Home shotgun recommendation?

[Guest bkelm18]

Keep an eye out for beat up used ones. I got a Mossy 500 12ga off of GunBroker for I think $120. Stock was pretty messed up and the finish on the metal left much to be desired. I refinished the wood with a nice red oak stain and semi-gloss poly, looks pretty damn good. Not too worried about the metal but someday I might refinish it. Still goes bang when you pull the trigger.

[Oh Shoot]

...they really aren't that big a deal as long as you stick with 2 3/4", lowbase shells, ..

I never really thought about it, but can "lowbase" (I guess same as "low brass") shells not hold as much powder or something? What makes them inherently less powerful?

- OS

[Guest coldblackwind]

yeah, less power, but still more than low recoil shells, and I still wouldn't want to get hit by one. I shot a hood off a honda at about 15 yards and it was still enough force to punch through both the hood, and support metal underneath. 8 .32 caliber (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, 00 buck) pellets will make most anyone think twice. If your prefer slugs, I've killed deer with 2 3/4" low base (same as low brass by the way, yes) slugs. Actually spun one in a complete 180 degree turn with one (hit the spine). I keep mostly 2 3/4" 00 buck in my 500, with 3 3" 00 shells, simply because they hit HARD and i'm pretty sure they'll demolish a wall if someone is on the other side. Also, the 2 3/4 allows you to shoot a lot faster than the 3". I'm small, 5'5", about 155-160lbs, and I can run right through a magazine of 2 3/4 as fast as I can pump it, but 3", I have to recover for a second, and bring the gun back on target (and get the stars in front of my eyes to go away, kinda regret the collapsible stock). As for the fact I keep refering to 00 buck, I prefer that as a home defense round, although some will disagree. Birdshot doesn't have the penetration, it will hurt, and make them think twice, but it's unlikely to be deadly. Slugs have too much penetration, its more like to go through a wall and hit whatever or whoever is on the other side. Also, 00 buck spreads to just about torso size after about the length of a hallway (at least out of mossys, and going by my hallway) so you don't have to be dead on like a slug, close counts to a certain extent, and if you are dead on, you're hitting multiple vital areas at once. But bear in mind I'm not law enforcement, or military, or even had specialized training. Just going by what I've found, and my own practice with them.

Edited July 19, 2009 by coldblackwind
typo

[Oh Shoot]

yeah, less power, but still more than low recoil shells, and I still wouldn't want to get hit by one. I shot a hood off a honda at about 15 yards ...

Question remains, though, WHY are low brass shells inherently lower power? They have same length and volume, can hold same amount of powder and shot.

Come to think of it, though, I don't know that I've ever seen 00 or slug in low brass shells?

- OS

EDIT: According to ShotgunWorld.com, there is NO diff between capability of high and low brass shells anymore. The only diff there ever was, was in extraction reliablity of paper shells.

"High brass shells are shotgun shells that have a brass base (or head) that extends up the body by about 3/4" or so. Low brass hulls extend up the body by 1/8-1/4" or so. In paper hulls (now rarely seen) high brass is used for reliability of extraction. High brass was used in the early plastic hulls to prevent splitting and burn thru; it is mostly no longer needed due to improved plastics. In modern shot shells, the only real difference between high brass and low brass hulls is a marketing difference. Powerfull factory loads use high brass hulls, while standard or target loads use the low brass hulls. There is no correlation between the mechanical strength of the hull and amount of brass in the base."

Edited July 19, 2009 by OhShoot

[Guest Marine03]

For home defense I like the idea of skeet. The sheer volume will stop anyone not to mention it'll probably blind them in the process. And you don't have to worry about it penetrating walls like 00 will. Thats a nice thought when your kids are sleeping in the rooms down the hallway you would be shooting down. You can always have a slug or 00 in the magazine but I'd have something with a little less penetration for the first shot(s). Thats when your probably not sure of your targets exact location and your probably not quite all there especially in the middle of the night. 1-2 rounds of skeet to stop their progress and 00 to make sure they'll never come back.

