Legal post in a restaurant

[Guest Traumaslave]

I have yet to see what is legal signage. Does it have to be the same as non ETOH? And with all this "anti" talk about bars, do they have to serve a specific amount of food or can we carry in a straight bar?

[Guest Isaac]

Any bar in the state of TN that serves liquor by the drink is technically a restaurant due to the way the ABC regulations work. There is no such thing as a bar liquor license. In order to be legally able to serve liquor, 51% of your sales must be from non-alcoholic sources.

While it seems to be rarely enforced, a bar that I ran karaoke in did get nailed by the ABC for it, and shut down.

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that the main reason that a few bar owners are so against the new law is that it may bring this requirement into the public spotlight and lead to more auditing and fines.

[Seaslug]

I'm too lazy to do the search, but the actual law that was passed states that carry will only be permitted in establishments that serve at least one meal per day and are open at least 5 days per week. Many nightclubs, for example, will remain off-limits as a result. Hope this helps.

[Fallguy]

The sign the ABC requires places to post does not prohibit carry. It simply says what the penalites for illegal carry are.

To prohibit carry a restaurant would have to post a 39-17-1359 sign.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/firearms-law-faq/21580-tca-39-17-1359-tennessee-prohibition-carry-notice.html

[Guest Isaac]

I'm too lazy to do the search, but the actual law that was passed states that carry will only be permitted in establishments that serve at least one meal per day and are open at least 5 days per week. Many nightclubs, for example, will remain off-limits as a result. Hope this helps.

Not that I frequent these places, but I kinda wonder how this works. If you are open during what would be considered a meal time, and serving food at that time, I would assume that would count as serving 1 meal. Many people eat dinner at 7 or 8pm, and I'd imagine that most places are open by then. And, while I could be wrong, I'm pretty sure that most are open at least 5 days a week.

Is it stated anywhere what constitutes a meal?

Clarification: by "these places" I mean nightclubs. I do frequent (and work in) bars every weekend, just not what most people would consider "night clubs"

Edited July 14, 2009 by Isaac
Clarification

[Guest JHatmaker]

I have yet to see what is legal signage. Does it have to be the same as non ETOH? And with all this "anti" talk about bars, do they have to serve a specific amount of food or can we carry in a straight bar?

Haha, it took me a second there...I was like, "what the f***?"

[Seaslug]

Not that I frequent these places, but I kinda wonder how this works. If you are open during what would be considered a meal time, and serving food at that time, I would assume that would count as serving 1 meal. Many people eat dinner at 7 or 8pm, and I'd imagine that most places are open by then. And, while I could be wrong, I'm pretty sure that most are open at least 5 days a week.

Is it stated anywhere what constitutes a meal?

I'm not aware of any specific legal definition of a "meal", so I'm guessing that even bar food counts. Therefore, places like Bailey's--which is open every day of the week--are good (so long as they don't post), whereas places like the Valarium are not.

[Guest Isaac]

Haha, it took me a second there...I was like, "what the f***?"

LOL, yeah, took me a minute to do a mental translation as well

[JayC]

I'm too lazy to do the search, but the actual law that was passed states that carry will only be permitted in establishments that serve at least one meal per day and are open at least 5 days per week. Many nightclubs, for example, will remain off-limits as a result. Hope this helps.

If they serve liquor they are required to be open at least 4 days a week... I'm curious how many businesses aren't open 5 but do have a liquor license... I suspect very few.

[Guest Traumaslave]

Haha, it took me a second there...I was like, "what the f***?"

Sstopp it. :koolaid:Haha!!! Didn't look at it that way but, ya got me. I ain't seen too many "other" bars 'round dees parts. "Not that there's anything wrong with that";)

[Guest HexHead]

Is it stated anywhere what constitutes a meal?

Here's the stated definition in the law....

( As used in this subdivision ©(3), “restaurant†means any public

place kept, used, maintained, advertised and held out to the public as a place

where meals are served and where meals are actually and regularly served, such

place being provided with adequate and sanitary kitchen and dining room

equipment, having employed therein a sufficient number and kind of employees

to prepare, cook and serve suitable food for its guests. At least one (1) meal per

day shall be served at least five (5) days a week, with the exception of holidays,

vacations and periods of redecorating, and the serving of such meals shall be the

principal business conducted.

[Guest HexHead]

I'm not aware of any specific legal definition of a "meal", so I'm guessing that even bar food counts. Therefore, places like Bailey's--which is open every day of the week--are good (so long as they don't post), whereas places like the Valarium are not.

Jar of pickled eggs on the bar doesn't count.

[Guest Frazsteve]

Check this out in Memphis Business Journal

Memphis Restaurant Association printing ‘No Guns’ decals

The Memphis Restaurant Association is having “No Guns†decals made for members who have chosen to prohibit the carrying of firearms into their business.

