Dispute over flag

[TripleDigitRide]

Dispute over flag protest erupts in Wisc. village | Comcast.net

WAUSAU, Wis. — An American flag flown upside down as a protest in a northern Wisconsin village was seized by police before a Fourth of July parade and the businessman who flew it — an Iraq war veteran — claims the officers trespassed and stole his property. A day after the parade, police returned the flag and the man's protest — over a liquor license — continued.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin is considering legal action against the village of Crivitz for violating Vito Congine Jr.'s' First Amendment rights, Executive Director Chris Ahmuty said.

"It is not often that you see something this blatant," Ahmuty said.

In mid-June, Congine, 46, began flying the flag upside down — an accepted way to signal distress — outside the restaurant he wants to open in Crivitz, a village of about 1,000 people some 65 miles north of Green Bay.

He said his distress is likely bankruptcy because the village board refused to grant him a liquor license after he spent nearly $200,000 to buy and remodel a downtown building for an Italian supper club.

Congine's upside-down-flag represents distress to him; to others in town, it represents disrespect of the flag.

Hours before a Fourth of July parade, four police officers went to Congine's property and removed the flag under the advice of Marinette County District Attorney Allen Brey.

Neighbor Steven Klein watched in disbelief.

"I said, 'What are you doing?' Klein said. "They said, 'It is none of your business.'"

The next day, police returned the flag.

Brey declined comment Friday.

Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July.

"It is illegal to cause a disruption," he said.

The parade went on without any problems, Kanikula said.

Village President John Deschane, 60, an Army veteran who served in Vietnam, said many people in town believe it's disrespectful to fly the flag upside down.

"If he wants to protest, let him protest but find a different way to do it," Deschane said.

Congine, a Marine veteran who served in Iraq in 2004, said he intends to keep flying the flag upside down.

"It is pretty bad when I go and fight a tyrannical government somewhere else," Congine said, "and then I come home to find it right here at my front door."

[Guest redbarron06]

Though I do belive this country is in distress because of todays political climate and it would not bother me a bit to fly a flag upside down myself though I have not, YET. There are allot more things wrong with this country other than a liqour permit.

As far as the other residents being upset over it fuzz them, it was his flag and if he believes that this country is in distress he has the constitutional right to fly it upside down. Those that think it is disrespectful are either BHO nutcases or do not know what the meaning of the upside down flag is.

I would like to have seen the charges that would come up if the police stepped into my yard, without a warrent, and tried to steal a piece of my property. I would start with tresspassing, and them move up to illegal siezure (aint that in the constitution somewhere?).

I think the very actions of the police under the advice of the County DA shows just how much of a state of distress this country is in. Correct me if I am wrong but in TN the DA can not issue a warrent, it has to be signed by a judge. As far as it being a disturbance, if people dont like it, dont look at it. He was not in the middle of the street making a scene. It was a silent protest that people could ingnore if they wanted to. What he did was completly legal and within his constitutional rights. Rights that he has stepped up and committed his life to defend. Do I think that his explination was to the degree that warrentee this action? No. Do I think the current state of this country warrents it? Yes.

The DA makes a judgement and gives an order to police officers to violate 2 constitutional rights. Then the officers carried out orders that they knew to be illegal. They should all be fired to start with and then the law suits can come later.

This is just one more example of without the 2nd Ammendment the rest don't mean squat.

[Guest 3pugguy]

Dispute over flag protest erupts in Wisc. village | Comcast.net

WAUSAU, Wis. — An American flag flown upside down as a protest in a northern Wisconsin village was seized by police before a Fourth of July parade and the businessman who flew it — an Iraq war veteran — claims the officers trespassed and stole his property. A day after the parade, police returned the flag and the man's protest — over a liquor license — continued.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin is considering legal action against the village of Crivitz for violating Vito Congine Jr.'s' First Amendment rights, Executive Director Chris Ahmuty said.

"It is not often that you see something this blatant," Ahmuty said.

In mid-June, Congine, 46, began flying the flag upside down — an accepted way to signal distress — outside the restaurant he wants to open in Crivitz, a village of about 1,000 people some 65 miles north of Green Bay.

