Cowboy Loads in .357 and .38 - Yow! ??

[Oh Shoot]

Bought some .357 mag and .38 special cowboy loads couple of gun shows ago from Georgia Arms. Both are round nose flat point lead bullets, 158 gr.

I knew they were low powered (they both claim only 800 fps). I'd been shooting them in my new Marlin 1894 some, and able to hit paper plate hand held at 50 yards about half the time hand held, and most all the time steadied (this with open sights).

Well, just so happened that last Sat with the boys, I had gone over to the pistol range and fired a few chambers' worth through my SP101 and I couldn't even HIT the pie plate at 10 yards maybe 1 out of 5 times! Was shooting with BlackBeltChick and we had sort of intervened over there, so didn't stay long enough to really suss it out. I shot a quick mag through my XD SC from same place and they were all grouped pretty nicely, just to prove I hadn't gone blind or something. So I didn't get to shot it anymore to really suss things out until today.

So, sure enough, 10 yards, I finally put a big target up, start shooting the cowboy loads, and sure enough, they are all over the place. I mean, we're talking a FOOT or more from 10 yards! At random. High, low, left, right, whatever. I even used a monopod to rest barrel on and couldn't get two shots in a row anyway near each other.

So, an older (than even me) guy comes up and says whatcha testing and such, and says that yeah, cowboy loads do indeed go all over the place, and especially with a short barrel (my Ruger is 2 3/4") there's no telling where they'll hit.

Sure enough, I hadn't shot the .357 Golden Sabers I leave it loaded with, and bingo, all were adequate toward plate center. Same with some WWB .38 I also had.

So, long story short (too late), any of you folks noticed very decided inaccuracy from cowboy loads? I can't imagine what you could do to load a cartridge to MAKE it that bad?

Or maybe they do okay enough with longer barreled revolvers that the cowboy shooters use? I don't really know anything about the size targets they use during competitions or anything.

- OS

[Garufa]

I reckon the cowboy loads use a slower burning powder. That coupled with the heavy lead would cause considerable inaccuracy in a snubbie.

In your repating rifle gun that powder has a chance to burn the way it should. Therefore, the projectile has the necessary energy to do its thing.

Just my theory...

[56FordGuy]

Thus far, my favorite loads for my 642 are the MagTech 158 grain cowboy loads. Standing at about 10 yards, I can put 5 of them into a 2" or so group. Haven't tried any other commercial cowboy loads though.

[strickj]

able to hit paper plate hand held at 50 yards about half the time hand held, and most all the time steadied (this with open sights).

- OS

Who was holding the paper plate?

[Oh Shoot]

Who was holding the paper plate?

Some of the folks who show up at the Norris range ain't the brightest.

(good catch )

- OS

[Mike.357]

I ain't holding that plate anymore, its a wonder you have not shot me yet. Then I could change my name to "Ohshot"

I have used Ga Arms cowboy loads out of my converted '58 Remington. They suck.

Cowboy loads from Winchester and Goex worked fine. Accuracy was acceptable.

Don't know the difference.

[I_Like_Pie]

Actually low powered .38 special loads have been used for a century now as the most inherently accurate pistol rounds you can get.

Most of the time they are 148 or 100 grain double ended wadcutters with 2.5-3 grains of bullseye. They are pushing less than 10,000 psi and only moving about 600 fps. Out of "test" barrels on a vice rest one can pile literally hundreds of them through one .358 hole at 50 yards.

Basically what I am saying is that there is something else causing your problems...that combination is one of the most accurate of any straight walled cartridge....if all other factors are controlled. could be crappy ammo, wrong size bullets from the manf, or they are cast wrong/out of balance.

If they are casting them quick or they have other problems with the casting process they could simply be bad bullets. if they are not symmetrical in weight due to air bubbles or deformities unseen because they are hidden by the casing you will have accuracy problems.

