Ultimate replacement for my old Glock 23

[creeky]

On HK customer service...

I've never had a problem to call about, but I did send an email

to CS about buying an HK barrel for my compact in .40... that was about

a month ago. Never heard anything.

So it looks like I will go with a Jarvis barrel Huh? LOL!!

I have always heard that HK was Mil/LEO first and formost and that sometimes the civilian market (and customers) took a back seat. I wish that attitude would change. To me that is moe of a managment problem than an engineering problem. The products work very well. They just need better leadership and some refocusing for the American market. (IMHO)

[Marswolf]

to avoid battering or blowing up a 9mm with ammo which is marked exceeding SAAMI pressure specs, just to come within 100-150fps of a decent .357sig load. And to be able to practice with loads which compare to those hot carry loads for a reasonable price.

Same reason folks carry .357magnum instead of .38special +p when they want power.

I've shot SMG ammo from my Beretta 92SB. But I wouldn't want to do a steady diet of it.

Sure you can use hot loads in a 9mm, but the standard loads in a 357 SIG will still be 100 fps faster - and 200+ fps faster than standard 9mm loads.

The main advantage of a 9mm handgun is availability of ammo pretty much anywhere in the world. But some of that ammunition is pretty variable. Some is +P++ and some has "hard primers" that make a double-strike capability very desirable. That kind of ammunition is something a Glock can't handle.

A cop that wont own anything but a Glock.....Never seen that before

Glocks work for LE duty guns - but there are better choices.

BTW. I owned a G23. I don't now.

I did send an email to CS about buying an HK barrel for my compact in .40... that was about a month ago. Never heard anything.

H&K doesn't authorize changing the barrels by the user. And yes, they go for the professional market. They are Germanic. What can I say.

[The Rabbi]

I've shot SMG ammo from my Beretta 92SB. But I wouldn't want to do a steady diet of it.

Sure you can use hot loads in a 9mm, but the standard loads in a 357 SIG will still be 100 fps faster - and 200+ fps faster than standard 9mm loads.

The main advantage of a 9mm handgun is availability of ammo pretty much anywhere in the world. But some of that ammunition is pretty variable. Some is +P++ and some has "hard primers" that make a double-strike capability very desirable. That kind of ammunition is something a Glock can't handle.

Right, but who carries standard loads for self defense? You carry the hottest most effective ammo you can handle. At the range you shoot cheap standard pressure stuff, and that is a lot cheaper than .357sig.

And 100fps isn't much of a difference. And if you look at Winchester's site comparing the loads, the 9mm actually seems to perform better than the .357sig.

[dunndw]

And I thought we had another convert to the cult of the 1911....then you go and pickup another plastic fantastic :-)

[TGO David]

And I thought we had another convert to the cult of the 1911....then you go and pickup another plastic fantastic :-)

Oh... I've got a few 1911s. I consider owning tupperware to be missionary work, ministering to the lost and unenlightened.

[dunndw]

I can't preach too much...I picked up a XD45T last week...and it does shoot really well...but I always go back to 1911s

[Urse]

For the past few months I've been trying to find the ultimate replacement for my old Glock 23. I loved that Glock. It was the perfect size for carry but not so small that you couldn't take it to the range and shoot the heck out of it without becoming fatigued. Unfortunately for the Glock, however, I became enlightened to the flaws of Glock's .40SW design shortcomings (in my opinion) and decided that I wanted something else.

The fact that you are on a futile quest for a replacement of the ultimate carry gun speaks volumes. Play with your new toys spend more money than you need to. In the end whether you can admit it to yourself or not you will be back.

The Kimber 1911 may be the ultimate Man's Man firearm (in my opinion!) but it still wasn't the ideal candidate for carry. Plus, I didn't want to subject such a beautiful firearm to being drenched in sweat, accidentally being knocked against stuff, etc.

It is tool man get over it. Kimber's are nice but not exactly heirloom quality pieces.

[The Rabbi]

Urse, so you're saying that Glocks are basically the methamphetamine of the gun world?

[Marswolf]

Glocks are the opiate of the uninformed masses.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

In the end whether you can admit it to yourself or not you will be back.

I wouldn't know... but I'm pretty sure when people move out of a trailer park into a nice house, that they don't ever go back.

[Urse]

All the witty replies will not change the fact. In due time Tungsten will return to the Glock.

[fury2neon]

Congratulations on being Glock Free.

BTW I am Glock Free since 08-25-2007.

[TGO David]

All the witty replies will not change the fact. In due time Tungsten will return to the Glock.

