Took a Force on Force class last weekend

[Guest Phantom6]

All I have is a half a 5th of Jack, sugar, vanilla, eggs, salt, and flour; guess I will have to settle for a Jack and coke!

Jack and Coke? Blah! Daddy always told me not to ever mix good whiskey with water or soft drinks... lessen' youre out of good whiskey. If you have Jack, you shure ain't out of good whiskey and I always listened to what ol' dad told me. Well ,except for the warnings about the young "ladies" in Luang Prabang but what could a young man say when a few Kip bought a whole weekend of 'happy endings'?

[Guest samueld308]

You guys are all out of your minds.... cake is where its at!!!

DanO

I'm glad most of TGO supports my side in the age old battle, PIE vs. cake.

Long live PIE. Down with cake.

[Branket]

How has no one mentioned fruit pies?

Cherry is my favorite.

[towerclimber37]

JWell ,except for the warnings about the young "ladies" in Luang Prabang but what could a young man say when a few Kip bought a whole weekend of 'happy endings'?

you say are You hungly? want some flied lice?

[Marswolf]

Oh, I too have the most respect for Mars. So do most of the people that know him personally. Librarian or not!!!

BTW, I caught the "librarian" reference. Just didn't mention it in the heat of battle.

Actually, I retired from the library board. I'm about to resign from the cemetery board and then I won't belong to any civic groups or public boards.

Incidentally, I'm sorry Titan Scout left. I was looking over at the GetOffTheX board and Titan started a thread about how much he hated Michael Vick. We certainly agree about that.

[TGO David]

Tungsten,

Thank you. I'll keep looking.

skwirl

Good luck with your search and keep us posted on what you find. If you take a class at Tactical Response, we'd like to hear about that too contrary to how it might look. We'd just prefer a thoughtfully written after action report rather than something that reads like a foaming-at-the-mouth infomercial.

[DaveTN]

I don’t know who these guys are or what happened in Iraq. But this shows that they are totally clueless about civilian law and how to handle the aftermath of a shooting.

17. Police are human, they can re-word what you've said and it can sound real bad later.

18. Police can lie to fire you up in the hopes you will talk.

19. Once you start talking, it's hard to stop.

20. The desire to explain your actions and prove you are a good guy is simply overwhelming.

21. Don't say **** after the fight. STFU

If you have a bad or questionable shooting; then yes keep your mouth shut and tell them you would like to call your lawyer. But you better have the number of a lawyer and he better be able to get there right away. Because without your side of what took place the chances are high that you are going to find yourself in jail.

If I just killed a guy and I am clear in my mind that it was a good shoot; I’ll be dammed if I’m going to alienate the responding and investigating Officers. There is nothing wrong with calling an attorney if you like; but if you are going to play that card, make sure you have a phone number for your attorney where you can get him in the middle of the night to come to the scene. (A call to your divorce or tax attorney is not the call you want to be making at this time.)

This is why I have said before that a carry class should include someone from the States Attorneys Office in your County. If I have questions about law I don’t want to hear the opinions of Rambo wanna be’s, NRA trained instructors, Cops or even someone that slept at a Holiday Inn last night. I want the opinion of someone that works in the office that will be making the decision of whether or not I am charged with a crime.

As a former cop this is just common sense to me. I see that many of you here have some kind of instructor title in your sigs, have you tried to do this? Is the problem that they will not come?

22. Yeager would make a great prosecutor.

Is Yeager a criminal lawyer where you reside? If not why not get your info from the real deal?

On a different note… Don’t run off and hide; you obviously have something to offer. If you posted what you did just to share your expeience with others; that’s good. It sounds like some of them have some information that you may not have known.

If you posted as a plug for their training… well that didn’t go so well; did it?

Good luck.

[Guest Tommy Ferguson Jr.]

Well..here goes.

This thread and what it degenerated into are the reason I stopped coming to this forum. I did today and I'm kinda sorry I did - but I'll keep coming to see what people are saying.

I know James and many of the instructors at Tactical Response. I call them friends even though we don't see each other very often - knee surgery will do that to you.

I am SO GLAD that we have wise people here who have been tested in battle and life and never made any mistakes; never even done ANYTHING that ANYONE would consider a mistake. I can't include myself in that group; the gunfight I was in lost me a lot of friends, respect, career opportunities, etc. When I met James and the group of instructors at Tactical Response, they welcomed me with open arms, pointed out mistakes I was making in training, and gave me an honest AAR of my incident when it happened. This was long before 9/11, so it's not like his trip to Iraq changed his character.

