Improper Postage

[Guest drlove]

New member. Hi everyone. SO...I have always thought that if a place is improperly posted that you could carry unless the owner asked you to leave. Well I found this TN AG opinion on the matter. The way I read this is you could not carry even if improperly posted. What do yall think?

LINK:http://tennessee.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2007/OP/OP148.pdf

Here is the opinion:

5. Can the holder of a valid handgun carry permit be prosecuted for criminal trespass in

violation of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-14-405 if the owner has not posted a sign that satisfies the

requirements of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359 but has ordered the permit holder to leave the

property because he or she is armed and the permit holder has then refused to vacate the premises?

5. Yes. The holder of a valid handgun carry permit can be prosecuted for criminal trespass

in violation of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-14-405 if the owner has not posted a sign that satisfies the

requirements of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359 but has ordered the permit holder to leave the

property because he or she is armed, or for any other lawful reason, and the permit holder has then

refused to vacate the premises.

The crime of criminal trespass is defined in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-14-405(a). It states,

in relevant part:

A person commits the crime of criminal trespass who, knowing the person does not

have the owner’s effective consent to do so, enters or remains on property or a

portion thereof. Knowledge that the person did not have the owner’s effective

consent may be inferred where notice entering or remaining is given by:

* * *

(1) Personal communication to the person by the owner or by someone with

apparent authority to act for the owner;

* * *

(3) posting reasonably likely to come to the attention of intrudersState v. Ash, 12 S.W.3d 800 (Tenn. Crim. App. 1999), is instructive. As that case shows, the

gravamen of the offense is the entry onto or continued occupation of property after the owner has

informed the defendant that he or she is not permitted to enter or remain on the property.

The sign requirement set forth in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359, read in light of Tenn. Code

Ann. § 39-14-405 and Ash, provides the means to establish guilty knowledge on the part of a

defendant. Such signs, if conspicuously posted at the entrance or entrances to the property, provide

objective proof that persons in possession of firearms, including handgun carry permit holders, are

not welcome and their entry is against the consent of the owner. A handgun carry permit holder who

enters a posted property could therefore be subject to prosecution for criminal trespass.

The failure to post signs means that it might be more difficult in a given case to prosecute

a handgun carry permit holder because the permit holder could argue that he or she lacked guilty

knowledge. The text of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-14-405, however, indicates that the holder of such

a permit could become subject to prosecution if he or she refused to leave after the owner has

directed him or her to vacate the premises.

[Guest bkelm18]

5. Yes. The holder of a valid handgun carry permit can be prosecuted for criminal trespass

in violation of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-14-405 if the owner has not posted a sign that satisfies the

requirements of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359 but has ordered the permit holder to leave the property because he or she is armed, or for any other lawful reason, and the permit holder has then refused to vacate the premises.

You would not be charged with carrying a firearm where you weren't supposed to, you'd be charged with trespassing if the owner asked you to leave and you refused.

[Guest drlove]

Such signs, if conspicuously posted at the entrance or entrances to the property, provide

objective proof that persons in possession of firearms, including handgun carry permit holders, are

not welcome and their entry is against the consent of the owner. A handgun carry permit holder who

enters a posted property could therefore be subject to prosecution for criminal trespass.

What about this??

[Guest bkelm18]

If the signs are proper yes, if they are improper, no. The AG has issued a couple opinions about what is proper and what is not. A simple handgun with a slash through it is not proper. Secondly, criminal trespass is a misdemeanor, and you cannot be arrested for a misdemeanor unless it happens in the presence of a LEO.

[Guest Risky Ruger]

It would be counter productive to allow us to carry and give us structure with signs and such then prosecute us anyway. I think you may be reading into it more than necessary. AT LEAST I HOPE SO.

Like I said, its pointless to make a rule that states proper posting has to be made then prsecute us for carrying in an improperly posted area.

[Guest drlove]

I hope I am too...it seems very counter productive.

[Fallguy]

bkelm18 has it right.

If a place is properly posted, then you could be charged the minute you carry past a posted sign.

If a place is improperly posted or not at all, you are not violating the law just by carry.

But the owner can tell you to leave, if you don't you are trespassing.

If the owner tells you to leave and not come back armed, you could be charged with trespassing for coming back later while armed. (Even if they are still not posted)

If the owner tells you to never come back period (armed or not) you could be charged with trespassing just for coming back period.

On a side note.....when I first saw the thread title, I thought it had to do with mailing something.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Fallguy

[dunndw]

...just smile and wave boys...smile and wave

[Guest danxd45]

bkelm18 has it right.

On a side note.....when I first saw the thread title, I thought it had to do with mailing something.

LOL Me too....

I was thinking "Dang! stamps have gone up again!"