don't realize they can get it cheaper.

When dealing with places like Bud's, you know what their bottom dollar is, and it's often cheaper than what the local shops have their items listed for. And not just because you're not paying taxes at the time of the purchase. I've found several items at places like Bud's that were much cheaper, even before you figure the taxes. So it's not just a tax thing.

I often hear folks talk about dealing with a local deal for a period of time, and eventually you'll get the better deals. So, what they are saying is, we expect you to pay higher prices until we feel you are worthy of our actual pricing. Face it, you're hardly getting some amazing deal, because it's not like local dealers are going to lose money just because you've purchased from them a few times in the past. You're simply getting the price that you should have been getting all along. Maybe they'll be willing to make a little less, but because the mark-up on guns isn't usually a huge amount, the deal you get can only be so good. Often times, you could have bought the same thing for their amazing price from someone else with a whole lot BS.

Bottom line, people in general have become lazy, and that includes their shopping habits. And with the economay as it is today, more and more people are being forced to become price shoppers. A great majority of people want the best deal they can find, as hassle-free as possible. Unfortunately, most local dealers don't fit the needs and wants of todays American people. The fact that countless online stores like Bud's are thriving should be proof enough.

[Electric B]

^^^^^^^^^

+1

I never have felt bad for saving money.

[JeffsSig]

T D R for Prezzzz.......................!

[TripleDigitRide]

^^^^^^^^^

+1

I never have felt bad for saving money.

T D R for Prezzzz.......................!

Not so fast!

I'm sure there are plenty who would not agree with me on this. Only calling it how I see it.

[9teeneleven]

Lower taxes mean MORE revenue for the state, not the other way around. It is that kind of government thinking that is leading us to Socialism. The more money in my pockets the more products we can spend it on = more tax revenue.

Maybe those "underpaid" government teachers need to bone up on their economics and actually teach. Then they would have the resources they say they need. Of course it always amazes me how generations past invented such amazing things when teachers had next to no "resources". Teaches of today have access to nearly anything available and large percentages of students graduate and can't read.

For certain, there is a balance between when sales tax is an effective form of revenue, and when it begins to stifle economic activity, but what data do you have to suggest that we are over that threshold. I am not an economist, and would love some hard numbers on this. I do, however, find blanket arguments that lower taxes stimulate growth problematic. If sales tax were 1%, plenty of people would still argue that it should be lower. Problem is then, the state has no revenue stream. There is a difference between limited government and no government. Those who want no government should move to Somalia. They won't get a government tax there, but you will pay in plenty of other ways.

As far as education goes, when those "resources" are seats in a classroom, then I agree, if there are less students in classroom then teachers can better teach. However, when there are overcrowded classes with student to teacher ratios often exceeding 4 times the ratio deemed necessary to have an effective classroom and offer effective instruction, then no. The problem is not just that funding is going down, enrollment is going up, and overcrowding is the norm. But we are off topic.

[9teeneleven]

This isn't going on only with gun dealers. People deal with the same issue when it comes to so many products these days. Times have changed, and store owners must adapt if they expect to continue to thrive into the future.

Bud's Gun Shop has it figured out, as far as I'm concerned. Not only do they have a retail store, but they also know that times have changed, and to be competitive they had to think outside the box. Problem with many local dealers is, what once was outside the box is, now inside the box.

Bud's and similar online stores didn't become what they are today because they decided to continue operations as if their Grandfather was still running things. They realized it was time to change with the world around them.

If you know what you want, shopping online can often be so much cheaper, but what I really like is, it's often so much easier. One of the problems I continue to have with local gun dealers is, they have made a habit of not advertising their lowest price. I'm (and obviously many, many others) looking for the best possible deal, but if we were interested in haggling over the price, we'd be visiting a flea market or yard sale. It's as if the local dealers are looking for the sucker who's going to walk in and willingly fork over the maked price, because they don't realize they can get it cheaper.

When dealing with places like Bud's, you know what their bottom dollar is, and it's often cheaper than what the local shops have their items listed for. And not just because you're not paying taxes at the time of the purchase. I've found several items at places like Bud's that were much cheaper, even before you figure the taxes. So it's not just a tax thing.

