ATF KILLS TN FIREARMS FREEDOM ACT!

[Guest kerstuff]

AAAaaand another mention here.

Washington drops hammer on state gun plan

I've been following this as closely as the rest of you guys. I can only hope that the legislators of Tennessee will actually stand up and say enough is enough, and give our 10th amendment rights some backbone.

I agree 100% and demand that the State of TN and not the Obamanation to take our rights back! I'm sick of this crap as well as others.

[Mark@Sea]

Stopping the abuse of the commerce clause was why this was passed in the first place.

This is the first step in what is sure to be a long dance. It will take years.

[Tim Nunan]

Interestingly when asked what his response to the ATF would be on ignoring this Tennessee law Zack Wamp said he'd meet them at the state line. Now whether that was to stop them or escort them he never said.

[Aviator]

So What is the final word or outcome?

[DaveTN]

The law passed. I don’t see how there can be an outcome until we have.

1. A Tennessee manufacturer willing to sell without the proper ATF paperwork.

2. A buyer willing to go to the Federal pen.

3. The ATF notified of the sale.

<O:p</O:p

I’m almost 100% sure that I know what the outcome of that would be.

<O:p</O:p

Or…. Maybe someone can file suit that the government is restricting their right to buy the items in question. I don’t know. But I kinda think if that was the case; it would have been filed the day after the ATF letter came out.

[Paletiger13]

Why don't we all call the ATF?

[Smith]

Why don't we all call the ATF?

Cause paranoid or not, no one want to be on the Gestapo's radar.

Will this get me flagged?

[Paletiger13]

Very true:tinfoil:

[ukerduker]

Cause paranoid or not, no one want to be on the Gestapo's radar.

Will this get me flagged?

Flag@whitehouse.gov You are now on the radar!

just kidding.

[Smith]

Flag@whitehouse.gov You are now on the radar!

just kidding.

Ah dang!

[Guest Matt Kubic]

Guys anyone that plays with ATF on this issue is going to get burned. They will find a way to prove that you broke the law, when you mess with ATF about NFA stuff you will lose. I hate to be that way but look at the history with ATF. They dont play fair, period. As much as I want to be able to build NFA items without all the hassle and money its just not going to happen. I will be glad to eat crow on this one if Im wrong.

-Jason G

Jason,

With all due respect on this issue, if they don't play fair, why should we? Why shouldn't they have something serious to lose by violating our state law? Do you think their response to such a situation would change if they knew that 500 or so armed TN men would confront them if they attempted to go after someone who was obviously obeying state law? Would their $14/hr job be worth the potential cost? This is all a hypothetical situation, but ultimately every confrontation with any government from the beginning of time has ultimately come down to who threatens and is willing to follow through on the use of force to enforce their agenda. That is the way it has always been, and that is the way it will always be. Until people in TN have had enough, things will never change. Like Clint Eastwood said in Unforgiven, "If anyone shoots at me, I'm not only gonna kill him, I gonna kill his dog and burn his damn house down." Once we adopt this mindset and intend to enforce it, their tune will change. Principal trumphs paychecks 99% of the time. Are there 500 such men left in TN?

Matt K.

[Jasongar8]

Jason,

With all due respect on this issue, if they don't play fair, why should we? Why shouldn't they have something serious to lose by violating our state law? Do you think their response to such a situation would change if they knew that 500 or so armed TN men would confront them if they attempted to go after someone who was obviously obeying state law? Would their $14/hr job be worth the potential cost? This is all a hypothetical situation, but ultimately every confrontation with any government from the beginning of time has ultimately come down to who threatens and is willing to follow through on the use of force to enforce their agenda. That is the way it has always been, and that is the way it will always be. Until people in TN have had enough, things will never change. Like Clint Eastwood said in Unforgiven, "If anyone shoots at me, I'm not only gonna kill him, I gonna kill his dog and burn his damn house down." Once we adopt this mindset and intend to enforce it, their tune will change. Principal trumphs paychecks 99% of the time. Are there 500 such men left in TN?

Matt K.

First off let me welcome you to TGO. Second if you think you are going to out gun the federal government you are wrong. You could have 5000 guys who think like you and still lose. If you want to challenge BATFE of this issue be my guest. I will sitting at my house with my family while you are in prison or maybe even worse. I know you and maybe some other will call me a ***** for my thoughts but a SBR or SBS or a supressor isnt worth my life, its simple as that. Until the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 are repealed I continue to pay my $200.