Only if I can get a Spetznaz guy to train me to bake s'mores off of a hot Glock barrel.

I'm not saying I would kick a homeless Glock out of my safe. But I am saying that unless Glock comes up with something that takes handguns to the next level somehow, I don't see any reason to go back there and revisit old mistakes. The Glock 23 was a good firearm. It just lacked some things that I think a great firearm ought to have.

I'm quite happy with the H&K P2000. It's too early to call it for sure just yet, but I have a suspicion that this will join my AR15 and my Pro CDP II as one of those that just won't be for sale or trade anytime soon.

[Rightwinger]

What's a Glock?

(Kimber Compact Stainless II, Kimber Desert Warrior, Taurus PT 24/7, numerous EBR)

[Urse]

We shall see comrade.

[Marswolf]

Only if I can get a Spetznaz guy to train me to bake s'mores off of a hot Glock barrel.

I'm not sure if he cover the s'mores thing in this video or not..

http://smartflix.com/store/video/3115/Beyond-The-Firearm-AK4774-CQB

[molonlabetn]

Right, but who carries standard loads for self defense? You carry the hottest most effective ammo you can handle. At the range you shoot cheap standard pressure stuff, and that is a lot cheaper than .357sig.

And 100fps isn't much of a difference. And if you look at Winchester's site comparing the loads, the 9mm actually seems to perform better than the .357sig.

Winchester loads their Ranger .357sig anemically, likely so as not to compete too much with their +p+ Ranger 9mm... but even so, it launches its pill 100fps faster... The same velocity as the WWB .357sig practice loads.

For a true comparison, find a 'real' .357sig load, such as Double-Tap or Buffalo Bore... Then we're talking a nearly 300fps difference.

Or, my favorite load, the 147gr at 1300+ fps...

Seems to me that many folks like to denigrate the Sig cartridge from a closed mind... but show them similar numbers associated with .357magnum and all you'll hear is what a helluva cartridge it is, or how it's a 'for sure' load...

Sure, it's a bit more expensive to shoot (about $30 per case)... but no more so than .45acp or even .40s&w if you get the ammo from the right place. And, it's performance is certainly more in-line with those cartridges than the cheapest 9mm.

If I want to plink cheaply, I break out the .22... but if I want to practice, there is value in practicing with a load which approximates the recoil of an actual carry load... not some watered-down load which will desensitize me to how it will function in actual usage.

[The Rabbi]

The idea that Winchester would intentionally download their .357sig so as not to compete with another caliber is ludicrous, at best.

As for whether 100fps makes much of a difference in actual performance, color me skeptical.

The "real" .357SIG load in fact is the 125gr bullet going about 1350fps, as developed by Federal and SIG.

The goal of the 357 SIG project was to offer at least the level of performance of lighter .357 Magnum loads and +P/+P+ 9 mm Luger loads. The 357 SIG accomplishes this goal with a 125-grain (8.1 g) bullet. Using heavier bullets, however, shows the cartridge somewhat inferior to the original Magnum. The recoil of the 357 SIG cartridge is strong, often noticeably more so than the .40 S&W, but is not as harsh as full-power 10 mm Auto loads or the original .357 Magnum.

As to the Doubletap loads, one has to wonder if it was such a great idea, why don't Speer (maker of the bullet) and Federal (original designer of the cartridge) make a round like that? I assume the answer is that they tested it and discovered that accelerating a 9mm bullet way past what it was designed for is a bad idea.

I am not of the school of "bigger and faster equals better." I honestly don't care whether a round goes 100fps faster than another one. I do care that the round is optimized to obtain expansion and penetration without fragmentation.

I think the .357sig is a fine round. There is nothing wrong with it per se. It was designed with a particular purpose in mind and it seems to accomplish that. I would not feel inappropriately armed if I were to carry one. But I don't see that it will have staying power because I don't see it offering much advantage over what is already out there.

[Marswolf]

Some time ago, I heard about the 17 HMR and thought to myself - self...why would anyone want something like that. Then I read more about it and discovered that the little speedy thing was actually a pretty good round. So I went out and bought a rifle in that caliber and confirned that it is really nice and functional.

I've done pretty much the same thing for the 357 SIG cartridge. First thought was pretty much wondering what the big deal was. Just a faster 9mm. Then the more I studied it, the more I saw the advantages. You end up with a round with some advantages in speed, penetration and bullet flight over the 9mm and far better ballistics than the 40 S&W with increased penetration.