He said his distress is likely bankruptcy because the village board refused to grant him a liquor license after he spent nearly $200,000 to buy and remodel a downtown building for an Italian supper club.

Congine's upside-down-flag represents distress to him; to others in town, it represents disrespect of the flag.

Hours before a Fourth of July parade, four police officers went to Congine's property and removed the flag under the advice of Marinette County District Attorney Allen Brey.

Neighbor Steven Klein watched in disbelief.

"I said, 'What are you doing?' Klein said. "They said, 'It is none of your business.'"

The next day, police returned the flag.

Brey declined comment Friday.

Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July.

"It is illegal to cause a disruption," he said.

The parade went on without any problems, Kanikula said.

Village President John Deschane, 60, an Army veteran who served in Vietnam, said many people in town believe it's disrespectful to fly the flag upside down.

"If he wants to protest, let him protest but find a different way to do it," Deschane said.

Congine, a Marine veteran who served in Iraq in 2004, said he intends to keep flying the flag upside down.

"It is pretty bad when I go and fight a tyrannical government somewhere else," Congine said, "and then I come home to find it right here at my front door."

I think they overstepped their authority and violated his rights. As awful and distasteful as I find disrespect or damage to the American flag, I keep in mind whatthe flag represents is more than the piece of cloth on which our stars and bars are displayed and those ideals are MUCH greater than the symbol itself.

I don't want to live in a country that passes banana republic laws where our right to expression, including flag burning - as crappy, ridiculous and meaningless as it is (and yes, it bothers me deep in my core) - are outlawed.

But I stand by the US Constitution more so and hope we keep in mind our rights and how precious they are; the flag garners a great deal of emotion (speaking for me), so my stance is not one I offer lightly or without a great deal of consideration.

But, I don't have any sympathy for the guy, either; big old boo hoo hoo, might lose his 200K; dummy should have determined the license issue BEFORE spending the money. But I stand by his rights (while holding my nose at the stench of his foolishness). I don't pick which rights I support, same as I get upset by those who want to selectively afford me my Second Amendment rights. It's the old bitter with the sweet, in my opinion.

Edited July 11, 2009 by 3pugguy
typing

[Guest 3pugguy]

Though I do belive this country is in distress because of todays political climate and it would not bother me a bit to fly a flag upside down myself though I have not, YET. There are allot more things wrong with this country other than a liqour permit.

As far as the other residents being upset over it fuzz them, it was his flag and if he believes that this country is in distress he has the constitutional right to fly it upside down. Those that think it is disrespectful are either BHO nutcases or do not know what the meaning of the upside down flag is.

I would like to have seen the charges that would come up if the police stepped into my yard, without a warrent, and tried to steal a piece of my property. I would start with tresspassing, and them move up to illegal siezure (aint that in the constitution somewhere?).

I think the very actions of the police under the advice of the County DA shows just how much of a state of distress this country is in. Correct me if I am wrong but in TN the DA can not issue a warrent, it has to be signed by a judge. As far as it being a disturbance, if people dont like it, dont look at it. He was not in the middle of the street making a scene. It was a silent protest that people could ingnore if they wanted to. What he did was completly legal and within his constitutional rights. Rights that he has stepped up and committed his life to defend. Do I think that his explination was to the degree that warrentee this action? No. Do I think the current state of this country warrents it? Yes.

The DA makes a judgement and gives an order to police officers to violate 2 constitutional rights. Then the officers carried out orders that they knew to be illegal. They should all be fired to start with and then the law suits can come later.

This is just one more example of without the 2nd Ammendment the rest don't mean squat.

Concur.

[Guest redbarron06]

I don't want to live in a country that passes banana republic laws where our right to expression, including flag burning - as crappy, ridiculous and meaningless as it is (and yes, it bothers me deep in my core) - are outlawed.

Tennessee has laws against dessicrating the flag but that is not what he was doing. It is legal to fly the flag upside down in a time of distress. He was breaking no laws nor was he showing disrespect to the flag.

[Smith]

Dispute over flag protest erupts in Wisc. village | Comcast.net

Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July.

"It is illegal to cause a disruption," he said.

No there's a great legal mind at work. Under his interpretation anything that causes someone to complain is breaking the law.