[Oh Shoot]

With all due respect, this sounds extremely counter productive to the mission, which is to STOP the assailant ...

For home defense I like the idea of skeet. The sheer volume will stop anyone...

I'd say that birdshot is one of the LEAST effective things you could launch at a determined bad guy to STOP him.

not to mention it'll probably blind them in the process.

If you are close enough to be sure of blinding the BG, you're sure close enough to use buckshot and keep it all IN the BG, or not very far out his backside.

And you don't have to worry about it penetrating walls like 00 will.

You don't have to worry about it penetrating flesh deeply enough to be effective, either.

Thats a nice thought when your kids are sleeping in the rooms down the hallway you would be shooting down. You can always have a slug or 00 in the magazine but I'd have something with a little less penetration for the first shot(s). Thats when your probably not sure of your targets exact location and your probably not quite all there especially in the middle of the night.

You'd take a shot in your home without actually SEEING the target? No wonder you are worried about collateral damage!

1-2 rounds of skeet to stop their progress and 00 to make sure they'll never come back

If could stop their progress with birdshot, why have 00? If you're going to use 00 (which you should), why use couple rounds of birdshot? You just want to give the BG a better chance to shoot YOU? Very sporting of you, I must say!

Not sure you should be too jovial about it, considering the subject of protecting family.

- OS

[DaveTN]

I just picked up an 870 with the Knoxx Spec Ops NRS stock and it works. Takes the recoil issue out of the equation and also allows you to shorten the LOP for your wife. With a fixed stock, even a youth model, my wife had trouble with the LOP. It will cost about $120 extra but well worth it IMO.

SpecOps Adjustable Shotgun Stock - BLACKHAWK!

Thanks for that link; I have never seen those before.

They offer those stocks for the Remington 700. I emailed them to see if they have one that would fit my heavy barrel.

Does it really reduce the recoil as much as is claimed? It’s really hard to tell just watching the videos.

Even fully extended the stock doesn’t look as long as a standard stock. Is it on your 870?

[Guest coldblackwind]

Now you've seen a low brass 00 buck shell. Thats a 3" high brass 00 buck next to it for comparison.

[Oh Shoot]

Now you've seen a low brass 00 buck shell. Thats a 3" high brass 00 buck next to it for comparison.

Cool.

Just goes to show that there really isn't a structural reason for low vs high brass construction.

As I keep reading, has just become marketing .. high brass perceived as "more powerful".

I guess if it weren't for that, there wouldn't be anything but low brass; after all, it must be smidgen cheaper to make, just for the total weight/cost of brass material.

- OS

[Guest Marine03]

Allow me to explain in greater detail so i'm not misunderstood. My preferance is a AR 15 or M14. But I'm also a 4 yr Infantry Marine that trained under the Marine Corps and Isreali Special forces. I am combat qualified on everything from the m16 to shotguns and machine guns. However I was refering to someone other than me being forced to take actions to repell to enemy. AKA wife, older children ect.

With all due respect, this sounds extremely counter productive to the mission, which is to STOP the assailant ...

I'd say that birdshot is one of the LEAST effective things you could launch at a determined bad guy to STOP him.

If you are close enough to be sure of blinding the BG, you're sure close enough to use buckshot and keep it all IN the BG, or not very far out his backside.

You don't have to worry about it penetrating flesh deeply enough to be effective, either.

You'd take a shot in your home without actually SEEING the target? No wonder you are worried about collateral damage!

If could stop their progress with birdshot, why have 00? If you're going to use 00 (which you should), why use couple rounds of birdshot? You just want to give the BG a better chance to shoot YOU? Very sporting of you, I must say!

Not sure you should be too jovial about it, considering the subject of protecting family.