I've seen the video of the ERSM ambush on the highway. I've read AARs from James and other people. James said several times, "I ****ed up". If he feels like he did, MAYBE he learned something he can pass on to me or others.

He doesn't need me to defend him. His company has a full schedule of sold-out classes, so there are lots of people who can do that more eloquently than me.

I have taken classes from Tactical Response, and they've hosted other instructors with "baggage" - Suarez, Stanford, et al. I've attended their training as well. I'll go back again when I'm healed up.

There's my .02. Using my real name. I have nothing else to say, except - unlike other people, I won't talk smack about people (even if it is just their screen name) that I HAVEN'T EVEN MET.

[TGO David]

For what it's worth, Tommy... that is one of the better articulated responses to this thread in favor of Tactical Response that I have seen yet. I hope you keep visiting and participating when you can.

[Marswolf]

I agree. The most reasoned response I've seen about Yeager.

[Guest JPH]

Having reviewed this thread and the link to the incident I am having trouble seeing Yeager’s “cowardnessâ€. There seems to be a very strong feeling here and I can understand that but I also feel the feelings must be based on un-defendable acts and facts. Having served in Viet Nam I can tell you when I returned home, as well as with many returning vets, we were made to feel our service was dumb and worthless. Having earned the bronze star twice in Nam I was sadden to be put down so hard for having given so much.

The video shows Yeager re-positioning him self as he stated in his after action report but was this really leaving a brother behind – that said I would have major trouble if I thought he had done that but where is the proof of this “running away†- This act of running away would be hard to prove via the video and a run of 40 feet seems a bit short when he could have slid further away into the bottom of the ditch if he was so afraid – cowards do not expose them selves at all –

When he “left†the vehicle he left a “medic†there with the wounded comrade. This wounded comrade was returning fire – I would think because the vehicle provides poor cover his movement to supply covering fire would be a proper maneuver with the stated protocols and, if nothing else, the move did widen the fire zone.

Engine blocks and tires provide such poor cover because of the exposure above the engine block as we all know (air filters and air space is not going to stop a MG) - The video did show his initial firing by the vehicle then after his repositioning his cover fire and his popping smoke – hardly the acts of a coward

Granted the botched activity with the car out of gear thing was not good but most SUV’s I am familiar with are automatics – I think most of us here know when the adrenalin kicks in on such a high level the actions are not always so carefully thought out and reactions based on familiarity is more common reactions. Yeager’s first reaction could be and should be understood in this context I would believe

As it turned out if he would have driven off he would have left the other cars behind him and in a worse situation – the second car was disabled – the abandoning of the vehicles and returning fire did help their situation not hurt it – if the initial fire, as stated in the AAR, caused the hits to the wounded personal then the return fire, however effective and accurate should be credited with the withdrawing of the MG’s I would think.

I’m not sure about the blaming the “other guys†thing but having read Yeager’s AAR I think the Mission Commander’s (MC) firing his weapon to warn off the approaching rear cars was not a blame game thing nor was the confusion of communication. So I may be missing some information here. If the MC did not fire his weapon before the contact and Yeager was lying then I failed to see the reference to that so…

Now do not think I am here to “defend†Yeager – I am not – I do not know the man nor am I one of the inner circle of friends – I am writing this because of my opinions and observations based on the attached site I found on this thread – I realize I probably will come under fire but I have been there before – I will hope for open dialog but I must say from the facts shown I am at a loss to see this condemnation of another mans service –

I can only hope none of you go through what this man has been immersed in – he will take this to his grave wither he deserves it or not – I would also say as well as I will and my brothers who received such judgment and put downs from the eyes and mouths of those who did not really understand and from those who did not serve -

What am I missing here

[Guest JPH]

Thank you for saying – this has taken me further and I thank you for that – I will say James is a bit forthwith and I think that does not need to be said

I guess the action itself and the history I have felt in my past was the root of my feelings here – what was said and reported later is what it is but the action on the field seemed a bit harsh

Thanks again

[Marswolf]

So that's my understanding of why he isn't well liked among certain professional circles. Not because he screwed up, but because he tried to portray it differently at the expense of others' reputations.

Precisely. He can be forgiven for his cowardice. But I'm not willing to forgive him for pretending he did the right thing. He didn't and professionals currently in the field I've talked to see it as I do to a man.

BTW JPH, I'm a year younger than you and a Vietnam vet. But I've had a lot of action since then too. I have never left a wounded buddy and never will. That is what Yeager did and the man died. Sorry you think that's OK to do that.

