Oak Ridge to consider banning guns in parks

[analog_kidd]

No guns in Oak Ridge parks? - Oak Ridge, TN - The Oak Ridger

OAK RIDGE —

Handguns would continue to be prohibited in Oak Ridge parks under a resolution that was scheduled to be discussed by the City Council during an agenda review Monday night.

If approved later this month, the city would opt out of recently passed state legislation that will allow handgun-carry permit holders to bring their weapons into federal, state and local parks.

Before the new state law passed, carrying a handgun in a municipal park was prohibited. The new law would apparently allow permit holders to begin carrying guns into parks on Sept. 1.

However, the new law (Public Chapter 428) includes an "opt-out provision" for local governments. Officials in other areas — including those serving on the Anderson County Commission — have also considered or are discussing the opt-out provision.

The Oak Ridge prohibition, expected to be considered by the City Council at its regular meeting on July 20, would extend to greenways, natural areas and other similar public places. Exceptions would be granted for approved gun shows, working law enforcement officers and legal hunting.

Violating the prohibition would be considered a misdemeanor punishable by up to 11 months and 29 days in jail and a maximum fine of $2,500.

City Council's July 13 non-voting agenda review session was scheduled to begin at 7 p.m. in the Municipal Building Courtroom.

It was to follow a 6 p.m. special meeting on the state Route 95 road-widening project which has drawn controversy in the west end of Oak Ridge.

More on these stories will be published in the print edition of The Oak Ridger, your hometown newspaper for more than 60 years.

John Huotari can be contacted at (865) 220-5533

[Guest SUNTZU]

One place the DEFINITELY needs to allow HCP holders to go armed in their parks is Oak freaking Ridge.

[Guest bkelm18]

AHHHHHH. I was really hoping they wouldn't do this. Anderson County votes on it later this month as well. I know it will pass in OR since the council and mayor are idiots.

[Guest bkelm18]

Another article. As usual the Police Chief and Mayor spout off their moronic agenda.

No guns in Oak Ridge parks? - Oak Ridge, TN - The Oak Ridger

OAK RIDGE, Tenn. —

City officials appear to be divided on whether to continue to prohibit guns in local parks.

The prohibition is included in a resolution to be considered by the Oak Ridge City Council on July 20.

A new state law will allow permit holders to carry weapons into federal, state and local parks. However, the new law includes an "opt-out provision" for local governments.

City staff is recommending that the city "opt out," as some other communities are doing.

Earlier this week, City Manager Jim O'Connor said he and Josh Collins, the city's recreation and parks director, had concerns about the new legislation -- including the possibility that parents could bring weapons to athletic events beginning Sept. 1.

"Sometimes at Little League baseball games it gets a little heated," O'Connor said. "Children and firearms don't mix."

The Oak Ridge resolution would maintain an existing prohibition on guns in municipal parks and would extend to greenways, natural areas and other similar public places.

"I see no reason or purpose to allow people to carry guns into those areas," Oak Ridge Police Chief David Beams said.

City Attorney Ken Krushenski said a Murfreesboro newspaper had reported that 46 cities and counties have already opted out of the new state legislation.

Mayor Tom Beehan said Oak Ridge needs to opt out of the new law if it wants to be "pro-family, pro-children and pro-police."

But City Council member Anne Garcia Garland argued that the opt-out provision is unenforceable, and permit holders are trained and responsible. She carries a gun to protect herself while walking on some trails, Garcia Garland said, and, under the opt-out provision, only outlaws will bring guns to parks.

"There is no way to prevent people from carrying guns into parks," she said. "We don't have officers available."

Mayor Pro Tem Jane Miller echoed Garcia Garland, saying the only people who will bring guns to parks are those who do so illegally, if the city adopts the "opt-out" provision.

"All we're going to do is try and keep the permitted guns out of parks, and I don't know if that makes sense," she said.

Beams acknowledged that the people the Police Department deals with will bring guns to parks regardless of the law, but he's not aware of any situation where a "good citizen with a gun" would have prevented a crime.

It wasn't clear how other City Council members might vote at next Monday's meeting. Their meeting this past Monday was an agenda review session, and Council does not vote at those sessions.

Council member Charlie Hensley said the decision on whether a person should or could carry a gun might depend on their location.

"I've been a baseball coach for 20 years, and I'm glad that some of the fans weren't packing," Hensley said. But it might be good to carry a weapon if you are in the Big South Fork Park in northern Tennessee at night, he said.

Under the Oak Ridge resolution, exceptions to the gun prohibition would be granted for approved gun shows, legal hunters and law enforcement officers carrying out official duties.

Violating the prohibition would be considered a misdemeanor punishable by up to 11 months and 29 days in jail and a maximum fine of $2,500.