- OS

I'm sure that if someone unloaded several rounds of skeet from 10-15 feet away, whoever their shooting at will stop. Skeet will penetrate clothing and stop any forward momentum of the intruder. This would give the oportunity for whoever is defending to further incapacitate/kill the assailant with the following rounds of 00 or slug. The other factor you have to consider is this may be your wife or older child defending themselves not you. They probably don't have a "tactical mindset" to remember everything you will. Maybey she pulls the trigger without fully clearing the doorway bam right into a childs bedroom ect. now because it was 00 it penetrated the wall hitting the child therin and causeing more damage than if it was just pellets. Not to mention the recoil pushed her back so now she still doesn't have a good bead on the intruder. You have to plan for whom ever will be at home defending themselves not just you. So you have to plan in the murphy factor. Odds are good that it'll happen at night so, is whoever at home fully awake/cognsant of everything going on? The house is probably dark the person defending themselves is probably scared, and not fully awake. Do you think at night half awake you have achance to recognize and aim in on the target? No, you probably see a shadow or a figure that doesn't belong in your flash light cause if you take the time to find the lightswitch and turn it on your done. I've seen trained men forget simple things like did my muzzle clear the doorjam when under stress, and I'm just talking about training with simunitions. So you have to biuld in a "cushion" so to speak. No the skeet loaded first will not kill the intruder. But at first contact it will stop or impair their movement. That gives your wife or child a chance to get fully on target and ensure they won't come back AKA kill them. And if they miss it's not as dangerous as .38 cal balls going through the walls.

I don't plan for the perfect situation because it'll never happen. I plan for the simplest most logical way to end the situation while minimizing the risk to the inocent nearby. That may mean that the first rounds may have to have less punch but they will still have affect. And it can give someone who isn't trained for combat the means to safely defend thier home.

[Oh Shoot]

oops, dupe, dunno how it happened.

Edited July 20, 2009 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

Allow me to explain in greater detail so i'm not misunderstood. ...

All taken in, and I understand your intent.

Unlike you, I've never been formally trained, was not in the service, and have never shot anyone (though I've had 3 close encounters). However, I've shot enough to feel competent with the weapons I have, and think I have the mindset to use them competently under stress - I can't prove that unless the Bad Thing happens, and I hope I never have to. But I don't have to be a tactical genius to know that I want something that will give me the best chance of a one shot stop. I know that concept is largely a fallacy on its face, but certainly among my small arsenal, my shotgun with 00 buck stands the best chance of that. I can't carry my shottie around with me, but it's the weapon of choice within my domicile.

I also don't face the possibilty of collateral harm to a family in residence, but do have the possibity of harm to other apartment residents. However, regardless of the situation, my feeling is that if indeed your intruder(s) is/are not stopped quickly, the overall odds of harm to you and yours is much higher than the odds of collateral harm.

As far as your feeling that a scattergun with birdshot in it is best in the hands of your wife and son, I just can't see it. Seems to me you should ensure that if indeed they have access to the weapon, on the outside chance they need to use it, you should train them at least to the minimum point of their feeling as confident in the weapon's use as I am in mine, and keep it loaded with the same best odds load that you, a LEO, or even I would use in a extreme situation. And that ain't birdshot.

But certainly, your choices are surely as valid as mine, as I have no special insights into something I've never had to carry to completion.

best,

- OS

[Moped]

I understand where Marine3 is coming from. I wouldn't feel underarmed by sending a cloud of No. 6 down the hallway of my house. I've seen the damage it will do to dogs 10 yards out and it's not pretty. Seems like at that range, there's just not a large pattern. It's pretty concentrated in say 2-4 inches of spread depending on the choke. One round has always been sufficent to take a large dog down instantly from "hallway" range (in my house the hallway is 20 ft). The other advantage is that the kick is so much less, which makes follow up shots much quicker, especially for an undertrained woman or child.

[Magiccarpetrides]

I put a Knoxx Blackhawk stock I got from Coal Creek on my Remington 870 Police and it does wonders for reducing recoil and LOP...definitely money well spent if you plan on keeping the shotgun.

[Guest Marine03]

As far as your feeling that a scattergun with birdshot in it is best in the hands of your wife and son, I just can't see it. Seems to me you should ensure that if indeed they have access to the weapon, on the outside chance they need to use it, you should train them at least to the minimum point of their feeling as confident in the weapon's use as I am in mine, and keep it loaded with the same best odds load that you, a LEO, or even I would use in a extreme situation. And that ain't birdshot.

