What we're up against - the anti crowd

[Falcon1]

Does anyone have any proof that someone OC'ing actually becomes a target? Has anyone OC'ing ever been targeted during a crime?

Curious, just asking. I don;t OC but I see this argument all the time. I don't recall ever hearing of a situation where someone OC'iong was targeted.

I don't OC either (most in my community would not be happy with a public school teacher OCing), but I also don't ever recall a situation where an OCer was specifically targeted. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I haven't heard of one.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Falcon1

[Guest SUNTZU]

If those guys had CC'ed you'd never know your friend was a huge feline. I just switched to IWB, but my shirt constantly shows my sidearm. I OC occasionally at my ghetto apartments and no one bothers me. Its hard for me to understand why some people say that racking a shotgun when someone breaks into your home is a good idea since it might scare a burglar away, but at the same time figure you need to keep your gun hidden away while out and about. I'm not talking in a drop leg uber tactical holster, but either OWB or IWB with pistol in sight.

I can see the tactical reasons for CC, and I can understand someone personally deciding based upon what they are taught, but to say that OC'ing made this guy go crazy about restaurant carry is BS, it just brought his feelings about guns to the light of day. That is where our focus needs to be with this type of person. Educate them, don't hide away to keep from hurting their feelings.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I won't let hurting someone's feelings keep me from defending myself. Keep good situational awareness, and good luck, or should I say, good training?

[JayC]

Does anyone have any proof that someone OC'ing actually becomes a target? Has anyone OC'ing ever been targeted during a crime?

Curious, just asking. I don;t OC but I see this argument all the time. I don't recall ever hearing of a situation where someone OC'iong was targeted.

The only stats I've ever seen on the subject involve police officers and the vast majority were in uniform when they were targeted and/or had their weapon taken from them.

I don't think there have been enough cases of plain clothes officers and HCP holders loosing their weapons to make anything from the stats at this point.

Common sense says you're a bigger target, but the problem with common sense is it's often wrong... I'd like to see some real stats on the subject before stating for a fact it puts you at greater risk.

[Guest tnvolfan]

It is just so hard for me to understand how he, or anyone, thought it was fine if they were LEOs, but if they were not... panic and horror. Also the upset just because he saw them as opposed had he not.

Something else that even confuses me more, is fellow HCP holders that regularly carry, being uncomfortable when seeing someone else with a handgun.

Anyway...funny how we was ok at first, then did such a 180.

I believe the public is OK with LEOs and their weapons because (1) they know they have received a fair amount of training in order to defend the public with their weapon and (2) we have all grown up with seeing it, so we're used to it.

It is the training issue, or lack thereof, which causes me to be uncomfortable. I have shot my handgun(s) at Coal Creek at least once a week, sometimes more, since I seriously started the sport back in November 2008. I got my handcarry permit at the end of January 2009. I have been told that I shoot my handguns more than most LEOs. My training is not as extensive, of course, but the problem is not every person who has a carry permit practices with any degree of regularity. I wish everyone did. I've seen folks with their permits that had problems handling guns, and to be honest, it REALLY makes me uncomfortable. Now is that same person going to be openly carrying their firearm? Probably not. It's just that there is such a variance in abilities. True, LEOs have a variance in abilities, too, but hopefully, not as extreme, and hopefully, not as much as those of us with the carry permits. Maybe that's just me daydreaming. I guess if I see guys carrying their guns openlly, I think maybe they are kinda "showing off" and not using a great amount of wisdom given the circumstances. I do believe you are better off to keep it concealed; besides, I think it gives you an offensive advantage if something bad does occur. But before I make anybody too mad, I will tell you that I believe the general public is safer BECAUSE there are folks like us who are carrying out there. It will take time for people to get used to those who openly carry. But there will always be idiots out there who see them and decide to provoke them just because they are openly carrying their firearms. That's why I get uncomfortable.

[Guest SigVol]

The world is a troubling place for small minds...

[Guest TackleberryTom]

Strange... if OCers automatically make themselves the first target, then wouldn't that make you feel more safe knowing that you'd have time to react / flee when the SHTF?

You should all thank me, I am a walking target and diversion for all the BG's.

This "tactical advantage" of CC makes me think you guys watch too much tv. If it was so much better all the LEOs would be doing it. In fact the SWAT teams need the most tactical advantage of them all....how do you CC an AR-15?

[SHbicycle]

My wife and kids know better than to jump up and run over to get in between 2 people shooting at each other. Well I guess if you watch a lot of TV you have been trained to do that.

[S&WForty]

Lotta good replies. I knew this would turn into OC vs CC. Everything else does.

