Took a Force on Force class last weekend

[Marswolf]

There are some "topping-off" training schools. But they are generally for people who already have credentials and are mostly run by three-letter agencies or top military groups. Enrollment is pretty much invitation only and need driven.

Fort Bragg used to have a school run by SF people with some interesting credentials. Some of the instructors are pretty legendary in the profession of arms. It typically took "special" civilians who would be put in harms way and trained them to survive and be damn good at it as well as teaching some excellent killing skills. To a degree, it was only partly training. Much of it was weeding out people who couldn't cut it. The class with which I am familiar had 20 students who were put under a rather harsh training environment. Of the 20 who started, 6 completed the course.

There are rumors of some more schools like this operating out of military bases.

[creeky]

Who is this "James Yeager" that everyone is talking about?

... And what is this "Iraq" place? Nightclub in East Nashville?

Seems liek I hear a whole lot about that place lately ;P

[BimmerFreak]

You can probably learn something from most anything, this is true. Yes, there are some training schools designed to teach professionals the arts of war. They are mostly located in or run by military personnel, that being where the professional soldiers generally hang out. Civilians, both with and without a GS rating, are often included in military courses along with foreign nationals. The drop/failure rates are usually quite high for these folks unless they lower the course standards (a whole nother issue). I know they used to run some stuff at Ft. benning for pretty much anybody, but they ran afoul of the IG back during the Olly North thing...the infantry school probably has a detailed web page of its offerings, you might track that down. The marines do pretty much the same thing on the QT as the saying goes.

There are some places out there like this one here as well that specialize in providing military type instruction to civilians:

http://www.rcta.org/

You know, closer to home, try the KyARNG or the TnARNG. Seems like somebody on this board is an NCO in that reserve SF unit based down in montgomery al, the 20th i think it is. They used to hold some training stuff for cops, other military units, and even classes of caydets back in the day. I might start right there, or right here, whatever the case may be. I'm sure a senior NCO can hook you up with some POC's, as they say.

RCTA offers a broad and solid list of courses.

I have attended several, and highly recommend them to anyone that has the credentials to attend their training.

I am the senior NCO assigned to 20th Special Forces Group.

If someone is interested in joining, PM me and I can talk to you about getting an interview.

[molonlabetn]

The point of the matter is that the Iraq ambush should not be a negative influence in anyones decision on whether or not to spend money training with James. It does not

and should not negatively effect his credibility as a trainer.

If anyone feels that it does, then you're being too critical and too judgemental.

What it does show is that James was the only operator with the presence of

mind to get off the x and survive the ambush when bullets were zinging

through the unarmored vehicles that they were provided with. You can't

blame James for what other operators did or did not do. And I wouldn't

call it an inability to perform or an act of cowardism either. You might,

but I don't. As they say, opinions vary.

That said, every trainer has baggage in one form or another. If you're

looking for the pristine training guru, he doesn't exist. Nobody is

perfect. Sometimes you have to overlook a trainer's baggage, keep an

open mind and see what they have to offer to the table.

And that's all I'm going to say.

I see this smilie was appropriately added for just such an occasion...

Do you think that Jeffrey Skilling would make a good Business Ethics professor?

[Guest Mugster]

There are some "topping-off" training schools. But they are generally for people who already have credentials and are mostly run by three-letter agencies or top military groups. Enrollment is pretty much invitation only and need driven.

Fort Bragg used to have a school run by SF people with some interesting credentials. Some of the instructors are pretty legendary in the profession of arms. It typically took "special" civilians who would be put in harms way and trained them to survive and be damn good at it as well as teaching some excellent killing skills. To a degree, it was only partly training. Much of it was weeding out people who couldn't cut it. The class with which I am familiar had 20 students who were put under a rather harsh training environment. Of the 20 who started, 6 completed the course.

There are rumors of some more schools like this operating out of military bases.

Dunno. But, and this is mostly my opinion, the 3 letter agency types are mostly pencil pushers and computer operators. I'll take an honest platoon of goldbricking grunts any day.

What I do know is this. If you want to be a wolf, and run with the pack, they hang out at military bases all over the world. You are either in it and part of it, or your a low speed civilian type...sort of like I am now.

After reading about this guy Yeager for 15 minutes, I still have no opinion on him, really. He might make a pretty decent sheriff. I would think if we really wanted the iraqi bigwigs protected, we'd send in the first team. To me that is the secret service and possibly a platoon or 2 of grunts or MP's. Someone that has raised their right hand, and become an agent of the federal government, so help you God. Hiring a partially overweight civilian range instructor from tennessee and few ex-sheriffs deputies is sending in the second string. It would seem to the outsider that the performance was on par with the training and experience.

