Ultimate replacement for my old Glock 23

[TGO David]

For the past few months I've been trying to find the ultimate replacement for my old Glock 23. I loved that Glock. It was the perfect size for carry but not so small that you couldn't take it to the range and shoot the heck out of it without becoming fatigued. Unfortunately for the Glock, however, I became enlightened to the flaws of Glock's .40SW design shortcomings (in my opinion) and decided that I wanted something else.

So I tried the Smith & Wesson M&P 40c and really liked it, but it was a little too small for me to just thoroughly enjoy shooting a lot at the range. Other than that, I had zero complaints about the M&P 40c... but I'm picky and I knew there had to be something out there that would satisfy me all the way around.

Along the way, I picked up a Kimber Pro CDP II. I never intended for that gun to see ritualistic carry but it's served me in that capacity for a few weeks now. Very light, super potent cartridge... just still a hair too tall in the grip area for the title of "Ultimate Concealment Gun". I tend to worry that the grip is sticking out the back of my shirt, printing badly, whenever I wear it.

The Kimber 1911 may be the ultimate Man's Man firearm (in my opinion!) but it still wasn't the ideal candidate for carry. Plus, I didn't want to subject such a beautiful firearm to being drenched in sweat, accidentally being knocked against stuff, etc.

Then... I became truly enlightened. I discovered the beauty of the HK P2000 handgun and the LEM trigger. I researched, I measured, I compared. I discovered that the P2000 is practically identical in every dimension to the Glock 23. I discovered that the LEM trigger is badassery on a whole new level. I finally found a shop where I could hold one and drool on it, then I had Joe at Hero Gear hunt one down for me!

Things that really impress me about this handgun:

• Superior fit and finish
  
• Rugged Hostile Environment (HE) black coating
  
• Fully supported chamber design
  
• Recoil buffer designed specifically for the .40SW cartridge
  
• LEM trigger with second-strike capability
  
• Semi-external hammer
  
• Trademark H&K "No Compromises" engineering and durability
  
• Vikings carried them into battle against the Moors

I can't prove the latter, but you can't disprove it either.

I've got some Meprolight night sights coming and a Comp-Tac MTAC leather / kydex hybrid holster in the works so this will soon become my daily companion. I have no worries about it shrugging off sweat and humidity without corroding, or going BANG when I pull the trigger.

And last but not least... it looks über-tacticool. And we all know that if you can't look good while going into battle, then you might as well just stay home.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

Nice piece Tungsten. It looks like it resembles the M&P style.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Very nice... but I'll see your P2000 with my P2000sk, and raise you with my X2 laser/light module.

[TGO David]

I've got a M3X Streamlight that gets stuffed onto the end of the P2000 for bed-time duty, but I've nearly met my limit of Mall Ninja photo posting for the day.

[The Rabbi]

Nice gun and all.

I just never saw the appeal of the H&K. I had a USP9 through the shop and took it out and shot it. It was OK. Single action was pretty crisp. Accuracy was good. But that's all it was, OK. And it's a plastic gun. I guess I'm just a SIGsnob when it comes to auto-loaders.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

I actually own a Sig P229, .357SIG, Two-Tone.

I replaced my P228, 9mm, with it (sold it). However, that P2000sk has taken over carry-duty as it's a lot lighter and slimmer than every Sig I've owned or shot. Sig makes excellent firearms and they're still a favorite of mine to shoot... but they tend to make guns that are much "fatter" than I'd like to strap on and carry all day... which I have done... carry the P229 in a Galco SOB holster.

I just prefer the HK P2000sk in my Bulman TSAP holster as my carry weapon... but I still love my Sig, no matter how chunky it may be.

Both are excellent brands, and top-notch cratfsmanship.

[TGO David]

Nice gun and all.

I just never saw the appeal of the H&K. I had a USP9 through the shop and took it out and shot it. It was OK. Single action was pretty crisp. Accuracy was good. But that's all it was, OK. And it's a plastic gun. I guess I'm just a SIGsnob when it comes to auto-loaders.

I had a USP40 back when they first came out. BIG brick of a gun. Loved it, hated carrying it! I really hadn't given H&K another thought until I started hearing more about the P2000... and initially I thought that the SK was the only model P2000 that existed. Color me stupid.

Ultimately I'm sure it starts to become a Ford vs. Chevy argument when you get into the realm of H&K and SIG Sauer. You pick the one that appeals to you the most and run with it.

My problem with SIG is that the good ones (all metal) tend to be too heavy and chunky for me to want to carry them. The P239 is the only real exception to that rule, and then you start getting to a point where the limited ammo capacity of that platform would throw it into a comparison battle with the 1911. And for me, the 1911 is gonna win.

[The Rabbi]

Two words: P239 (w/ optional 10 rd mag), P225.

And yeah. I think 8 rounds are plenty for anyone. But that's coming from a guy who carries "six for sure."