[Guest bkelm18]

Tennessee has laws against dessicrating the flag but that is not what he was doing. It is legal to fly the flag upside down in a time of distress. He was breaking no laws nor was he showing disrespect to the flag.

Yes, he was. It's got nothing to do with state law. It's the US Flag Code, which falls under the US Code.

§176. Respect for flag

No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

• (a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
  

I don't care how you spin it, his life was not in extreme danger nor was his property. Being denied a liquor license is neither of those. He was being disrespectful to the flag and got what he deserved IMO. Perhaps the police went a tad too far, but that still doesn't make it ok for him to disrespect the flag. The flag is a symbol of this nation, disrespect the flag, disresepct the nation. It is my belief that the flag is greater than any one person, so to display it improperly just because he was denied a liquor license not only offends me, I'm sure it offends many, many more who actually understand and abide by the flag code, and making poor business decisions in not a reason to do it. Edited July 11, 2009 by bkelm18

[Mike.357]

I do not think the businessman can make a case for distress in this instance.

My understanding of distress and flying a flag upside down would be similar to pulling a weapon. In the case of pulling the pistol you are in imminent danger, in case of the flag, imminent distress. Obviously his distress is not imminent as this has been going on for weeks.

Flying the flag under distress was meant as a way to draw attention over matters happening right now, life and death, not money.

[Smith]

Yes, he was. It's got nothing to do with state law. It's the US Flag Code, which falls under the US Code.

I don't care how you spin it, his life was not in extreme danger nor was his property. Being denied a liquor license was neither. He was being disrespectful to the flag and got what he deserved IMO.

I think he would argue that he was loosing everything he had (property) due to the issue at hand. It is a little in your face and antagonistic, but I can sorta see his point. The cops should have understood the time we live in and known that they are not going to win in a case like this. These days anything yo do is ok if you are using it to protest.

[saintsfanbrian]

dummy should have determined the license issue BEFORE spending the money. But

You usually have to have the place ready to occupy before a liquor license will be granted.

How many times have you seen the yellow sign on the building mentioning that an application for a permit has been submitted and that there will be a hearing on the application on such an such a date.

He was in imminent danger of losing his property by having to file bankruptcy.

Our country is in a time of distress. Bailouts to big auto, big banks etc.

He has a right to fly his flag this way and I am happy that the normally liberal ACLU is stepping in here to help him out.

[cybernorris]

No there's a great legal mind at work. Under his interpretation anything that causes someone to complain is breaking the law.

The WI Atty Gen had to issue an opinion that open carry by itself is not grounds for a disorderly conduct charge.

That state is full of people who complain to the police about the smallest things... and police tend to write up disorderly conducts on a whim.

I'm so glad to be back home in TN!

[Guest redbarron06]

Yes, he was. It's got nothing to do with state law. It's the US Flag Code, which falls under the US Code.

I don't care how you spin it, his life was not in extreme danger nor was his property. Being denied a liquor license is neither of those. He was being disrespectful to the flag and got what he deserved IMO. Perhaps the police went a tad too far, but that still doesn't make it ok for him to disrespect the flag. The flag is a symbol of this nation, disrespect the flag, disresepct the nation. It is my belief that the flag is greater than any one person, so to display it improperly just because he was denied a liquor license not only offends me, I'm sure it offends many, many more who actually understand and abide by the flag code, and making poor business decisions in not a reason to do it.

Federal an state laws that protect have been found on many occasions to be unconstitutional by SCOTUS. I am not saying that his reasons for doing it were justified however it in no way justifies seizure of personall property without a warrent or trying to silence his 1A rights. The DA, and officers involved should be fired at the very least.

(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

Is he not in danger of loosing property facing bankruptcy? It is the indiviudals opinion of what extreme danger is not the opinion of the collective.

[Fallguy]

Acting disrespectful (if that was what he was doing) is not against the law.....or at least it shouldn't be.

Also I think it is a gigantic stretch to say it was causing a disturbance.

[Guest 3pugguy]

I did not mean to imply I thought the guy was desecrating the flag, only that the cops had no right to stop him. And even if he were desecrating the flag (burning, etc), they STILL would have no legal right if he were not endangering others or doing something that removes the First Amendment protection (you know, like yelling FIRE in a crowded theater isn't protected).

