ATF KILLS TN FIREARMS FREEDOM ACT!

[Guest momuzyk]

So now you're comparing our military and law enforcement to the Gestapo because, "they were just doing their job too" ?

I think you need to find another forum to use to advance this line of thinking. TGO isn't the place for it.

Why would he need to find another forum for his thinking? The 1st amendment protects his free speech whether you/I agree with it or not. Once you start controlling one side of speech, everyone's free speech is gone eventually. So personally whether I agree with someone point of view or not, I still stand for their 1st amendment right because in the end is allowing me to have mines!

[Smith]

Why would he need to find another forum for his thinking? The 1st amendment protects his free speech whether you/I agree with it or not. Once you start controlling one side of speech, everyone's free speech is gone eventually. So personally whether I agree with someone point of view or not, I still stand for their 1st amendment right because in the end is allowing me to have mines!

The 1st has nothing to do with a public forum. As David has made it clear, it's his house, his party and he can have who he wants. We are guest and must abide by his rules.

Think of it this way, guy comes to my house and starts saying all sorts of vulgar and off color stuff and he will be asked to leave. If he doesn't leave he will be escorted by the police. 1A has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[strickj]

Correctamundo!

The guy is mentioning taking up arms against the police,and thats against the rules here at TGO.

I also believe he has advocated carrying without a permit in another thread,also against the rules here

[Guest momuzyk]

Correctamundo!

The guy is mentioning taking up arms against the police,and thats against the rules here at TGO.

I also believe he has advocated carrying without a permit in another thread,also against the rules here

Well from the post I read I didn't take it that way and as far as his other post, I havent read them so I can't comment on those.. My comments was for the one post which I saw and replied to! Taking up arms against the police, I would never want that to happen because thats a no win situation for either side in the end. Even if you don't agree with the politicians and some crazy legislation that is being proposed, you SHOULD at all cost want the police and military on the side of the people, I DO!

B)

[TGO David]

Your freedom of speech includes the freedom to find another venue to espouse whatever you want. It does not mandate that I allow you to say whatever you want on a privately owned forum.

People seem to be completely clueless when it comes to this.

[Guest Matt Kubic]

Hey, I'm not upset about this issue. I am passionate though. I am not advocating or calling for A Call To Arms. No one is going to win in that scenario. But, if you are not willing to defend your rights at all costs, you neither have them nor deserve them. My line of thought is that people today seem to think that the government in this country is the ultimate authority and that is not so. It is what is taught in schools. Submission to arbitrary authority is rampant in our country now to our detriment. Our government was instituted "Of the People, for the People, and by the People. We are the ultimate authority in this country. Our politicians have just forgotten that as well a lot of people on this site. That is what I am trying to get across.

Here is a list of people I have personally spoken to since this bill was passed:

-Rep. Richard Floyd, my representative from 27th district

He was not aware of the ATF letter until I took it to his house last week. He was livid over their assumption that the state of TN is nothing more than an administrative arm of the fed gov. He is trying to get us an opinion letter from the Att. Gen. Please call him and voice your displeasure. He will love hearing from everyone. His cell number is 423.667.7171

-Rep. Ben West, Sponsor of the bill

I asked if he intended to stand behind TN residents on this issue and he said he already has by passing this bill. His number is 615.244.6675

-Christine Belevie? Aide to Attorney General Robert Cooper

She was polite but wishy washy as you expect a bureaucrat to be. Her number is 615.741.3491

-Chief Deputy to the Sheriff of Hamilton Co. Mr. Branham

He was very professional, but I could not get a feel for him.

-Attorney John Harris, as I understand it, he wrote the legislation

I left a message for him to call me and have not heard anything yet. His number is 615.244.6675

-Attorney Larry Becraft in Huntsville, AL

Larry is a well known scholar and an expert in the field of Constitutional infringements.

I haven't called the Governor's office because he made his opinion known by not signing the bill. He needs to be voted out of office.

Matt K.

[DaveTN]

Our politicians have just forgotten that as well a lot of people on this site. That is what I am trying to get across.