[Marswolf]

Dunno. But, and this is mostly my opinion, the 3 letter agency types are mostly pencil pushers and computer operators. I'll take an honest platoon of goldbricking grunts any day.

Nah, the three-letter utilities have some people who actually work too. But in the field, I'll take a good combat experienced Marine any day.

After reading about this guy Yeager for 15 minutes, I still have no opinion on him, really. He might make a pretty decent sheriff. I would think if we really wanted the iraqi bigwigs protected, we'd send in the first team. To me that is the secret service and possibly a platoon or 2 of grunts or MP's. Someone that has raised their right hand, and become an agent of the federal government, so help you God. Hiring a partially overweight civilian range instructor from tennessee and few ex-sheriffs deputies is sending in the second string. It would seem to the outsider that the performance was on par with the training and experience.

Just keep reading.... Yeager worked for a minor player in the contractor game. They really did not have proper equipment, but that's what you get when you work for a scrub team. They did a lot of escort for business people back and forth to and from the airport. He would never have been hired by the top folks in the business for reasons that are now painfully obvious.

And he did run for sheriff after this. Didn't get many votes though. I think he finished last in the vote count of five candidates.

[Guest Titan Scout]

What does your obsession with James Yeager have to do with my FOF Class?

If you believe FOF training is good, then it shouldn't matter who owns the company. My instructor, Shay VanVlyman is one of the best instructors I've ever had. Anywhere. I won't be back here so I'll give my creds now.

7 yrs active duty Army. ETS'd as a Captain. Pilot. UH-1H, OH-58C. Air Assault, Airborne. Aviation Officer Advanced Course. Masters Degree in HR, working on 2nd Masters now.

I was hoping this new site would be a place to discuss serious issues, forum dependent. Apparently, it's the same group of bitter dissatisfied losers as every other site.

I consider myself to be a very good judge of character. I don't associate with men of low moral bearing or integrity.

If you've never met James Yeager, you speak of him from a position of ignorance.

After knowing him for 3 years, I consider him my friend.

I will not post here again.

[Guest Titan Scout]

double post

[BimmerFreak]

What does your obsession with James Yeager have to do with my FOF Class?

If you believe FOF training is good, then it shouldn't matter who owns the company. My instructor, Shay VanVlyman is one of the best instructors I've ever had. Anywhere. I won't be back here so I'll give my creds now.

7 yrs active duty Army. ETS'd as a Captain. Pilot. UH-1H, OH-58C. Air Assault, Airborne. Aviation Officer Advanced Course. Masters Degree in HR, working on 2nd Masters now.

I was hoping this new site would be a place to discuss serious issues, forum dependent. Apparently, it's the same group of bitter dissatisfied losers as every other site.

I consider myself to be a very good judge of character. I don't associate with men of low moral bearing or integrity.

If you've never met James Yeager, you speak of him from a position of ignorance.

After knowing him for 3 years, I consider him my friend.

I will not post here again.

Im sorry to see you leave Captain.

You need to realize that someone that puts them self out there like James does, is going to draw fire and support from both sides.

If you want to pout and run off all butt hurt because some(most) members here dont subscribe to Yeager-worship, thats your choice.

It sounds like taking the low road.

Here are the facts:

James is controversial.

James has both haters and defenders.

James came on THIS VERY SITE and conducted himself like a complete ego-maniac and pissed a bunch of people off.

Regarding your recent FOF training:

Any and all training you receive is good.

The reason you continue to train is to experience new situations and scenarios that hopefully will cause you to make mistakes and force you to think about, rethink, and perhaps make changes to your TACSOP.

Regardless of how I (or anyone else) feels about the MAN, if his training allowed you to make changes to, or add to your personal fighting SOP, then the money was well spent.

I dont suggest taking ANY trainer's work or MOI as gospel.

Go. listen. Learn.

Apply what makes sense for YOU, and trash the rest.

Hope to see you stick around, but if not; thanks for your service in the Army and best wishes.

/Out

[Mike.357]

+1 to Tungston and Hero Gear.

And just because people do not agree with your opinions on someone is no reason to run off.

If disagreement was the case anyone with a Glock would have been run off by Mars long ago:stir: And Rabbi would have run everyone else off

[BimmerFreak]

+1 to Tungston and Hero Gear.

And just because people do not agree with your opinions on someone is no reason to run off.

If disagreement was the case anyone with a Glock would have been run off by Mars long ago:stir: And Rabbi would have run everyone else off

FOR SURE!

I can see it now....Mars and Rabbi sitting here all alone.

Mars trying to get Rabbi to see the glory of all things Glock....

Rabbi trying to convince Mars that if it were designed and or introduced after 1908, it isnt worth having.

[saintsfanbrian]

Joe, I think you got those two roles reversed, but basically the truth. Yeager did spout off like a spoiled little rich kid.