I'll happily admit before I got bit by the gun bug and learned all about permits and the law, if I saw someone open carrying, I'd either assume they were a cop, or I'd be a little worried. It's all about what you know. The comments about people being conditioned by what they see on TV is spot on!

And...

If those guys had CC'ed you'd never know your friend was a huge feline.

IS THE QUOTE OF THE THREAD!

[Guest SUNTZU]

Better to find out now than when you need someone watching your back. Seriously.

[Guest Muttling]

You should all thank me, I am a walking target and diversion for all the BG's.

This "tactical advantage" of CC makes me think you guys watch too much tv. If it was so much better all the LEOs would be doing it. In fact the SWAT teams need the most tactical advantage of them all....how do you CC an AR-15?

Different missions call for different weapons and different carry techniques. A SWAT team is called in to confront or to intimidate into surrender an armed enemy. I am not a SWAT team and I would never consider my mission of personal defense even remotely related to their mission.

The same holds true for a uniformed officer. His mission is to confront criminal elements and blatant displays of overwhelming force help him to reduce his need to use force. That is not my mission.

Few people can carry 24/7 and I'm certainly not one of them. I don't want the enemy to know when I am and when I am not carrying as he chooses the time/place of the conflict. If he knows, he will choose when I'm unarmed.

CC is the RIGHT choice for my mission. What do you consider your mission to be? Why is it that you compare the carry requirements of your mission to the carry requirements of a SWAT mission?

[Guest tnvolfan]

I'm going to have to back out of this thread because I've got to be out of town for a few days. There are many good points being stated here, and I really like the challenge that a good discussion like this brings out. I'm so thankful for the actions of the 2009 Tennessee Assembly - for once it seems like gun owners have a positive force working for us. I don't want to lose the ground that has been gained here. I like the idea of not having to lock up my gun in the car if I want to have dinner in a restaurant that sells alcoholic drinks, since most of them do nowadays. I am just concerned that if enough people complain to restaurant owners about those who OC, these owners (along with those who complain) will complain to legislators, and we'll wind up losing the ground we've gained. I know it's difficult to conceal in the summertime, but there are lightweight vests and jackets that can be worn, and they don't cost anymore than a box or two of ammo. There are ankle holsters and pocket holsters for smaller guns, and frontal holsters for lots of different firearms -- you all know what's available. But aside from all this, I do want to say that without question, the folks that I've met who are part of this sport, are fine people, and I'm glad there are a bunch of us out there! There are even six people who are carrying (concealed) in my Sunday School class of 30! Anyway, I wish everyone here the best, and hope that whether they OC or CC, the important thing is to CARRY! Enough said from me! Best regards to all!

[Guest HexHead]

I'm gonna continue to CC, but I'm not going to be as concerned about printing going forward. It'll be nice to wear some more of my larger pistols again.

[Punisher84]

I believe the public is OK with LEOs and their weapons because (1) they know they have received a fair amount of training in order to defend the public with their weapon and (2) we have all grown up with seeing it, so we're used to it.

But there will always be idiots out there who see them and decide to provoke them just because they are openly carrying their firearms. That's why I get uncomfortable.

Look I'm as pro-cop as it gets, but have you ever shot around a cop? Most agencies qualify once a year and there requirements aren't exactly strict.

I don't mean to be condescending or rude so please don't take it as that, but you sound misinformed,uninformed, or you're just trying to pull out straw man arguments because you disagree with OC. There is no evidence supporting anything you've stated throughout the thread about people who OC being more prone to anything.

We need to support everyone's rights or we lose them.

[Guest Muttling]

Look I'm as pro-cop as it gets, but have you ever shot around a cop? Most agencies qualify once a year and there requirements aren't exactly strict.

I've not shot around many cops, but those I have shot with are good....danged good!!!!!

What you describe is what lead to Bonnie and Clyde shooting their way out of a number of engagements with police. The claim in the day was that they were outgunned with revolvers against automatics, but I find that argument hard to buy when police outnumbered bad guys by as much as 10 to 1. An automatic doesn't help if you can't hit your targets. Police today have a nasty habit of hitting their targets.

[G27]

Look I'm as pro-cop as it gets, but have you ever shot around a cop? Most agencies qualify once a year and there requirements aren't exactly strict.

I don't mean to be condescending or rude so please don't take it as that, but you sound misinformed,uninformed, or you're just trying to pull out straw man arguments because you disagree with OC. There is no evidence supporting anything you've stated throughout the thread about people who OC being more prone to anything.

We need to support everyone's rights or we lose them.