And state laws (including any that may still be on the books in our State of TN, but believe they are not on the books any longer) against desecration are invalid - the US Supreme Court has ruled it a valid form of free speech and as such, is protected by the First Amendment.

Once again, it makes me sick when people desecrate the flag, but I cannot pick which parts of the Constitution I support.

[Guest justme]

Yes, he was. It's got nothing to do with state law. It's the US Flag Code, which falls under the US Code.

and it isn't a crime to fly the flag upside down, even under fed law.

I don't care how you spin it, his life was not in extreme danger nor was his property. Being denied a liquor license is neither of those.

Flying the flag union side down is a legitimate way to express how dire a situation this nation is in.

He was being disrespectful to the flag and got what he deserved IMO.

IMO he was well within his rights under the Constitution to fly the flag upside down if he did so in order to protest the way this nation has gone.

Perhaps the police went a tad too far, but that still doesn't make it ok for him to disrespect the flag.

Perhaps they went too far? How about they absolutely went too far and vastly and grossly overstepped what authority they had. The officers involved in that debacle should lose their jobs for violating his rights.

The flag is a symbol of this nation, disrespect the flag, disresepct the nation.

The flag is a piece of cloth, and without the foundational principles of this country behind it---Bill of rights and the Constitution that flag means absolutely nothing. Our rights are being violated on a daily basis, and therefore until the "government"--local, state or federal and its agents and employees begin fully respecting the Constitution and the rights it guarantees to each of us--not just the ones that are convenient, or convenient at the time, but all of them--then that flag does not mean anything.

It is my belief that the flag is greater than any one person, so to display it improperly just because he was denied a liquor license not only offends me, I'm sure it offends many, many more who actually understand and abide by the flag code, and making poor business decisions in not a reason to do it.

And you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. IMO the nation itself is not greater than the individuals who make it up, and the flag is only a representation of the rights guaranteed to each individual citizen of this nation under the Constitution--disrespect the Constitution, disrespect our rights, abrogate them how you see fit--and government and it's agents are doing it every day of the week--just look at the "park bans" that are popping up. The government no more respects the people than a tree does. Anytime an unlawful search is carried out, any time a citizen is deprived of his/her property without due process of law, anytime a person is harassed by a government based merely on the way he/she chooses to exercise their Constitutionally protected rights simply because the way they choose to exercise their rights makes "some uncomfortable". The Constitution grants us neither the right nor the privilege of being uncomfortable.

You might not agree with it--but it is a lawful exercise of his Constitutionally protected rights and those rights were violated--the Constitution gives the flag it's meaning, it is a representation of our rights and without it--that flag is meaningless, and every time the rights of any person is violated by the government--the disrespect for the rights of the people by far disrespects the flag much more than flying the flag upside down ever could.

And it does not offend me that he is flying the flag upside down--I only wish I had a flagpole--because I would fly it upside down too. I wish the entire country would, but that won't happen because people are afraid of being different or pointed at.

[ncomarc]

Yes, he was. It's got nothing to do with state law. It's the US Flag Code, which falls under the US Code.

I don't care how you spin it, his life was not in extreme danger nor was his property. Being denied a liquor license is neither of those. He was being disrespectful to the flag and got what he deserved IMO. Perhaps the police went a tad too far, but that still doesn't make it ok for him to disrespect the flag. The flag is a symbol of this nation, disrespect the flag, disresepct the nation. It is my belief that the flag is greater than any one person, so to display it improperly just because he was denied a liquor license not only offends me, I'm sure it offends many, many more who actually understand and abide by the flag code, and making poor business decisions in not a reason to do it.

+1 - Bringing the flag into his bussiness/financial situation does not help him in any way, except to get attention and upset the families tyrying to enjoy the holiday.......

[DaveTN]

It should have been done legally. I would have arrested him for disorderly conduct, seized the flag as evidence, booked him into jail, and let him get an attorney to argue the case in court.

I can’t think of a better case for disorderly conduct. The mistake they made was removing the flag without an arrest.