[Guest Hyaloid]

I like pumpkin pie

[Guest Phantom6]

What does your obsession with James Yeager have to do with my FOF Class?

If you believe FOF training is good, then it shouldn't matter who owns the company. My instructor, Shay VanVlyman is one of the best instructors I've ever had. Anywhere. I won't be back here so I'll give my creds now.

7 yrs active duty Army. ETS'd as a Captain. Pilot. UH-1H, OH-58C. Air Assault, Airborne. Aviation Officer Advanced Course. Masters Degree in HR, working on 2nd Masters now.

I was hoping this new site would be a place to discuss serious issues, forum dependent. Apparently, it's the same group of bitter dissatisfied losers as every other site.

I consider myself to be a very good judge of character. I don't associate with men of low moral bearing or integrity.

If you've never met James Yeager, you speak of him from a position of ignorance.

After knowing him for 3 years, I consider him my friend.

I will not post here again.

Guess he learned his lessons from Mr. Yeager well.

[Marswolf]

Any and all training you receive is good.

I'd say that any good training is good. If it's bad or stupid training, it's bad.

7 yrs active duty Army. ETS'd as a Captain. Pilot. UH-1H, OH-58C. Air Assault, Airborne. Aviation Officer Advanced Course. Masters Degree in HR, working on 2nd Masters now.

Titan, thank you for your service. You should know by now that I one of the biggest boosters of military service here on the board.

Your first post here on TGO told us of your service. It also told us:

Took the Tactical Response Fighting Pistol course and got my Mindset right.

Love to train, have also taken the Fighting Rifle twice.

Next class will be the Tactical Response 2 day precision Rifle class in late March. Also need Immediate Action Medical. I figure if I have the mindset to take a life in defense of my own....I should be able to save a life as well.

Almost all of your few posts on TGO mention Tactical Response. I believe you. You are one of those people who just love to train. Fine, it's your money.

But I don't think you are going to find many combat veterans, or other military people who will have a warm and fuzzy feeling about a guy who hides to protect himself while his compatriots are getting shot up. I know you weren't a ground pounder, but still, your attitude amazes me. If Yeager is your friend, then I think your loyalty is grossly misplaced.

I'm sorry you are going. I'm also sorry you can't see the truth about Yeager.

[Rightwinger]

What does your obsession with James Yeager have to do with my FOF Class?

If you believe FOF training is good, then it shouldn't matter who owns the company. My instructor, Shay VanVlyman is one of the best instructors I've ever had. Anywhere. I won't be back here so I'll give my creds now.

7 yrs active duty Army. ETS'd as a Captain. Pilot. UH-1H, OH-58C. Air Assault, Airborne. Aviation Officer Advanced Course. Masters Degree in HR, working on 2nd Masters now.

I was hoping this new site would be a place to discuss serious issues, forum dependent. Apparently, it's the same group of bitter dissatisfied losers as every other site.

I consider myself to be a very good judge of character. I don't associate with men of low moral bearing or integrity.

If you've never met James Yeager, you speak of him from a position of ignorance.

After knowing him for 3 years, I consider him my friend.

I will not post here again.

Get to know us for 3 years....maybe you'll consider some of us friends.

Ex Army 25C (communications) that never spent a day in a Signal unit, FA, MI (ABN) and then Combat Engineer (ABN). Got out after 4.5 years as 1LT on the Cpts list, those are my creds and I still don't like what I have seen or heard about Yeager. What your creds and who you like have to do with one another I don't know but I figured you have to post them to have a respectable post.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming....I like Pie too!

[Guest Ramtough47]

marswolf i repect your service to our country.

Now then can i ask you where you are getting this "running away" stuff you are talking about?

Have you seen the video of the ambush? I have.

It clearly shows Yeager rolling out of the car and returning fire,then when his backseat gunner comes out and starts laying down fire Yeager breaks to another postion and lays down fire and throws smoke.

Are you calling this "running away"?

If you are caught in a ambush do you just stay still,don't move,maybe they will quit shooting at us.

I have been told that Yeager group had talked and pre-planned this exact type of situation and if it occured that whoever could start laying down suppresive fire would do so until other's joined in that that person would break and set up a second postion,and so-forth and so-forth until they were out or off the X.Yeager was doing exactly that.3 of his team were hit and there is NOTHING that any of them could have done at the moment of contact to stop that.

look dude i am no expert,but i got eyes and i have seen the video and i have talked with army personnel as well as other contractors and they all say the same thing,Yeager was not at fault here and once action was initated he responded the right way.Oh yeah one other thing,and this is important,everyone i have talked to or read their comments about this incident have said "i wasn't there i am not going to judge him and his actions"

For some reason you and several others have decided to do this.

