Bodily Harm Question

[Guest Muttling]

Greetings all,

My training (by a former State Police trainer, not an attorney) was that lethal force requires a reasonable fear of death or bodily harm. His discussion of what constitutes a reasonable fear of bodily harm was quite detailed and very good.

It's been a couple of years, and I don't recall him addressing threat of rape. Is a woman who has good reason to be in fear of being raped considered to be in fear of bodily harm under Tennessee law?

As woman who was sharp on her feet could use the HIV fear as part of her justificaion, but I'd prefer to leave that out of the discussion as this could be a wacked out boyfriend or something of that nature.

Does a reasonable fear of being raped translate into a reasonable fear of bodily harm?

[56FordGuy]

I would think the answer would be a definite yes.

[Guest Muttling]

I would think the answer would be a definite yes.

That's what I would "think" as well. I also can't see a defense attorney worth his salt not trying to argue it even if it happens to be an uphill battle. (You'd be hard pressed to get a jury to rule guilty on a woman who had good reason to believe it was shoot or get raped.)

That said, I am curious as to whether or not there's any rulings or laws on the books to support it.

To give you an example of why I ask, it was my training (and this may not be right) that a broken nose isn't bodily harm because it's not bone. Thus, a threat of "I'm gonna break your nose" is very different from "I'm gonna break your face". The first threatens harm, the second could be taken to threaten bodily harm as that says to me a broken jaw.

[Guest 3pugguy]

Greetings all,

My training (by a former State Police trainer, not an attorney) was that lethal force requires a reasonable fear of death or bodily harm. His discussion of what constitutes a reasonable fear of bodily harm was quite detailed and very good.

It's been a couple of years, and I don't recall him addressing threat of rape. Is a woman who has good reason to be in fear of being raped considered to be in fear of bodily harm under Tennessee law?

As woman who was sharp on her feet could use the HIV fear as part of her justificaion, but I'd prefer to leave that out of the discussion as this could be a wacked out boyfriend or something of that nature.

Does a reasonable fear of being raped translate into a reasonable fear of bodily harm?

Well, do you think if YOU were gonna be raped you would think it was a threat of serious "bodily harm"? It isn't a slap in the face when this happens to a woman.

Seriously think about it for a minute - FORCEFUL INTERCOURSE. If that isn't bodily harm, I don't know what could constitute it, as that is an absolute violation of a person.

And an angry, shunned and already abusvie ex husband or ex boyfriend could be the prime candidates to do violence toward a woman and why a woman who has left a toxic relationship SHOULD BE armed and able to protect herself from bodily harm - which dang sure includes the horrible crime of rape in my humble opinion.

[56FordGuy]

To give you an example of why I ask, it was my training (and this may not be right) that a broken nose isn't bodily harm because it's not bone. Thus, a threat of "I'm gonna break your nose" is very different from "I'm gonna break your face". The first threatens harm, the second could be taken to threaten bodily harm as that says to me a broken jaw.

I'm not as well versed on the letter of the law as some here, but it would seem to me that the threat of anything being inserted into the body would constitute serious bodily harm, be it a knife, a pencil, or parts of someone else's body.

[Guest Muttling]

3pugguy - You're not gonna get any argument from me on that!!!! To misquote from Pirates of the Carribean...."Cut of his ___, shoot him, and then shoot his _____."

56FordGuy - Yes, it is a letter of the law question and you make one heck of a good argument. I hope you don't mind me using that quote in the future.

[Guest redbarron06]

Sounds logical to me that it would. I would also add that she could be in fear of her life as he may decide to "get rid of the witness".

[Guest PapaB]

Does a reasonable fear of being raped translate into a reasonable fear of bodily harm?

I can't imagine a greater fear of bodily harm for a woman than the reasonable fear of rape.

[Oh Shoot]

Rape is a crime of violence.

Many women who are raped are also murdered.

What more reasonable fear of death or severe bodily harm does one need?

- OS

[JayC]

Any forcible felony is going to fall into the reasonable bodily harm/death category....

That is going to include (but not limited to) things such as:

Kidnapping, Murder, Manslaughter, Sexual Battery (Rape), Home Invasion, etc

You're not going to find a jury in TN who will convict a women of murder/manslaughter when she kills somebody who was in the process of raping or kidnapping her... You'd probably have to look long and hard to find a DA dumb enough to even charge the crime.

Here is a perfect example:

A Brighton man shot and killed a 44-year-old registered sex offender who attacked two women in their home early this morning, officials said.

According to Dist. Atty. Gen. Mike Dunavant, David Fleming charged into the home of two women at about 3 a.m.

Fleming bound the women but one escaped and ran to a nearby home. Dunavant said Fleming, who lived in Munford, intended to rape the women.

The woman who escaped went to the nearby home of Keith Ingram for help, Dunavant said.

Ingram, carrying a .40-caliber handgun, ran to the house and found Fleming attacking the other woman, officials said.

When Fleming tried to attack Ingram, Dunavant said Ingram shot Fleming once.

Tipton County Sheriff’s deputies and Brighton Police officers found Fleming dead on the front porch of the home.

Fleming had been convicted of attempted rape in Tipton County. He’s listed on the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation’s sex-offender registry.

Dunavant said Ingram has no criminal record and has a permit to carry the handgun.

The women who were attacked were treated at Baptist Memorial Hospital-Tipton.

TBI officials are assisting with the case. The Shelby County Medical Examiner will conduct an autopsy. Investigators took statements from several witnesses today. The shooting is still under investigation.

As you can see from the above news report, bad guy didn't have a weapon, and no charges were filed against the man.