[Guest Steelharp]

Tungsten... please do ramble a bit about the LEM trigger. I've only heard about them, never felt one. What does it compare to?

[creeky]

I really like my USP Compact. At the time I bought it, it was the only real HK option (well except for the P7M8) for a concealed carry. I have read much about the P2000 and the "SK"... also teh LEM is tempting.

Fondling them in the stores I can see how comfortable they would be to carry over my Compact.

Congratulations!

[TGO David]

The LEM trigger feels somewhat like a Glock, XD or M&P striker-fired trigger in that it is pre-cocked by racking the slide or by the action of the slide cycling. The big difference is that unlike those firearms, it also has the ability to fully cock and release the hammer like a double action firearm. This is their "second strike" capability that lets you deliver a forceful second try at a dull primer should it fail to fire on the first pull.

I've always trained to tap & rack in the case of a dud round and would probably continue to do so. But the second strike capability is a nice tool and, as a former boss once said, one more "stick in our bag" of tricks.

Some good reading on the LEM trigger can be found here:

http://www.outdoors.net/site/features/feature.aspx+Forum+Firearms+ArticleCode+901

[TGO David]

Two words: P239 (w/ optional 10 rd mag), P225.

And yeah. I think 8 rounds are plenty for anyone. But that's coming from a guy who carries "six for sure."

I like the look of the P220 Carry... but again, if I'm going to be round-count challenged, I'd rather be carrying a 1911 Commander.

[fury2neon]

It is a very nice piece.

[TGO David]

Had a chance to put a few rounds through it today at On Target. Initial thoughts...

• Geez H&K puts a lot of grease in these guns at the factory
  
• Shoots about 2" low at 7 yds and did so consistently with three shooters
  
• Has a lot less recoil than my M&P 40 did

I'm not going to gripe about it shooting low. For starters, it may not shoot low after I change out the sights for the Meprolights. Second, the sights may be designed for POA and POI to coincide at greater distance. At 7 yds the projectile really isn't even starting to rise on it's ballistic curve yet. Third, as long as I know where it hits (and it hit there with great repeatability) then I can accommodate for that with my POA.

Awesome little gun! I'm very pleased with it.

[Marswolf]

I think you made a good choice.

I keep looking at them and will probably end up with a P2000 in 357 SIG to replace both the USP 40 and Beretta 92.

I had a SIG P220 for a while. Liked it OK, but just didn't think it was special. I really want to like SIG better, but H&K is top of the line as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest looneeetunes]

i think i read somewhere the moors carried hipoints.

[creeky]

i think i read somewhere the moors carried hipoints.

Uhhhh... I think that was "the 'Doors' carried hipoints..." Specifically

when Jim Morrison. I think he was arrested for whip'n it out during a concert.

First true example of "open carry".

[The Rabbi]

Uhhhh... I think that was "the 'Doors' carried hipoints..." Specifically

when Jim Morrison. I think he was arrested for whip'n it out during a concert.

First true example of "open carry".

No, I think it was the Coors who carried HiPoints, maintaining their reputation as defenders of freedom and cheapskates.

[The Rabbi]

I think you made a good choice.

I keep looking at them and will probably end up with a P2000 in 357 SIG to replace both the USP 40 and Beretta 92.

I had a SIG P220 for a while. Liked it OK, but just didn't think it was special. I really want to like SIG better, but H&K is top of the line as far as I'm concerned.

Don't they make the gun in 9mm? Why would you want a .357SIG? I have Winchester Ranger 9mm ammo. It is 127gr +P+, 1250 fps out of the muzzle. That has to compare favorably to anything in .357SIG.

[Guest Fred LE FI]

For the past few months I've been trying to find the ultimate replacement for my old Glock 23. I loved that Glock. It was the perfect size for carry but not so small that you couldn't take it to the range and shoot the heck out of it without becoming fatigued. Unfortunately for the Glock, however, I became enlightened to the flaws of Glock's .40SW design shortcomings (in my opinion) and decided that I wanted something else.

Then... I became truly enlightened. I discovered the beauty of the HK P2000 handgun and the LEM trigger. I researched, I measured, I compared. I discovered that the P2000 is practically identical in every dimension to the Glock 23. I discovered that the LEM trigger is badassery on a whole new level. I finally found a shop where I could hold one and drool on it, then I had Joe at Hero Gear hunt one down for me!

Things that really impress me about this handgun:

• Superior fit and finish
  
• Rugged Hostile Environment (HE) black coating
  
• Fully supported chamber design
  
• Recoil buffer designed specifically for the .40SW cartridge
  
• LEM trigger with second-strike capability
  
• Semi-external hammer
  
• Trademark H&K "No Compromises" engineering and durability
  
• Vikings carried them into battle against the Moors

Everything is a compromise to some degree. In my considered and well-qualified opinion, there is no replacement for the G23 - it requires less compromise than any other CARRY gun. Lemme guess, you don't like the not-fully-supported chamber. Me personally, I couldn't care less; Never had a KB, never seen a KB, shoot the bejeezus out of a G23.