Tactical Response is a excellent organization and Yeager is one of the reasons.He surronds himself with very good people who i belive would not be there if they had any doubt in Yeager abilities.Yeager has many haters, but he has a Army of loyal followers who reconize his interigity,honor, commitment to excellence and a heart bigger than most.

Lets not turn this forum into a finger pointing,name calling place where no one learns anything.

[Marswolf]

Get to know us for 3 years....maybe you'll consider some of us friends.

Yeah, we'll be your friend even if you don't give us money.

I like pie as well.

[Marswolf]

marswolf i repect your service to our country.

Now then can i ask you where you are getting this "running away" stuff you are talking about?

Have you seen the video of the ambush? I have.

Yeah, I've seen the video dozens of times. I have a copy on my computer. What I saw was Yeager run to the wrong location behind the vehicle, fire a few times, then run across the road leaving the wounded to protect himself. As Ayn Rand said, "A=A." I don't think there is any reasonable alternative to that interpretation.

As I have said, I've talked to people in Baghdad about this and they have seen the video too. We are in agreement about what is obviously happening. Sorry you can't see that.

I suspect that TR has a number of good people. They should ditch Yeager and start a training outfit with someone as the head who isn't a buffoon.

[BimmerFreak]

Lets not turn this forum into a finger pointing,name calling place where no one learns anything.

+1

Allowing ourselves or this board to be sucked into the TR/JY controversy only brings us down.

Suggestion:

If James comes on here and spouts off like in the past, lets deal with him directly.

If not, then we should let sleeping dogs lie.

There are plenty of anti-JY websites and postings out there.

I dont think we need to waste our time with him.

If we stop talking about him, perhaps the TR/JY fanboys will stop feeling the need to rush to his defense and clutter this board.

[Marswolf]

If James comes on here and spouts off like in the past, lets deal with him directly.

If not, then we should let sleeping dogs lie.

Fair enough, but I'm not going to just hold my tongue any more if someone comes on here telling what a wonderful guy that cowardly POS is. I didn't start this thread.

[skwirl]

Can someone please recommend a reputible instructor for force on force training near the Tennessee area? I don't want to waste my time and money learning the wrong way, or under the instruction of a less than honorable person.

skwirl

[BimmerFreak]

I'd say that any good training is good. If it's bad or stupid training, it's bad.

ANY training (*yes, even bad training) is good if you allow yourself to view each event as an opportunity to learn from what went right, and what went wrong. Repeat want made sense and went well. Make sure you dont repeat what went wrong.

Im not telling someone to take every stitch of training as gospel and apply it word for word.

If you are being instructed in something that is completely contrary to what you have taught in the past, thats not such a bad thing. There may be some good stuff in there.

Its YOUR responsibility to decide if any or all what is being presented to you makes sense, and has a place in your personal collection of TTPs. (Training Tactics and Procedures for you non-Army types)

**off topic a bit, but it drives my point home (at least to me)

I learned more about leadership from my worst squadleader than I ever learned at PLDC (and BNCOC, ANCOC, ISG Course)

I had this squadleader named SSG Doug Smith.

I hated this man with all my heart.

He represented the worse type of leader: selfish, zero integrity, led from the rear, do as I say- not as I do, lied, cheated, im sure stole...you get the point.

As a young private through corporal, I loathed this man.

But funny thing; I allowed myself to learn from this man.

What did I learn? exactly how NOT to be a leader.

I spent the first 2 years of my Army career storing all of this "how not to be a douche bag" away in my head.

I have literally spent every day of my career trying to not be like Doug.

When I was faced with a character or moral decision, I would think about how Doug would have handled the situation.

I then did the exact opposite.

I have factored every decision I have made while in the Army on "what would Doug do?"

So yes, you CAN learn from bad training and leadership.

[DBTN]

You have all brought yourselves down with your less than mature babble.

If anyone is interested in good force on force training in TN, I would recommend Tactical Response.

[Guest 0down]

How did this thread go from "I took a class and here is what I learned" to an armed chair commando analysis of some event in which no one here has direct knowledge?

Is this what this site has come to? Name calling, second guessing and sarcastic remarks based on rumor, third or forth hand information, and a grainy internet video from one day in Iraq years ago. "I would have...", "He should have..."

To those that have served in combat, my deepest heartfelt gratitude. But this is how you use those skills forged in training and honed in combat? On this? Second guessing a civilian contractor for a single event that took place in the fog of war several years ago? Really?

Maybe Yeager screwed up, maybe he didn't, I don't know I wasn't there. I don't know the totality of the circumstances, and neither do you.

I am not defending Yeager, he can do that himself if he wants. But I am criticizing TGO. You people are better than this.

*I have taken one of Yeagers classes and it was a good product at a fair price. That is the extent of my bias.