The Anderson County Commission is also discussing the opt-out provision.

John Huotari can be contacted at (865) 220-5533.

[mousegunner]

All over TN, in our towns and cities, knee-jerk Liberalism is in full swing.

[analog_kidd]

"I see no reason or purpose to allow people to carry guns into those areas," Oak Ridge Police Chief David Beams said.

Beams acknowledged that the people the Police Department deals with will bring guns to parks regardless of the law, but he's not aware of any situation where a "good citizen with a gun" would have prevented a crime.

So, Chief Beams see no reason to allow law abiding citizens to carry in parks, but acknowledges that we have a criminal element that will carry there, regardless of the law.

As far as him not knowing of a past situation where a permit holder could have prevented a crime, I certainly don't want my family to be the first case, and be caught without some sort of defense.

I own a house across the street from a large park in OR, and I have personally witnessed drug buys there, and I see the cops there all the time. So, we definitely have a need to be able to defend ourselves if we want to visit one of these parks.

Beams needs to be finding a new job as far as I'm concerned. Since he has been in office, crime rate has risen, and officer morale has dropped.

Unfortunately, I will be out of town on Monday evening, so I won't be able to attend the council meeting, Are there any other's who might be able to take a stand for our cause?

[Guest SUNTZU]

I just don't understand why its hard for people to wrap their heads around allowing law abiding people to carry guns where criminals will carry them regardless. I think its messed up mathematics on their part. They feel they are removing half the guns that will be in the park and that will lead to less crime. Stupid! HCP holders aren't committing the crimes!

[Mike.357]

HCP holders aren't committing the crimes!

where do you come up with these ideas?

[Guest SUNTZU]

...show me statistics.....link?.....

[analog_kidd]

Defense of self in Oak Ridge - Oak Ridge, TN - The Oak Ridger

Fred Childress has a nice letter to the editor in the Oakridger. He is a fine American, and is also the owner of a very nice cafe' here in town in the shopping center where Karen's Jewelers is. They have excellent and healthy food.

He and his wife took the carry class with my wife.

[Guest bkelm18]

Defense of self in Oak Ridge - Oak Ridge, TN - The Oak Ridger

Fred Childress has a nice letter to the editor in the Oakridger. He is a fine American, and is also the owner of a very nice cafe' here in town in the shopping center where Karen's Jewelers is. They have excellent and healthy food.

He and his wife took the carry class with my wife.

I was just about to post that. I've seen their cafe and have always wanted to try it. I think this is a good reason to give them my business.

[Guest mikedwood]

I went to the coucil meeting tonight. There were many pro-carry supporters there and some very good speeches. A few anti's not many, apparently they emailed the council members like crazy as all the coucil members had their mind made up when they got there. Judging by their prepared 10 minuite speeches before they cast thier vote.

Bottom line is don't carry a gun in a park in Oak Ridge on, before or after Sept the 1st that right is reserved for thuglets and drug dealers. Not, I repeat not us permit holders, we are just to darn dangerous and having passed a 10 year backgroud check aren't on parole.

5-2 to opt out of the new law.

They are going to spend $30,000 or more on signs to keep us from doing something we are licensed to do. And I was planning on heading to the local parks after the 1st so I might avoid a home invasion.

[Moped]

You all need to vote them out come the next election. And you need to make sure they KNOW WHY they got voted out of office. Oak Ridge has some pretty dangerous parts. Not being from there, I wouldn't know a safe area from an unsafe area.

Of course, right now Fountain City, where I live, it's getting bad. We've had about 6 or 7 bank robberies just in this area, in the last three weeks. There were two today. One on Essary Rd (I think it was Region and if so the second time it's been hit in two weeks) and the Home Federal at East Town Mall were hit this morning.

[Guest bkelm18]

I'm afraid Oak Ridge is a lost cause.

[BrasilNuts]

I'm afraid Oak Ridge is a lost cause.

You could be right, but Ms. Miller and Ms. Garcia Garland gave me a little ( I hate using this word anymore) hope.

[Guest mikedwood]

I'm afraid Oak Ridge is a lost cause.

I don't think it is. People are becoming more aware. I know most people I talk to in Oak Ridge are pro carry. Last night most of the people at the meeting were pro 2nd and pro carry.

Most of the council members said that 60% of the emails on the opt in-out subject were in favor of opting out. I am thinking that it was a local church (I won't name them because it's a theory) that probably had members from other areas email our council members. Other wise I think opt in would have been a shoe in.

Also I really don't think that 4 of the 7 council members had a clue on what they were voting on. They simply hadn't put any effort in learning about it.

It is very sad to me to see the current mayor and police chief so against HCP holders yet the thug crimes don't seem to bother them to much unless the paper crawls their butts, then they come out against it but not much changes.