He was livid over their assumption that the state of TN is nothing more than an administrative arm of the fed gov. He is trying to get us an opinion letter from the Att. Gen. Please call him and voice your displeasure. He will love hearing from everyone. His cell number is 423.667.7171

-Attorney John Harris, as I understand it, he wrote the legislation

I left a message for him to call me and have not heard anything yet. His number is 615.244.6675

I haven't called the Governor's office because he made his opinion known by not signing the bill. He needs to be voted out of office.

Matt K.

Matt,

I couldn’t give a rolling rip down a razor blade what any politician, the Governor, or the Attorney General thinks about this bill. It is law. Its intent is clear and an AG opinion has no bearing on the Feds.

This is a show down between the Feds and the states over States Rights. I have a letter from the U.S. Department of Justice that informs me that federal law supersedes the TFFA. The ATF is clear on their intentions.

The time for talk is over. Has John Harris or anyone else stepped forward to get this to the courts? Or do we have to wait until some poor smuck is in Federal custody with the mistaken belief that the state of Tennessee can do anything?

I won’t waste my time calling the AG or any other politician that is absolutely powerless in this issue. Do we all need to get together to hire an attorney? With Tennessee being bitch slapped on the national news I would have thought something would be in the works.

Edited August 30, 2009 by DaveTN

[Guest Matt Kubic]

So now you're comparing our military and law enforcement to the Gestapo because, "they were just doing their job too" ?

I think you need to find another forum to use to advance this line of thinking. TGO isn't the place for it.

David,

No I made no comparison between the two. Please pay attention to what you read. I never said that. What I implied is that there are those in law enforcement and the military who follow orders even if those orders are illegal. They are not all like that, but there are some. There are also people who believe just because a LEO says something, it must be the law, also not true. LEOs have no requirement to follow an illegal order. But some do anyway because they are incapable of thinking for themselves or are afraid of losing their jobs which means they are either cowards or void of character. Either way, we don't need them or their superiors who give the illegal orders. They are as dangerous to our country as Nancy Pelosi or her ilk. We need to get over this mindset that we must always submit to arbitrary authority. Once again, don't get me wrong. I am all for legal authority as laid out in the Constitution. It's just that most in our country have it all backwards. WE are the authority in this country and we need to remember that. I have friends in the military and law enforcment that I respect and love as dear friends and they all think the same thing.

Matt K.

[Guest Matt Kubic]

Well, we absolutely agree on everything you said here. What I have been trying to get across in all of my posts on this issue is exactly what you said here. Where the DOJ is wrong is that the Fed law supercedes the TFFA. That is completely wrong. That is why I have compared some of them to the Gestapo. Those that sent that letter to all the FFL holders here in TN are the ones I would compare to Hilter and those that work for the ATF who would carry it out are the ones I would compare to the gestapo. The 10th amendment bars the ATF or the DOJ from jurisdiction over such matters, but they don't give a hoot for the limits the Constitution puts on them. They rule with intimidation and force.

If we all need to get together and hire an attorney, Larry Becraft is the man for the job. He is one of the few honest lawyers I know, and he is the best in that field. I would love to have a few thousand TN gunowners get together and throw a monkey wrench into the plans of anyone who wishes to deprive us of our rights. Count me in. That would be a great first step into showing them that we mean business and we are putting our money where our mouths are. Get everyone on this site to pitch in and we could cause some sleepless nights if nothing else. You are correct that this is a showdown over states' rights. It is a showdown that is long overdue. One that hasn't seen light since 1865. It is time and I am on your side.

Matt

Matt,

I couldn’t give a rolling rip down a razor blade what any politician, the Governor, or the Attorney General thinks about this bill. It is law. Its intent is clear and an AG opinion has no bearing on the Feds.

This is a show down between the Feds and the states over States Rights. I have a letter from the U.S. Department of Justice that informs me that federal law supersedes the TFFA. The ATF is clear on their intentions.

The time for talk is over. Has John Harris or anyone else stepped forward to get this to the courts? Or do we have to wait until some poor smuck is in Federal custody with the mistaken belief that the state of Tennessee can do anything?

I won’t waste my time calling the AG or any other politician that is absolutely powerless in this issue. Do we all need to get together to hire an attorney? With Tennessee being bitch slapped on the national news I would have thought something would be in the works.