-Jason G

[Guest Matt Kubic]

I understand you, but I disagree on one VERY important point. I don't think it would take 5000 anymore. I think the sentiment has changed so much or is about to that most law enforcement officers, military personnel and ex-military would side with us. They are as disillusioned as anyone else. They see the corruption in the system as much as anyone else. Our entire ecomomy is crumbling around us and that affects everyone. You must remember, a couple of hundred years ago, about 10-12% of the population out gunned the federal government. I would have agreed with you 5 years ago because everyone had a fat 401k, a manageable mortgage, and a new car, so they didn't pay attention and didn't care about these things. When those things start to disappear, people begin to pay attention to more important issues. That is why it is so important for them to get the economy back on track. It distracts people from issues like this. Plus, you don't have to deal with an entire organization to make it succumb. You only have to deal with certain individuals within that organization until the others see that it ain't worth it anymore. This is the psyops that they use against us. Scare the snot out of a few and the others won't dare you. In the same vein that you think a SBR or SBS isn't worth your life, don't you think they think the same way? Those guys are only human, you know.

Regards,

Matt K.

First off let me welcome you to TGO. Second if you think you are going to out gun the federal government you are wrong. You could have 5000 guys who think like you and still lose. If you want to challenge BATFE of this issue be my guest. I will sitting at my house with my family while you are in prison or maybe even worse. I know you and maybe some other will call me a ***** for my thoughts but a SBR or SBS or a supressor isnt worth my life, its simple as that. Until the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 are repealed I continue to pay my $200.

-Jason G

[Jonsaiga]

This may be a dumb question but I was curious and have absolutely no idea about the legalities involved........

If the state has passed a bill into law saying that it is perfectly legal to do this, and that the federal laws regarding the matter don't apply so long as their(state's) stipulations in the bill are abide by(marked made in TN and the item(s) in question never leave the state, etc).......

What kind of charges if any could be brought against the federal agency(s) that tried to make the arrest of a person(s) who decided to build one these items? False arrest and/or imprisonment maybe??

according to False Arrest legal definition of False Arrest. False Arrest synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

"

false arrest n. physically detaining someone without the legal right to do so. Quite often this involves private security people, or other owners or employees of retail establishments who hold someone without having seen a crime committed in their presence or pretend that they are police officers. While they may be entitled to make a "citizen's arrest" they had better be sure that they have a person who has committed a crime, and they must call law enforcement officers to take over at the first opportunity. Other common false arrest situations include an arrest by a police officer of the wrong person or without probable cause to believe a crime has been committed and/or without a warrant. Only when the arresting party knowingly holds someone who has not committed a crime, is the false arrest itself a crime. However, probable false arrest can be the basis of a lawsuit for damages, including mental distress and embarrassment. (See: false imprisonment)"

Has anyone contacted TN state government and asked them where this issue now stands or what their response to such arrests would be?

<SCRIPT>Sources=Sources | 4096;law()</SCRIPT>

[redfsr]

Jonsaiga, if a firearm does not affect interstate commerce, the federal govt will not prosecute the case. It has always been that way. After this TN law was passed, the ATF issued a statement to FFLs telling them they are to continue doing business as usual (i.e. doing background checks, keeping 4473s and logging their A&D books).

I would suggest most people are upset about this because they still aren't allowed to make NFA weapons. If you make a machinegun, SBR, SBS, suppressor, etc., those firearms fall under the NFA act and an interstate nexus is not needed.

I don't see what the big deal is. Personally, I don't think the ATF is against law abiding citizens from owning firearms. If you aren't a previously convicted felon or otherwise prohibited person, dealing firearms without a license, trafficking firearms, etc., they aren't going to mess with you. I am a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment but if we deregulated firearms sales so that anyone no matter what kind of background they have can buy them, that would be a bad thing. I know criminals will still have guns. They always have and always will to an extent but at least they just can't walk into a store and buy one.

Matt, do you really want to go to battle with law enforcement? Law enforcement officers don't create laws, politicians do. If you have a problem with a particular law, you are planning to fight the wrong fight.

[TGO David]

Matt, do you really want to go to battle with law enforcement? Law enforcement officers don't create laws, politicians do. If you have a problem with a particular law, you are planning to fight the wrong fight.

One of the best statements made yet.

[G27]

Matt, do you really want to go to battle with law enforcement? Law enforcement officers don't create laws, politicians do. If you have a problem with a particular law, you are planning to fight the wrong fight.

I am not advocating going to battle with anyone here, but if everyone had this attitude we'd still be under British rule...

[DaveTN]

I think the sentiment has changed so much or is about to that most law enforcement officers, military personnel and ex-military would side with us.

I’m not sure who you think “Us†is; but you would be wrong. Most LEO’s, Military, and gun owners in general are law abiding citizens of this country. They are not going to take up arms against other Americans. They are the people that would put you in prison if you tried.

[Guest Matt Kubic]

redfsr,

I don't want to battle with anyone. I have a lot of friends in law enforcement. But let me put what you said into a different perspective.

They (law enforcement officers) are just doing their job and following orders from their superiors. Well, the gestapo was just doing their job too when they gassed millions of innocent people. Does this make them any less liable? I don't think so. We must get over the mindset that only those who make "unlawful" laws are the only ones liable. Those who mindlessly carry out those laws only to protect their jobs are equally wrong, not only legally but morally.

Matt K.