I wonder if they are thinking that the red light/speed cameras will stop these thug/gang/druggy crimes?

With these red light cameras and the council opting out of the local park carry I'm either going to get more involved in Oak Ridge politics or just more to another place altogether. I do not like the direction Oak Ridge is heading.

You could be right, but Ms. Miller and Ms. Garcia Garland gave me a little ( I hate using this word anymore) hope.

They gave me great hope with their speeches until the others spoke and I realized how fleeting the hope was. Then the hope turned to dispair.

Edited July 21, 2009 by mikedwood

[Guest bkelm18]

Mike D. Wood for Mayor!

[Guest mikedwood]

Mike D. Wood for Mayor!

Thank you:cheers:.

How much does it pay?

Do I get a cut off the cameras? Wouldn't matter I would take them down.

I know I would make more than a few people mad. I bet I wouldn't live out my term.

[BrasilNuts]

Also I really don't think that 4 of the 7 council members had a clue on what they were voting on. They simply hadn't put any effort in learning about it.

I was very disappointed with this also. I think they knew how they were going to vote from the beginning so they didn't bother to educate themselves on the matter.

The City Attorney and the City Manager are.... well, I lack the words right now, but two things they said really got under my skin.

First, when the City Attorney referred to it as "allowing weapons in parks"

Second, when the City Manager said the cost will be $5000, but I don't know how many signs we'll need.

Oh, and one more thing. Is it normal to have two Officers present at City Council meetings?

[Guest mikedwood]

I was very disappointed with this also. I think they knew how they were going to vote from the beginning so they didn't bother to educate themselves on the matter.

They did know judging by thier statements, But I know how I would have voted also. But I really think 2 of the "opt-out" votes made up thier minds due to the amount of Emails recieved.

I think Mosby wanted to vote yes but was scared to. I think we might have lost his yes vote when everyone laughed at him. But I don't think he understood anything about any of it.

The City Attorney and the City Manager are.... well, I lack the words right now, but two things they said really got under my skin.

I'd throw the police chief in there as well. No word for it either but something is... well I don't know, as far as I see it the Oak Ridge officials just can't get it together, can't get anything right,

A lot of it hinges on the mall and getting business other than the plants. They can't do it and if they do can't keep it. If the government closes or a plant or two Oak Ridge will be a ghost town. It almost was before SNS opened.

Most of the people that work at the plants and make good money burn out of this city come quitting time and don't return till work the next day.

There is no reason Oak Ridge shouldn't be a super great place. Yet it's not.

First, when the City Attorney referred to it as "allowing weapons in parks".

I wish we had all the weapons, it would be pretty darn safe out there. Just goes to show how much they get out.

Second, when the City Manager said the cost will be $5000, but I don't know how many signs we'll need.

$15 per sign. I think it's going to cost at least that much more to get them hung as well. Going to need a lot of signs.

Oh, and one more thing. Is it normal to have two Officers present at City Council meetings?

I think so. Is it normal for the officers to scowl the entire time? I believe police officers in general would gain more respect and help from average citizens if they would freakin smile and say hi to people once in awhile. Instead of giving that "One wrong move and I'll beat you down" look.

Maybe they don't have much to smile about anymore. I'm not bashing them at all. Police just use to be nicer.

[LagerHead]

I would like to share with you a response I got from Jane Miller. I sent her and the rest of the city council the same thing I sent to Memphis, and received a response from two council members. One was a one sentence response stating that he (can't remember which one, deleted it) was taking into account the safety of everyone. Yea right. The second was from Jane Miller.

The thing I found most interesting is that Ms. Miller is not even a gun owner, yet strongly supports our 2nd Amendment rights. It just goes to show you that even among non gun owners there are those that can think clearly and make up their own mind. Kudos to Ms. Miller for her efforts.

With her permission, I am posting her response and the statement she read at the city council meeting. I also would like to thank her for standing up and making these statements even though I suspect she knew she was fighting a battle that was won before she walked into that meeting.

Dear Sir:

I was one of the two who voted NOT to opt out on this important decision. My vote was based on facts, the law and the constitution to which I have sworn to uphold. Attached is an a guest column (by me) that was published in the Oak Ridge Observer last Thursday, July 16. I also gave a long speech before the vote supporting the law-abiding citizens who are HCPs. We gave it our best shot. Your NRA members present at the meeting and those who I have talked with, e-mailed with all were professional, well prepared and informed, and most respectful.

God Bless the NRA!

Jane Miller

Mayor Pro Tem

City of Oak Ridge

=========================================================

I want to thank all the citizens/voters on both sides of the issue who are here tonight and/or who contacted me and other council members by phone, e-mail and in person to provide your input.