[DaveTN]

Well, we absolutely agree on everything you said here.

No, we don’t agree on anything. I don’t agree with your slimy tactics of trying to blame this on military or LEO’s and calling them cowards that are void of character. They have nothing to do with this. If that’s the best you have for fixing our problems; it’s not worth anyone time to read what you post as you are clueless.

<O:p</O:p

I don’t agree with you minimizing what the Jews went through by making any comparison; there is none. Your crap about the holocaust is grandstanding and it makes you look like an idiot.

<O:p</O:p

Racist remarks sometimes start or end with “I have friends that are blackâ€, and the ignorant people making those remarks think that gives them some credibility. They don’t.

No more than your statements about cops and the military. Your friends would be appalled at your ignorance.

<O:p</O:p

I do not agree with you coming on this forum and in your introduction thread telling how you are breaking the law as a political statement. That’s dumber than hell. If you want to make a political statement strap that gun on open carry and walk around without a permit.

<O:p</O:p

You started your responses as a tin foil hat anti LEO/Military call to arms. When you saw that put you on the edge of being banned, you tuned to a plea to call a bunch of people that can be of no help.

<O:p</O:p

I don’t know who Larry Becraft is, but if he shares your views; I want nothing to do with him.

It is time and I am on your side.

I’m a former LEO with two honorable discharges. Based on your rhetoric I doubt we will be on the same side of anything.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Dave, are you saying that if it came down to a fight of the people vs Tyranny. You wouldn't be standing with him? Too many people have become the submissive to the master. That is what is leading our country down the road of what we have now.. our politicians have over the past 50 -60 years tried to subvert society into a populace that depends on the gov... and for what.. not for the help of the people, but on garner greater control over those that have elected them. I know officers too.. and it has been related to me.. that if ever the gov. tried the "great gun grab", that many would walk away.. there would be the few that would follow orders, because of the fear of losing a job and that type of fear would over ride common sense. You may feel that Matt is over the top alarmist, but I feel that in the end game, his heart is in the right place. Protection of the Constitution and a revert to a gov. as it should be under the aspects of the Constitution. If people would get their head out their butt and realize, the gov. is not the ultimate power, the states are and the people within them. After all, it is the states that granted a federal gov. and it was developed into three parts. Why, so that we wouldn't have a all powerful central gov., but if you see, we are heading in that direction.

TGO Dave, I like this site, but I still feel that you still subvert free speach to a point for the sake of political correctness.. If a person says something and others don't like it.. let it run.. There have been many things that have been said on this site that I feel shouldn't have been said.. I have just let it go, but once, saying something to you about it.

For all you others, if a man or woman wants to carry without a permit, then not fret none for it. It will not affect you. It will only affect them. Now I am only speaking in the terms of what Matt is saying. His convictions are his and yes a few of you don't agree with it.. it is fine to disagree, but I don't think it is right to chastize him for his convictions.

Some of you are going to think that I am off center with my comments,, but that is alright.. I think that many of you are off center as well.

[Guest HexHead]

Your freedom of speech includes the freedom to find another venue to espouse whatever you want. It does not mandate that I allow you to say whatever you want on a privately owned forum.

People seem to be completely clueless when it comes to this.

Technically, freedom of speech only means that the government won't haul your ass away because they didn't like what you said. It doesn't mean you can say whatever you want with no ramifications whatsoever.

[Guest HexHead]

What I implied is that there are those in law enforcement and the military who follow orders even if those orders are illegal. They are not all like that, but there are some.

This was best illustrated in New Orleans, post Katrina, when the police chief sent his officers around to confiscate guns from law abiding citizens that decided to stay in their homes that were above the flood waters to protect them from looting.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

This was best illustrated in New Orleans, post Katrina, when the police chief sent his officers around to confiscate guns from law abiding citizens that decided to stay in their homes that were above the flood waters to protect them from looting.

I whole heartedly agree..