Like any choice of round, there are tradeoffs. The average cop doesn't need the additional penetration over a 40. The average soldier doesn't need the extra bullet speed over a 9mm. But if you live on the edge between those disciplines, or in a LE realm where you need the penetration, the 357 SIG makes a lot of sense. And a gun designed for the characteristics of the round makes sense too.

[creeky]

In my twenties (while handloading even more so) I could quote feet per sec, muzzle velocity, etc for calibers. I read everything I could. Always looking for the next "perfect" caliber to come along and be "the standard".

Then I started reading more on the history of developement of certain calibers and loads, how everyone has been looking for that magical combination... .44 special .41 magnum, 9mm +P+, .357 maximum, 10mm, 40SW, .357sig, 45 Gap... "Dumb slow Big Bullets" vs. "Light ultra fast"... blah, blah, blah...

Then I read some stuff about how when Auto-Loaders became the norm for law enforcement, bullets fired at the scene of an incident went up, and accuracy went waaaaay down.

Accuracy has stopped more people intent on doing harm than anything. Also I think it's true that the better "Stopping" power the more room for error you have on shot placment. It seems that people are looking for a caliber and load combo that will make up for either poor accuracy, or a lose of accuracy that is affected by being under "Stress".

I have carried three weapons personally, in three different calibers...

.38 snub nose, no hammer - Shot like a dream, and was pleasent to carry.

(Oh why did I sell it, oh why?!?! )

.45 ACP Single action 3" barrel, weighing in at 36 oz. - Shot great, but very heavy...

.357 sig HK Compact - My current. A little bulky, but I like all the same.

I chose the .357 sig this time for a few reasons. Stopping power online with the 357 mag, bottle neck design seems like add to flawless loading into the barrel without jamming and I got a great deal on it.

So do I regret getting the .357 sig? Only when I buy the ammo.

But that feeling leaves me quickly on the range. I can hit with it, and the recoil is easily managable. (In fact my wife qualified with it.)

So the point of this ramble? (There is a point?!?!) Personally I no longer care about a few FPS differences, or stuff like that either. What gives me confidence in my chosen caliber is when I see the holes in the target. Granted they could be closer... but I'm working on that part.

[*The above ramble is highly debatable and protected under H.R 48376 "Freedom to Ramble Act", and it's sister Bill H.R. 48376.b "Just Another Stupid Opinion Digital Millenium Act".]

[The Rabbi]

This is always the issue with calibers like that. Is it really better than what's out there? The .400 Cor Bon offered advantages over whatever was around. So did the 9x21 or 9x23. So did the 10mm. But none of them was fundamentally any better than what was already around. So they are relegated to a few hobbyists.

It is like that with rifle calibers. Every rifle caliber worth having was pretty much invented by 1917. Everything else is either a little faster, slower, thinner, smaller, fatter, or whatever than what is already existing. And while there is some improvement at the extreme margin, so few people need that kind of performance at that level that the caliber becomes obscure.

[TGO David]

Minor update...

I traded the V2 (LEM) for a V3 (DA/SA) today. Dan @ Hero Gear was nice enough to take me to the nearby range to let me kick the tires a bit and see if I liked the V3 any better. I did.

The trigger on the V3 is a lot more predictable to me. I realize that this boils down to both personal preference and training yourself to adjust to the LEM trigger, but the LEM didn't pass muster in the preference department and I guess I'm getting too set in my ways to make myself adjust to the LEM when another variant was far easier for me to use.

I can't say enough good things about Hero Gear. They've taken care of me every time I've been in there and I've seen that they do the same for everyone who walks through the door.

Thanks guys.

[Guest GetoffTheX]

Quote:

I traded the V2 (LEM) for a V3 (DA/SA) today. Dan @ Hero Gear was nice enough to take me to the nearby range to let me kick the tires a bit and see if I liked the V3 any better. I did.

This is the beginning of the realization of Glock perfection.

The use of reloaded ammo is not a Glock only disclaimer. All manufacturers put that in their manuals because they cant control how hot someone loads their ammo.

You can get into trouble running lead through ANY polygonal barrel though.

I wish someone would trade me a Glock for this POS 92FS Ive got

[Urse]

Easy, they do not like that kind of talk around here even if it is true.

[TGO David]

This is the beginning of the realization of Glock perfection.

I have owned two such pieces of "perfection" in the past. I'm not as opposed to them as it may seem, but I don't foresee owning another in the near future unless something really cool comes out with the Glock name stamped on the side of it. Like.. .a single stack polymer .45ACP of the same height and length of the G23.

If they made that, I'd be all up on it.