H&K is good gear. Ask some questions about their less than stellar reputation for customer service to individuals as opposed to LEOs. I wouldn't have a personal H&K on a bet for that reason alone.

Fred

[TGO David]

Everything is a compromise to some degree. In my considered and well-qualified opinion, there is no replacement for the G23 - it requires less compromise than any other CARRY gun. Lemme guess, you don't like the not-fully-supported chamber. Me personally, I couldn't care less; Never had a KB, never seen a KB, shoot the bejeezus out of a G23.

H&K is good gear. Ask some questions about their less than stellar reputation for customer service to individuals as opposed to LEOs. I wouldn't have a personal H&K on a bet for that reason alone.

Fred

Had a Glock, liked the Glock, didn't care for the fact that you absolutely should not ever shoot reloads through it. Didn't care for the ****ty ergonomics of it. Didn't care for the compromises that Glock made for the sake of "reliability".

Glock's idea of reliability is almost Soviet in design. The AK47 is not an elegant weapon. It's the automatic rifle equivalent of a pipe bomb. It gets the job done but it does so by having loose, sloppy tolerances so that you can pour mud through the action and still get it to go bang when you light the fuse... er... pull the trigger. That pretty much describes the Glock design philosophy to the tee.

The mostly unsupported chamber allows a Glock to gobble up practically any ammunition; even ammunition that has no business being in that chamber. It's what allows them to cycle regardless of what you feed them and it's also what results in blown apart frames and bruised or bloodied hands.

Me, I don't shoot many reloads yet but with the rising price of ammo I am sure I will start doing so soon. I'll pay attention to the way I dope the rounds, but mistakes can and do happen. Even with factory ammo. And when that happens, I'd prefer that my handugn take the brunt of the damage rather than my flesh.

As for H&K's customer service... I've heard bad stories about everyone and I've heard good stories the same. One of the BEST customer service departments that I have ever dealt with is the one that Smith & Wesson has. Problem is, a few of their early production M&P automatics tend to get a lot of interaction with those service departments. If I never have to call H&K for something, that's going to be awesome. If I do, then I'll wait and see how their service department treats me before I get worked up over nothing.

In the meantime, I'll have personal confidence in my sidearm and that's really all that matters. Well, that and the fact that it's not a Glock.

[TGO David]

Oh, and least I forget...

There are quite a few nice things about Glocks. Rather than have anyone think that I am anti-Glock I will state for the record that Glock has done a lot to revolutionize the firearms industry over the past 20 years. They created a product that got a lot of other manufacturers thinking about how they could improve upon their own products, and it served as a catalyst to improve the state of things considerably.

They also make a good duty weapon that is affordable enough that ill funded law enforcement agencies can purchase in volume. As a good duty weapon, not much is required in terms of care or maintenance for a Glock. Those same sloppy loose tolerances that I criticize makes the Glock churn along happily even though the officer it was issued to may never so much as blow the pocket lint out of it or run a lightly oiled patch through the bore.

Problem is... my H&K is just as rugged and not near as sloppy. H&K just took a different approach with their engineering and built a weapon that can shrug off abuse, be ridiculously reliable and be constructed with tighter tolerances and more of an eye toward quality.

Glock's innovation stopped 20 years ago. What ground breaking thing have they done since then? Oooo... the 21SF got a shorter pull length and an ambidextrous safety. I'm sure you could argue "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but there ought to be some evolution in their firearms other than adding finger grips and tactical rails (3rd Gen) since the other companies have done those things and a lot more since.

[Marswolf]

Don't know much more I could add to those posts.

[molonlabetn]

Don't they make the gun in 9mm? Why would you want a .357SIG? I have Winchester Ranger 9mm ammo. It is 127gr +P+, 1250 fps out of the muzzle. That has to compare favorably to anything in .357SIG.

to avoid battering or blowing up a 9mm with ammo which is marked exceeding SAAMI pressure specs, just to come within 100-150fps of a decent .357sig load. And to be able to practice with loads which compare to those hot carry loads for a reasonable price.

Same reason folks carry .357magnum instead of .38special +p when they want power.

[BimmerFreak]

Everything is a compromise to some degree. In my considered and well-qualified opinion, there is no replacement for the G23 - it requires less compromise than any other CARRY gun. Lemme guess, you don't like the not-fully-supported chamber. Me personally, I couldn't care less; Never had a KB, never seen a KB, shoot the bejeezus out of a G23.

H&K is good gear. Ask some questions about their less than stellar reputation for customer service to individuals as opposed to LEOs. I wouldn't have a personal H&K on a bet for that reason alone.

Fred

A cop that wont own anything but a Glock.....Never seen that before

Im going to start giving out a free package of Kool-Aid to every new Glock owner that comes in the store...that way they have something to drink when the log into GlockTalk

**I will say that if I HAD to own a Glock...The 23 would be the model I would choose.