[Guest Matt Kubic]

Dave,

I think "us" are the people on the Constitutionally correct side of this issue. That is, there are inherent limits on government control over our lives. As I said in an earlier post, was the gestapo not liable for gassing people just because they were only following orders? I have always been a law abiding citizen, but your statement presents a dilemma. If the law abiding citizens you speak of would not take up arms against other Americans, then why would LEOs go after a person who was well within the state law that was written? Allow me to quote the 10th amendment to the Constitution and what it means.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

What this means is that there are very specific powers granted to the federal government. They are laid out in detail. Anything that is not laid out in detail in the Constitution is not under the authority of the federal government. Regulation over firearms is not there. As a matter of fact, it is specifically excluded by the 2nd amendment which we hold so dear. The founding fathers' only reason for putting the 2nd amendment there was so the people would have the means to deter the government from violating the rest of the Constitution. This letter from ATF is in direct conflict with the 10th amendment to the Constitution. Anyone who understands this sees that this is a power reserved to the state of TN or to the people.

If you analyze your statement, you say that those LEOs and law abiding citizens who would not take up arms against other Americans are the ones who would ignore a vaild state law and put another American in prison for following a state law that the federal government has no jurisdiction over whatsoever. With all due respect, I believe you need to remember that the Constitution is still the supreme law of the land. Whose side are you on? The gestapo/ATF or ours?

Edited August 28, 2009 by Matt Kubic

[Jonsaiga]

Jonsaiga, if a firearm does not affect interstate commerce, the federal govt will not prosecute the case. It has always been that way. After this TN law was passed, the ATF issued a statement to FFLs telling them they are to continue doing business as usual (i.e. doing background checks, keeping 4473s and logging their A&D books).

I would suggest most people are upset about this because they still aren't allowed to make NFA weapons. If you make a machinegun, SBR, SBS, suppressor, etc., those firearms fall under the NFA act and an interstate nexus is not needed.

OK, I was under the impression that the only thing gave the Federal Government the authority over the issue was due to how it effects interstate commerce. I wouldn't say that I'm really upset over the issue, just a little disappointed. I would have liked to have been able to make a suppressor without all the paper work and tax stamps involved. Thanks for the input.

I don't see what the big deal is. Personally, I don't think the ATF is against law abiding citizens from owning firearms. If you aren't a previously convicted felon or otherwise prohibited person, dealing firearms without a license, trafficking firearms, etc., they aren't going to mess with you. I am a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment but if we deregulated firearms sales so that anyone no matter what kind of background they have can buy them, that would be a bad thing. I know criminals will still have guns. They always have and always will to an extent but at least they just can't walk into a store and buy one.

The folks at Waco, or more recently David Olofson might disagree with. It may not happen often but it has happened in the past and can very well happen again in the future.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Jonsaiga

[Jonsaiga]

If you analyze your statement, you say that those LEOs and law abiding citizens who would not take up arms against other Americans are the ones who would ignore a vaild state law and put another American in prison for following a state law that the federal government has no jurisdiction over whatsoever. With all due respect, I believe you need to remember that the Constitution is still the supreme law of the land. Whose side are you on? The gestapo/ATF or ours?

Matt, I can understand you are very passionate and upset about the issue and all but don't you think "we the people" have the legal and moral obligation to explore every viable peaceable means of resolving the issue before chanting, "To Arms, To Arms!!"? Who have you tried contacting to peaceable resolve this?

[TGO David]

I am not advocating going to battle with anyone here, but if everyone had this attitude we'd still be under British rule...

A lot has changed in the world since 1775.

[TGO David]

They (law enforcement officers) are just doing their job and following orders from their superiors. Well, the gestapo was just doing their job too when they gassed millions of innocent people. Does this make them any less liable? I don't think so. We must get over the mindset that only those who make "unlawful" laws are the only ones liable. Those who mindlessly carry out those laws only to protect their jobs are equally wrong, not only legally but morally.

So now you're comparing our military and law enforcement to the Gestapo because, "they were just doing their job too" ?

I think you need to find another forum to use to advance this line of thinking. TGO isn't the place for it.

[redfsr]

What concerns me the most are groups of people with a lot of misinformation taking action against the government that will in return create more legislation regulating what we can and can't have. Look at prohibition. I wasn't around back then and don't believe prohibition should have happened but the bootleggers took up arms and fought "the man" which led to the GCA and NFA laws. They outgunned the police with machine guns, SBS, SBRs and look what happened.

Bottom line, the ATF or any other federal agency is not out to take our guns away. Someof our political leaders are the ones that want to do that but can't because they aren't getting the support needed. The best course of action is to stay a law abiding citizen so that when the day comes to vote their butts out of office, you can legally do so. 2 more years and a lot can change in the House and Senate if people get out and vote. 3.5 more years and things can really really change. And don't forget about the local elections.

This whole gestapo comparison is absurd and is the very reason people like George Bush Sr publicly resigned from the NRA.