Also keep in mind that a threat of bodily harm does NOT have to be said verbally by the attacker... For example me holding a handgun and telling you to "give me all your money" is a threat of bodily harm and/or death, even though I never say "or I'm going to shoot you"... The same would be true if you were holding a knife, or baseball bat, etc... The bad guy doesn't have to tell you speak the threat for it to be real...

Greetings all,

My training (by a former State Police trainer, not an attorney) was that lethal force requires a reasonable fear of death or bodily harm. His discussion of what constitutes a reasonable fear of bodily harm was quite detailed and very good.

It's been a couple of years, and I don't recall him addressing threat of rape. Is a woman who has good reason to be in fear of being raped considered to be in fear of bodily harm under Tennessee law?

As woman who was sharp on her feet could use the HIV fear as part of her justificaion, but I'd prefer to leave that out of the discussion as this could be a wacked out boyfriend or something of that nature.

Does a reasonable fear of being raped translate into a reasonable fear of bodily harm?

[Guest Muttling]

Any forcible felony is going to fall into the reasonable bodily harm/death category....

That is going to include (but not limited to) things such as:

Kidnapping, Murder, Manslaughter, Sexual Battery (Rape), Home Invasion, etc

ummm.....Treason is considered a "forcible felony" and there is no immediate fear of bodily harm/death from treason.

You're not going to find a jury in TN who will convict a women of murder/manslaughter when she kills somebody who was in the process of raping or kidnapping her... You'd probably have to look long and hard to find a DA dumb enough to even charge the crime.

While I agree on the jury part, there have been some pretty ignorant DA attempts at prosecution in our state.

Here is a perfect example:

As you can see from the above news report, bad guy didn't have a weapon, and no charges were filed against the man.....

The news report you cited says the shooting was still under investigation. I doesn't say what the DA's final decision was concerning an attempt to press charges.

Also keep in mind that a threat of bodily harm does NOT have to be said verbally by the attacker......

Understood and certainly agreed.

[JayC]

I canb't find the article where they stated charges weren't filed, but I remember the case and he wasn't charged.....

As for treason, you're right technically there isn't a threat of bodily harm, under our law it's the except, and I'm not sure treason would be considered a forcible felony under TN state law, although I could be mistaken.

[Fallguy]

FWIW

39-11-106(a)(34)

“Serious bodily injury†means bodily injury that involves:

(A)

A substantial risk of death;

(

Protracted unconsciousness;

©

Extreme physical pain;

(D)

Protracted or obvious disfigurement; or

(E)

Protracted loss or substantial impairment of a function of a bodily member, organ or mental faculty

Will rape is not specifically mentioned....I thnk it would fall under one or more of the above.

[G27]

This question is one that bothers me the most - we've been told specifically that a punch in the nose (even resulting in a broken nose) was not 'serious bodily injury'. That being said, I've seen many people dropped with one punch (unconscious), which renders one completely defenseless, even for a short time...

Obviously, I avoid situations like this whenever possible (I've not been into a physical altercation since I was in high school), but sometimes altercations can't be avoided.

[Fallguy]

Here is a court case where the trial court said Aggravated sexual battery (39-13-504) did not constitute "serisous bodily harm".

However!, the appelate court said...

Finally, the Appellant argues that the trial court erred by not giving more weight to mitigating factor (1). The trial court, applying mitigating factor (1), found that the Appellant’s conduct did not cause or threaten serious bodily harm. We disagree and are compelled to note that every sexual offense is physically and mentally injurious to the victim. Kissinger, 922 S.W.2d at 487. It is difficult to conceive of any factual situation where the sexual abuse of a child would not threaten serious bodily injury. Notwithstanding this fact, serious bodily injury as defined by the statute includes an injury that involves "extreme physical pain; . . . or substantial impairment of a . . . mental facility.†Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-11-106(a)(34) (1997). Clearly, the fact that the victim was sexually abused at age eleven necessarily includes a threat of mental impairment. The record reflects that the victim underwent extended counseling. Accordingly, we find mitigating factor (1) is inapplicable in this case.

This case involves a child and the last part of the quoted paragraph talks about age, but the highlighted part would seem to be saying that any sexual offense, regardless of age of the victim, would constitute serious bodily harm.

[Guest Muttling]

Obviously, I avoid situations like this whenever possible (I've not been into a physical altercation since I was in high school), but sometimes altercations can't be avoided.

That's why I carry pepper as well. It gives me a less than lethal alternative for the altercation.

THANKS Fallguy!!!!!!!

[Guest m&pc9]

If I were on a jury and this came up theres noway I would find someone guilty of killing a rapist, If they were being attacked. And I would think 95% of Tn adults would think the same way. But if you are in California or some of the northern states it maybe different.

thats my

[GLOCKMEISTER]

yes rape is in the bodily harm/death category

[Guest 3pugguy]

3pugguy - You're not gonna get any argument from me on that!!!! To misquote from Pirates of the Carribean...."Cut of his ___, shoot him, and then shoot his _____."

56FordGuy - Yes, it is a letter of the law question and you make one heck of a good argument. I hope you don't mind me using that quote in the future.

I had a girlfriend years ago (Navy girl, also from TN - guess that why we connected in part). She would wake up screaming and I thought, dang, is it me? She finally explained why - she had been raped.

Won't give the details, but what I have never forgotten was how she expained not only was the forceful act of the sex degrading, but this particular guy has stalked her (and others - he had been caught and convicted and one can only hope, getting his backside widened by his new buddies). She said the idea this guy knew her routine so well was almost as bad as the physcial act, that is, the invasion of her life as well as her body. And what woke her up screaming was dreams of stepping out of the shower again and seeing the ahole there with this knife...

Sorry if I came across too strong on my first reply, but I always remember her and her ordeal (and wonder, sometimes, where she is now).