Edited July 24, 2009 by I_Like_Pie

[glockster157]

Just curious to know if they are keyholing at all. Sounds like a instability problem. If the bullet is long and the velocity is low, with a slow twist, the bullet will not be stable and knuckle ball or yaw when it leaves the barrel. the longer barrels of SA revolvers and lever guns could get the velocity up or there rifling may be deeper...Like I said, just curious.

[Oh Shoot]

oops, dupe. Turned into newbie again or something.

Edited July 24, 2009 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

Just curious to know if they are keyholing at all. ...

Nope, no elongated holes.

Front sight on gun not bent, there is no rear sight on SP101, just groove in top of frame. Barrel not particular fouled.

Pretty much same random inaccuracy with the .357 and .38.

I'm going to try them one more time, with really controlled test using monopod again next time at the range. With another person to witness and shoot also. If it's still as wild as previous experience, maybe I'll send a couple of cylinders' worth to 56FordGuy, let him try them.

I don't have a huge number of them, maybe 100 or so .357 left, and 250 .38, so it's not a huge concern all in all, I guess. Just never quite seen anything so drastic as this.

- OS

Edited July 24, 2009 by OhShoot

[56FordGuy]

If it's still as wild as previous experience, maybe I'll send a couple of cylinders' worth to 56FordGuy, let him try them.

I'm up to give it a shot! They're bound to be more accurate than some of my .38 reloads. I think I've got it figured out now, but that's a story in itself.

[Mike.357]

i can vouch for OS's cowboy load troubles. He is all over the map with them. But shoots the eyes out of stuff using WWB's.

I know dang well it is not a SP101 issue, thats one heck of a wheel gun.

[Oh Shoot]

I'm up to give it a shot! They're bound to be more accurate than some of my .38 reloads. :P I think I've got it figured out now, but that's a story in itself.

Yah, been reading your thread on that...

Mine don't seem to be tumbling though, just seems like they have their own little random guidance programs built in.

I'm guessing that Garufa may be closest though...the powder may be slow burning enough that maybe it isn't even burning evenly or something, more pressure on one side of projectile as it leaves the 2.25" barrel? I haven't noticed any big flames out of it though.

They really do seem to be okay out of the lever rifle. I don't have a longer barrel wheelie to test in.

- OS

Edited July 25, 2009 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

... But shoots the eyes out of stuff using WWB's.

..

Well, THAT'S an exaggeration, but thanks.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Okay, so today I shot the .357 Georgia Arms Cowboy loads. They are 158 gr., roundnose flat point bullets, claim 800 fps.

Shooting at a 9" paper plate at 10 yards with Ruger SP101 with 2 1/4" barrel.

I used monopod to brace my hands, to take as much of "me" out of it as possible.

Shot 15 rounds and maybe 1/3 of them even hit the plate. The ones that did were all over it, no rhyme or reason.

Shot 5 Hornady .357 Leverevolutions same way, all in plate, mostly toward the center. Also shot 10 or more WWB .38 special, all plenty good enough.

Shot 9 of same Georgia Arms .357 loads in Marlin 1894 at same size plate at 50 yards using dinky plastic bipod. 9 of 10 on plate. Shot 5 more handheld, 4 on plate. Both sets with open sights, and the front sight covers most of the whole plate at that distance.

Soooo ... seems obvious to moi that the powder in these things is really slow burning and not just slow, uneven, and somehow that causes the bullet to emerge with uneven force around it or somesuch, flinging it in random directions. Ruger was really black after the cowboy loads ... shooting the factory stuff actually cleaned it up some.

Obviously, the 18.5" of rifle barrel stabilizes everything.

There's probably a minimum pistol barrel length that would make a big diff.

Maybe just 4 5/8" of the generally minimum western style barrel is enough, and I'm guessing that a lot of the cowboy action shooters may use 6 inchers or longer?

I meant to do same test with the .38 cowboy loads but forgot, but will next time. They DO fire with plenty good enough accuracy from the Marlin.

- OS

Edited August 2, 2009 by OhShoot