[Guest Matt Kubic]

Dave,

There are bad/ignorant apples in every group of people. Once again, I am not nor ever have been anti LEO/military. I have great respect for the ones that don't walk around with a chip on their shoulder. There are some that can even listen to opinions without bias and selective memory and not get their feelings hurt, then respond intelligently with facts. I know some. I find it incomprehensible that one could read what I wrote and do nothing more than respond with an uneducated whine because someone refused to worship their sacred cow.

Once again, I made no comparison to the holocaust. Don't think I even mentioned the word. I made comparisons with the Gestapo to show that there are people who never question authority and follow orders blindly, whether they are lawful or not, because they have been taught not to think for themselves.

Racist remarks "sometimes" start with, "I have friends that are black," but not always. Sometimes it rains when the sun is shining, but that is not always the case. Sometimes the moon is full, but not always. Sometimes a person who disagrees with me actually responds with intelligence and facts and refrains from using personal attacks because they are incapable of independent, rational thought, but not always. Do you understand my analogies for "sometimes" and "credibility"?

No one informed me that I was on the edge of being banned. You could have sent me a private message telling me I was on the edge, but you didn't. You are welcome to see other posts by me at our TN highpower page on delphiforums.com. People there sometimes disagree with me, but they do so intelligently and usually politely.

"When you saw that put you on the edge of being banned, you tuned to a plea to call a bunch of people that can be of no help." ~your quote

I am amazed that you can read my mind all the way from there. Who is this "bunch of people" of whom you speak?

"I’m a former LEO with two honorable discharges."~your quote

I'm not sure how that is pertinent to our discussion, but Dr. Freud would have a field day. It speaks volumes. If I were in your shoes, I would be careful about throwing around words like clueless, credibility, ignorance, dumber than hell, etc.

Matt

No, we don’t agree on anything. I don’t agree with your slimy tactics of trying to blame this on military or LEO’s and calling them cowards that are void of character. They have nothing to do with this. If that’s the best you have for fixing our problems; it’s not worth anyone time to read what you post as you are clueless.

<o></o>

I don’t agree with you minimizing what the Jews went through by making any comparison; there is none. Your crap about the holocaust is grandstanding and it makes you look like an idiot.

<o></o>

Racist remarks sometimes start or end with “I have friends that are blackâ€, and the ignorant people making those remarks think that gives them some credibility. They don’t.

No more than your statements about cops and the military. Your friends would be appalled at your ignorance.

<o></o>

I do not agree with you coming on this forum and in your introduction thread telling how you are breaking the law as a political statement. That’s dumber than hell. If you want to make a political statement strap that gun on open carry and walk around without a permit.

<o></o>

You started your responses as a tin foil hat anti LEO/Military call to arms. When you saw that put you on the edge of being banned, you tuned to a plea to call a bunch of people that can be of no help.

<o></o>

I don’t know who Larry Becraft is, but if he shares your views; I want nothing to do with him.

I’m a former LEO with two honorable discharges. Based on your rhetoric I doubt we will be on the same side of anything.

[Guest GunTroll]

I like this guy Matt K guy. Got to go against the grain. Why all march to the same tune. That is a doomed road to follow!

And a quick question......Does anyone get to vote on anything that comes out of the ATF? Seems like they just put up new rules and thats that. Is the person put in charge down there a "Czar"?

I would like to see TN get a backbone and make a public statement concerning its state rights. I think this bill is more of a 10th amendment issue over a 2nd. Could be wrong though.

I am ex-military and see the issue of "bucking" authority. Its hard to do and usually you loss if not all the time. I tried it once and well, never again. The things you learn as a private go along way. That being said I still think the higher powers have a better chance at setting an example of defiance. IE.. Sheriff, Generals,Police chiefs, etc rather than the lower ranked people. Surely some people in this position are with a conscious???

[DaveTN]

I would like to see TN get a backbone and make a public statement concerning its state rights. I think this bill is more of a 10th amendment issue over a 2nd. Could be wrong though.

I think you are correct. I have not heard anyone try to make a 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment issue. It is about the 10<SUP>th</SUP> and States Rights.

Politicians can’t settle it; it is out of their hands. It now has to go through the courts.

[DaveTN]

If I were in your shoes, I would be careful about throwing around words like clueless, credibility, ignorance, dumber than hell, etc.