The law allowing firearms into establishments which sell alcohol went into effect Tuesday.

The Memphis Restaurant Association has a temporary decal that the organization’s members may print and post until the permanent decals arrive.

Tennessee’s legislature passed a bill earlier this summer making it legal for gun owners with carry permits to bring their guns into restaurants and other places that serve alcohol, as long the individual establishment allows it. Gov. Phil Bredesen vetoed the law, but his veto was overridden in the state house and senate.

Memphis Restaurant Association printing ?No Guns? decals - Memphis Business Journal:

[Fallguy]

You know with all of these "home made" signs being posted....it might be time for the AG to issue an opinion as to what constitutes substainly simillar. At least what HAS to be included in the sign.

[Guest Traumaslave]

Am I wrong that this is not legal signage?

OK, they want to cover their ass and not "allow" firearms in their establishment. Is this their way to CTOA and still give us a backdoor?

[Fallguy]

Am I wrong that this is not legal signage?

OK, they want to cover their ass and not "allow" firearms in their establishment. Is this their way to CTOA and still give us a backdoor?

In AG Opinion 07-43 the AG said that just a slash and gun sign was not enough for 39-17-1359.

As far as way for them CTOA, I personally have never thought an improper posting was the owner's attmept to look good towards antis but still allow legal carry. But many on here think that is a possiblity.

[RinTN]

Am I wrong that this is not legal signage?

OK, they want to cover their ass and not "allow" firearms in their establishment. Is this their way to CTOA and still give us a backdoor?

Is it legal? No.

Would I carry there? No. I'd prefer to give my money to someone else instead.

[JayC]

In AG Opinion 07-43 the AG said that just a slash and gun sign was not enough for 39-17-1359.

As far as way for them CTOA, I personally have never thought an improper posting was the owner's attmept to look good towards antis but still allow legal carry. But many on here think that is a possiblity.

Trust me, people who run these places and are posting aren't posting wrong to allow people to carry. The vast majority just don't bother to read the law, and think that a handgun with a slash sign will prevent people from legally carrying in their restaurants...

The vast majority of these business do not have the require no illegal carry sign required by the ABC law up either.

[Guest Hunter62]

The sign the ABC requires places to post does not prohibit carry. It simply says what the penalites for illegal carry are.

To prohibit carry a restaurant would have to post a 39-17-1359 sign.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/firearms-law-faq/21580-tca-39-17-1359-tennessee-prohibition-carry-notice.html

So for them to legally prohibit carry holders, they just need this verbage posted outside their door? Or do they need the gun with a slash through it as well?

I ask because it is a lot easier to spot a gun with a red slash as opposed to just some words on a door that generally has 15 other stickers on it as well.

Thanks in advance!

[Falcon1]

So for them to legally prohibit carry holders, they just need this verbage posted outside their door? Or do they need the gun with a slash through it as well?

I ask because it is a lot easier to spot a gun with a red slash as opposed to just some words on a door that generally has 15 other stickers on it as well.

Thanks in advance!

Yes, the verbiage is key. The picture is take it or leave it, but the words are the important part.

[Guest Hunter62]

Yes, the verbiage is key. The picture is take it or leave it, but the words are the important part.

Gotcha, I am glad I asked. In the past I have been just looking for the no gun sign. The places I have seen in the last couple of years have had the sign and some text below. I have seen a couple with just the sign, good to know I need to look out for places with just the text. Harder to notice just the text, but no biggie. I will just have to spend an extra 2-3 seconds at the door then.

Thanks for the info.

[TripleDigitRide]

So, if a bar doesn't serve food, you can't carry?

A "kitchen" is required, so microwave pizza and pretzels is out?

Edited July 15, 2009 by TripleDigitRide

[Fallguy]

So, if a bar doesn't serve food, you can't carry?

A "kitchen" is required, so microwave pizza and pretzels is out?

Yes, a kitchen is required as is wait staff, beyond just a bartender I believe.

[Guest jwb68]

I think the gun with the slash combined with "No guns on the premises" would fully satisfy the requirements of the act. I also think a sign that says "No guns on the premises" would also satisfy the requirements.

BTW-an opinion from the AG means absolutely nothing other than an attorney has looked at the issue and has rendered an opinion. It is not binding on any court.

[Oh Shoot]

I think the gun with the slash combined with "No guns on the premises" would fully satisfy the requirements of the act. I also think a sign that says "No guns on the premises" would also satisfy the requirements....

So, the legislature just wasted all these words when constructing the statute and they have no meaning?:

"The sign shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, premises or property and shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

PURSUANT TO § 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500)."

- OS