I often hear folks talk about dealing with a local deal for a period of time, and eventually you'll get the better deals. So, what they are saying is, we expect you to pay higher prices until we feel you are worthy of our actual pricing. Face it, you're hardly getting some amazing deal, because it's not like local dealers are going to lose money just because you've purchased from them a few times in the past. You're simply getting the price that you should have been getting all along. Maybe they'll be willing to make a little less, but because the mark-up on guns isn't usually a huge amount, the deal you get can only be so good. Often times, you could have bought the same thing for their amazing price from someone else with a whole lot BS.

Bottom line, people in general have become lazy, and that includes their shopping habits. And with the economay as it is today, more and more people are being forced to become price shoppers. A great majority of people want the best deal they can find, as hassle-free as possible. Unfortunately, most local dealers don't fit the needs and wants of todays American people. The fact that countless online stores like Bud's are thriving should be proof enough.

Well put, and of course, it was Bud's that I bought from. One thing to consider though is that the pre-Internet gun market could carry thousands of dealers nationwide. How many Budsgunshops can the Internet-age market bear. Maybe a handful. It is the Wal-mart effect. When we the consumers save money in the short run, I just wonder what the effect will be when the consumer economy consists of only a few centralized retailers. How does that effect local economies?

[Guest m&pc9]

Mrnick if you dont mind a little drive up to Johnson City you might want to try Tricities gun shop. I have went up there and bought 2 guns 2 different times from them and the prices were real close to Buds. And the dealers in Ktown were about 20% higher. Tricities gun shop help support this site and Brian and Tom are good people. My nephew had some trouble with a gun he bought online so now he is stuck dealing with it by himself. If you buy locally the shop will help out if you have trouble with the gun.

[TripleDigitRide]

Well put, and of course, it was Bud's that I bought from. One thing to consider though is that the pre-Internet gun market could carry thousands of dealers nationwide. How many Budsgunshops can the Internet-age market bear. Maybe a handful. It is the Wal-mart effect. When we the consumers save money in the short run, I just wonder what the effect will be when the consumer economy consists of only a few centralized retailers. How does that effect local economies?

If others were willing to adapt and operate like Wal-Mart and Bud's Gun Shop, Wal-Mart and Bud's Gun Shop wouldn't have control over so much of the marketplace. The playing field would then be a little more level.

As I said earlier, most current store owners can not operate their business as their Grandfather did.

I've been known to criticize Wal-Mart more than a few times, but people tend to forget, Wal-Mart didn't simply appear out of thin-air, making over 400 Billion dollars per year. Wal-Mart started out as a little Mom and Pop store (Walton's Five and Dime) just like many of our local retailers. Difference is, Sam Walton had vision. That vision was as simple as marking up his products slightly less than most competitors. Damn, that must have taken all of two brain cells to figure out.

What a surprise, even 60-years-ago people were concerned about saving a little money. People interested in the best deal they could find started shopping with Sam Walton all those years ago, and for some strange reason, some people wonder why all-of-a-sudden everyone became cheap bastards and price shoppers.

Edited July 26, 2009 by TripleDigitRide

[9teeneleven]

If others were willing to adapt and operate like Wal-Mart and Bud's Gun Shop, Wal-Mart and Bud's Gun Shop wouldn't have control over so much of the marketplace. The playing field would then be a little more level.

As I said earlier, most current store owners can not operate their business as their Grandfather did.

I've been known to criticize Wal-Mart more than a few times, but people tend to forget, Wal-Mart didn't simply appear out of thin-air, making over 400 Billion dollars per year. Wal-Mart started out as a little Mom and Pop store (Walton's Five and Dime) just like many of our local retailers. Difference is, Sam Walton had vision. That vision was as simple as marking up his products slightly less than most competitors. Damn, that must have taken all of two brain cells to figure out.

What a surprise, even 60-years-ago people were concerned about saving a little money. People interested in the best deal they could find started shopping with Sam Walton all those years ago, and for some strange reason, some people wonder why all-of-a-sudden everyone became cheap bastards and price shoppers.

I agree, but we've also seen that once someone reaches walmart status, there is not much room for more than a handfun of real competitors. I guess one solution is to go niche. I've seen this in the guitar market. There were in the 90s 4-5 giant retail guitar chains. The market really showed it would only bear one. However, there are lots of thriving niche shops on the web that cater to a more focused market, rather than the catch all market that Guitar Center/ Musician's Friend has cornered. Even the local stores have had to go niche to survive, many focusing on doing lessons, and selling gear that will cater to the lessons crowd. You can't go into a local guitar store and find the variety that you could 20 years ago.