See how easy it is to get someone’s panties in a bunch when you reduce the discussion to name calling and trying to demean a whole group of people that have absolutely nothing to do with your problems.

[Guest redbarron06]

Montanna is already in teh process of challengin thier own law. The MFFA passed prior to the passing of TNs law ours just went into effect sooner. I hope that TN will join MT in the court battles. Last I heard MT wanted this on the fast track to SCOTUS.

My personally I think that SCOTUS will vote down on states rights and then we will start to have even more distrust in the states even if they are not involved in this peticular battle.

[DaveTN]

Montanna is already in teh process of challengin thier own law. The MFFA passed prior to the passing of TNs law ours just went into effect sooner. I hope that TN will join MT in the court battles. Last I heard MT wanted this on the fast track to SCOTUS.

My personally I think that SCOTUS will vote down on states rights and then we will start to have even more distrust in the states even if they are not involved in this peticular battle.

I don’t think the SCOTUS really wants to make a decision on States Rights. I have thought all along that is why they don’t want to address any 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment issues. They dodged the bullet in Heller.

The thing is they don’t have to hear any cases they don’t want to hear. Tennessee and the other states need to get in line with their own cases.

It is my understanding (and I’m sure someone will chime in if I’m wrong) that this isn’t about firearms; it’s about Health Care. But the Obama health care plan isn’t in place yet and firearms laws are.

News Channel 13 - *

Firearms Law to be Tested

Steve Fetveit (8/21/09)

Earlier this year, the Montana Legislature passed legislation declaring the state’s standing in the control of firearms produced in Montana and sold to Montanans.

Today, the Montana Shooting Sports Association announced they’ll be testing the Montana Firearms Freedom Act in court.

The association has formed an alliance with a group called The Second Amendment Foundation to bring the suit into federal court.

M.S.S.A. President, Gary Marbut of Missoula, says the effort is less about firearms and more about a test of states rights versus federal rights.

The Montana law, which is set to go into effect on October first, challenges the use of the federal interstate commerce clause to justify regulation of the private economy.

The two groups say they’ll request a declaratory judgement on the day the law becomes effective.

Second Amendment Foundation founder Alan Gottlieb says, "this is an issue that needs public attention because it challenges federal intrusion into an area where the federal government clearly, and literally, has no business."

According to Marbut, the concept of the Firearms Freedom Act is getting attention in other states. Tennessee has passed a clone of the MFFA. Other measures have been introduced in the legislatures of Alaska, Texas, Florida, South Carolina, Minnesota and Michigan.

<O:p</O:p

[Guest redbarron06]

I think it would be awesome to see "United States vs. Montanna, Tennessee, Texas, Alaska, Florida, South Carolina, Minnesota and Michigan".

[Guest FroggyOne2]

It is my understanding (and I’m sure someone will chime in if I’m wrong) that this isn’t about firearms; it’s about Health Care.

How do you get that?

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Mark Levin

You all should listen to the 8/31 show. It is free..

[Guest Gun Geek]

Wow, just read the whole thread. WHEW. My gunsmith brought me that letter when he first got it.

Not that I am entirely defending Matt K. because comparing Military & LEO personnel as whole to gestapo is wrong, but those of us that have been in the Military or LEO know that there are bad apples in the bunch. I know when I was in we called them "$*&^ bags", "shammers" etc. There are bad apples in every bunch regardless of what profession or group they belong to. Its nature it will happen. I think that was the point that he was trying to get across, while he may have done it in a poor manner, I think that is what he meant. I may be wrong, I may have missed a post or two in 13 pages but, eh.

I think it would be awesome to see "United States vs. Montanna, Tennessee, Texas, Alaska, Florida, South Carolina, Minnesota and Michigan".

On the getting a Lawyer and tossing in some money, I am up for it. I have friends in other states that are up to it, I know several lawyers in multiple states that would probably be up to it. Why have just one lawyer? Get the best of the best from each state, and organize a massive suit. Not considering monetary gain for the lawyers but think about the media frenzy and publicity they will get from it... should be motivation enough? Of course money is needed I know, for court costs etc etc.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Now that sounds like a plan if we can get the right Barristers to take the case "Pro Bono"!!!