Yah, at one of my ranges of choice the manager claims the absolute worst shooters are the local PD. He says they commonly replace lights and fixtures, etc. He told me they get less damage, round for round, from the HCP test takers.

I know there are tons of LEO's who take the responsibility to train seriously, but to expect that most/all of them are better trained than most/all HCP holders is quite possibly a stretch...

[Guest Muttling]

Yah, at one of my ranges of choice the manager claims the absolute worst shooters are the local PD. He says they commonly replace lights and fixtures, etc.

They have their range lights exposed to the firing line???? Who's the bigger fool....the shooter or the one who designed the range?

[G27]

They have their range lights exposed to the firing line???? Who's the bigger fool....the shooter or the one who designed the range?

Err, if you aim 90° from the target, yah...

[Punisher84]

They have their range lights exposed to the firing line???? Who's the bigger fool....the shooter or the one who designed the range?

I'd imagine the shooter since you quite literally have to aim FAAAAAAR above your head to shoot out the lights.

It's not saying all cops are bad shots, I'm just saying I know several people who can out shoot some guys on the MPD TAC squad and they have only had "civilian training".

The argument that cops have better control over their weapons than the average trained citizen is about the same as cops should be able to carry where we can't because they are privileged. I don't buy it or agree with it.

[Guest Muttling]

The argument that cops have better control over their weapons than the average trained citizen is about the same as cops should be able to carry where we can't because they are privileged. I don't buy it or agree with it.

I am yet to have me to the cop who hasn't put 1000 rounds through his side arm during his training.

I am also yet to have met the cop who wasn't required to qualify under a stress shoot.

Do you even KNOW what a stress shoot is? Have you ever qualified under a stress shoot?

When the **** hits the fan, I will trust a cop before I trust you. Get over it.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Easy, Trigger.

[Fallguy]

I am yet to have me to the cop who hasn't put 1000 rounds through his side arm during his training.

I am also yet to have met the cop who wasn't required to qualify under a stress shoot.

Do you even KNOW what a stress shoot is? Have you ever qualified under a stress shoot?

When the **** hits the fan, I will trust a cop before I trust you. Get over it.

He's not saying you don't know cops that have trained and shoot a lot. He also is not say that all cops don't train and shoot a lot. He is simply saying he does know some cops that don't shoot often.

So thankfully you know LEOs that will be good to go with the hits the fan. Punisher is saying...him...not so much.

....and just a note. Most of the LEOs I knew didn't shoot that often either. As far a stress shoot, the did one in the 10 years that I remember.

[K191145]

There's many good replies here (all of them!). If you knew him as I do, you'd know this is the only time he's ever come out on the liberal side of an issue. That is what shocked me so much. This logic is to be expected from the card-carrying Libs.

BillofRightsFan said it best. My co-worker is thinking with emotion rather than logic. I need to tell him to just go ahead and become a full-fledged liberal. LOL

I guess the lesson to be learned for all is don't assume all "conservatives" support our rights. When we can't count on them, it sure makes winning policy/law changes that much more difficult.

EEEKER: (eek eek). A vocally obnoxious person who suffers an illogical, irrational, phobic or hysterical outburst to a situation, opinion or political issue.

[RinTN]

... The argument that cops have better control over their weapons than the average trained citizen is about the same as cops should be able to carry where we can't because they are privileged. I don't buy it or agree with it.

I don't agree with that either. But, that's not exactly what we need to be concerned with. Instead, it's a matter of what was said here...

I believe the public is OK with LEOs and their weapons because (1) they know they have received a fair amount of training in order to defend the public with their weapon

Now, realistically we should change "they know" to "they think", but in a sense what the public thinks is what matters. Those afraid of guns *think* that an officer knows more about guns, and is safer carrying one, than the average person. That public perception may be wrong, but it is what we have to contend with. It might be that we should be asking ourselves the question "how do we change public perception?"

[Guest SUNTZU]

They probably think police know a lot about guns because cops have OC'ed for so long.

[JayC]

I am yet to have me to the cop who hasn't put 1000 rounds through his side arm during his training.

I am also yet to have met the cop who wasn't required to qualify under a stress shoot.

Do you even KNOW what a stress shoot is? Have you ever qualified under a stress shoot?

When the **** hits the fan, I will trust a cop before I trust you. Get over it.

I don't think anybody is saying a number of departments around the state do go above and beyond in their training...

But I know for a fact that the majority of smaller departments here in this state do not do anything more than yearly 'target practice' for their uniformed patrol officers. They may only shoot 100-200 rounds a year from a firing line at targets...

I'll even point out that the shooting course that we do to qualify for the HCP was similar in the basic requirements for yearly qualifying for officers in a number of small departments around the state.