I did my best to answer all e-mails and phone calls and if I missed responding to you, it was an oversight.

I am not a gun owner so this was a learning process for me, and I have researched this issue for many hours. The first thing I learned is that the permitted gun carriers must be undergo a backrground check, complete state approved training, be finger-printed and pay a fee.

When you ask someone do you want guns in parks – any sane person would say “NOâ€. But this is not really the question.

The real question here is, does prohibiting permit holders in parks make the parks less safe or more safe?

National Crime Statistics maintained by the U.S. Justice department show that about 83,000 permit holders effectively use firearms in defense of themselves or others each year - and most of those were during violent criminal attacks.

A particularly important factor is that the crime prevention is largely independent of permit holders actually being there - criminals can't tell who is and who isn't carrying so they are afraid to attack anyone. This is a huge public benefit.

Police can not be everywhere to prevent criminal attack and cannot guarantee citizens protection from it - also law enforcement officers are not legally required to provide protection for any individual citizen as upheld by the US Supreme court.

In a perfect world we would not need any guns – not even the police……but unfortunately, we have finally ADMITTED we have a CRIME problem in Oak Ridge.

The permit holders are not the ones we need to worry about. They do not brandish their guns or shoot up places they visit. For the most part you would never know they are carrying.

Although some try to demonize and portray these law abiding citizens as “nut cakes†and “vigil antesâ€. This is just not the case.

The Permit Holders who have contacted me are people I know and are known in the community – they are doctors, lawyers, engineers, veterans, work at Y-12, business owners, serve on our city boards, and are leaders in our community and other professional working people.

They are parents and people who own homes, pay taxes, and contribute to this community. They are childrens coaches, attend church and contribute financially to all our many charities. They are not “John Wayne†types looking for a “wild, wild west shoot outâ€.

Crime rates have dropped in every single state that adopted carry permits and crime rates have stayed the same or gone up in every state that did not.

Some of the e-mails I received are from citizens who worry about what might happen or what could happen. Some who would ban legally carried guns worry that accidental discharge from a dropped gun or other accident could cause collateral damage to people and even death. There is no evidence to show that responsible gun owners represent that risk at any significant level.

The argument of the bad behavior parents at the children’s sports parks is often used. Although this has not happened, maybe there should be a “code of conduct†for parents who attend these events or they be asked to leave. Or, if we don’t want guns at a Children’s events – post a sign at that event.

With no compelling evidence that responsible, licensed gun owners represent a danger to park patrons, the Second Amendment, the Tennessee Constitution and a host of laws and court rulings should be allowed to govern the issue. Let's follow laws, not the rule of fear.

Would this be enforceable by City of OR if the Council were to vote tonight to “Opt Outâ€?Note that TCA 39-17-1311 specifies the size (at least six inches (6) high and fourteen inches (14) wide, wording, and locations for signs would have to be posted – which are per subject TCA “all entrances to the property, any building or structure located on the property, such as restrooms, picnic areas, sports facilities, welcome centers, gift shops, playgrounds, swimming pools, restaurants and parking lotsâ€.

Such signs would also be very unsightly for our city parks and our city. Questions for City Manager:

1.Given the TCA explicit wording about where signs must be posted if we “opt out†-- How many signs would you post at Bissell Park - 25, 50, or 100?

2.How much would one sign cost the city to erect, labor and materials?

3.How many total signs – 200, 300 or ? - would you post city wide in Oak Ridge if the opt out passes tonight?

4.Do you have a cost estimate for such posting of these signs city-wide?

5.How would we enforce? We can’t but we will not have to worry about it because the gun permit folks are law abiding citizens.

Why are we going to post signs we cannot enforce when we cannot even enforce the laws now on the books – specifically illegal guns. Why don’t we try to enforce the laws we have rather than waste valuable resources on signs that apply to law-abiding citizens only? The opt out posting will only benefit the criminal element in Oak Ridge.

I kept a tally of citizen comments to me this past weekon this issue, and the result of citizen input that I received was 60 against opt out, and 40 for opt out. This is based on over 125+ total citizen inputs that I received.

The old bumper sticker says it best, "When Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Have Guns" – in Oak Ridge parks if this opt out passes.

Thank you.

[Guest bkelm18]

I really don't see how they will enforce this. Almost every single OR park has no boundaries, no fence, nothing. They would have to post signs around the entire perimeter of the park so that you can't enter the park without being in line of sight of a sign. And that's not gonna happen.

[Guest TurboniumOxide]

Now all we need is a list of all the criminals so we can send them newsletters.

[Guest bkelm18]

Heck, just drive through the Valley here and toss fliers out the window. I'm sure an up and coming crack dealer or 3 will see them.

[Guest TurboniumOxide]

Let's organize the community, I know if we just could...