[Guest JPH]

Precisely. He can be forgiven for his cowardice. But I'm not willing to forgive him for pretending he did the right thing. He didn't and professionals currently in the field I've talked to see it as I do to a man.

BTW JPH, I'm a year younger than you and a Vietnam vet. But I've had a lot of action since then too. I have never left a wounded buddy and never will. That is what Yeager did and the man died. Sorry you think that's OK to do that.

thank you for your information sir -

I do not understand that at all – I will say there are contractors and seal team members who do not share that opinion – that being said I do not know anything about that on an official level so…

I do not think leaving a buddy behind is OK – the two bronze stars I earned was I the act of saving buddies – one was on a downed cobra and another was rescuing a buddy from a fire after an incident – note the cobra incident not another man helped me and there were more then a few available – yet I do not judge them because the chopper was about to blow or so it seemed at the time (it did not) – those guys did what they did and I chose to do what I did – I would never leave a buddy and I didn’t

That being said I felt James did not “leave†a buddy because in a situation like the one shown in the video – It showed him moving to another position while there was a Medic with his buddy – if the Medic was not there then you would have a very strong case in my opinion – when a man is shot should all involved rush to his aid or is one man to few? I know where you are coming from but in the situation shown I just do not see your viewpoint – in the case of the downed chopper above there was a great need for help – I got none and my back proves that point

I am sure you have seen many more combat scenes then me but because of our experiences or lack of them I do not think the video shows what you are saying – the after action stuff I do not contest but my opinions are just based on the web site you provided – do you have more on this? I would be interested

[Marswolf]

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree. What I saw was a guy run to the wrong location behind a vehicle under fire, leave a wounded man, and run across a road to hide in a ditch. I find nothing noble in that.

[Guest JPH]

With respect to you sir and I am not just saying that

The video shows a man re-positioning himself, not running away – if he popped smoke and did return what ever fire from that position he is not a coward

I guess the thing I am having a hard time over is the view point of his running away is not obvious – he did move and there was a MEDIC with the downed brother – if these things exist and they are apparent, then the view point must be from the after action activities

That is to say if James’ conduct that you have stated were as you stated then I think you are viewing the video from a bias – now I am not questioning your motives, service or character in any way but that is not enough to change the facts of the video –

What ever James did or say after the incident does not constitute cowardice – calling him a jerk, **** head or ass hole is OK by me but the guy deserves better than coward in the face of the enemy based solely on this video –

He said (AAR) and the video shows a re-deployment, the video shows a MEDIC was on the downed man, James said and the video shows him returning fire and popping smoke – now with those facts should any man’s reputation and service be maligned – My God I hope not because Audi Murphy ran from the front line to a disabled tank towards the rear and earned a CMH – what seems like running from a situation is not necessarily running from THE situation

Remember I did give you the “his conduct after the incident†thing sucked but there are many contractors (in better agency’s), military guys, law enforcement guys who know him very well, who have served in Iraq who do not agree with the cowardness thing – There may be many guys who hate Yeagar,s guts for good reason for all I know but the facts of the video do not support the “running away†Yeager is a coward thing

Call him an ass hole but don’t call him a coward that has not been proven

and thanks for listening with respect - I did not expect that but maybe this thread is not over - I do respect the you guys and wish to continue to learn and share

JPH

[Marswolf]

Well, I do find your analysis puzzling.

Actually, the term I usually use for Yeager is "blowhard", but the guys I've talked to in Baghdad have called him a laughingstock.

[Guest JPH]

well Marswolf there it is

yes we do disagree and I will say with a loud voice THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICE

thanks for listening and I’ll see you on other threads on this forum and I do look forward to it – I will also say I hope we disagree on many issues because that is how we learn -

JPH

[Guest Grizzly Johnson]

Well I may live in the Winchester area now, but I was born and raised in Camden. Yeager was always known to be an egotistical know-it-all smart ***. I have seen the store passing by but never knew that TR was so big into the training, nor did I know James had so much experience or that he was even in Iraq. I am a neutral party because I have no personal dealings with Yeager but it is amazing how such a small "retirement town" person could be know so far away!!!

[molonlabetn]

Well I may live in the Winchester area now, but I was born and raised in Camden. Yeager was always known to be an egotistical know-it-all smart ***. I have seen the store passing by but never knew that TR was so big into the training, nor did I know James had so much experience or that he was even in Iraq. I am a neutral party because I have no personal dealings with Yeager but it is amazing how such a small "retirement town" person could be know so far away!!!

I would be interested in hearing the point of view of a previous local... You'll hear from me.

[Guest JPH]

molonlabetn - I would be interested as well