Skeet isn't my preference either. I'm just presenting it as a possiable option. And yes you should train the heck out of anyone you will be making the weapon available to. But that type of training can take years to instill as it is a mindset that must be learned. Think of how often you hear of police shootings in which dozens of rounds are expended with no hits. They have far more training then the average citizen and yet they don't always perform under stress. 99% of intruders will crap in their pants and jump out the window the second they hear a weapon racked inside of a home. It's the 1% that aren't scared that you have to prepare for. You can't put your family through "boot camp" to give them the mental toughness to perform under stress. But what you can do is give them the fundamentals so they can respond properly. And you can take small steps to minimize possiable actions that would be counterproductive.

You can train someone to hit the bullseye but under pressure is a different animal. Most people don't have the knowledge to train thier loved ones properly so giving them a shotty loaded with 00 or slug could be more hazardous than helpful. Most people don't think about the consequenses fireing a shotgun in confined spaces. The beauty and hazard of shotguns is their a "close counts weapon". I'm just trying present an option that most won't think of. Just because your confidant in your abilities doesn't mean your family is equaly able.

Sorry if it seems like I'm on a soap box. I just see way to many people that think a shotgun loaded with the deadliest rounds they can get will protect them. It does no good to have 00 or skeet unless you can put all the rounds in the right target. All it takes is 1 pellet to hit the wrong target and you'll wish you never fired at all.

[BigPoppa]

The beauty and hazard of shotguns is there a "close counts weapon".

Well put....I try to explain this in shotgun classes - the advantage to a shotgun is the tight shot pattern....the disadvantage to a shotgun is the tight shot pattern.

[HoustonGrey]

My wife and daughter have a Remington 870 20 gauge with Knoxx Recoil Stock for home defense when I travel. I actually used this gun in an Awerbuck class and it ran flawlessly. My girls can handle it just fine. Nice controlled, multiple follow up shots... I run Federal #3 Buck shot for home defense.

I have a 12 gauge set up the same way for me running Federal 00 Low Recoil Buck shot. I can tell you that the 12 gauge definitely kicks more than the 20 gauge.

[Guest 3pugguy]

For home defense I like the idea of skeet. The sheer volume will stop anyone not to mention it'll probably blind them in the process. And you don't have to worry about it penetrating walls like 00 will. Thats a nice thought when your kids are sleeping in the rooms down the hallway you would be shooting down. You can always have a slug or 00 in the magazine but I'd have something with a little less penetration for the first shot(s). Thats when your probably not sure of your targets exact location and your probably not quite all there especially in the middle of the night. 1-2 rounds of skeet to stop their progress and 00 to make sure they'll never come back.

Hey Marine03,

Thanks for the post/notes on skeet shot. Good points. And thanks for your service - Semper Fi (from your fellow TGO member and retired squid)!

Barry

[wjh2657]

Now I lay me down to sleep:

Maverick 88, 12 gauge, High Viz bead, Limb Eaze pad, #4 buckshot.

[Guest 3pugguy]

Now I lay me down to sleep:

Maverick 88, 12 gauge, High Viz bead, Limb Eaze pad, #4 buckshot.

Nice!

[Guest beefcakeb0]

what kind of mount is that??

[wjh2657]

Home Back Up, check out link below.

The Back-Up :: Home Protection Within Reach

[Guest Moody]

I use a Winchester 1300 with a pistol grip. It's compact enough to be easily stowed and out of the way...

[B18hybridhatch]

Ive got a mossberg 500a and i picked up a maverick 88 over the weekend and i love them both. as far as i can tell there pretty much the same gun and i picked each of mine up for around 200 bucks used. for a short good lookin shoty for hd i couldnt pass it up.

[TomR]

If anyone who will be using the gun is left-handed, the Mossberg is a better choice. The safety on top is equally convenient for right and left-handed shooters. The same is not true of the Remington.