.38 Special loads

[56FordGuy]

Alright, I'm out of ideas.

I've been loading for my S&W 642, and I'm continually having the same problem. The bullets are tumbling, the groups are huge, and nothing I do seems to change it.

I'm loading 158 grain cast round nose bullets. I did not cast them myself. I've loaded them with anywhere from 3.3 grains (minimum in my Hornady book) to 4.0 grains of Unique. I did intentionally vary the load, i.e. 10 of 3.3 grain, 10 of 3.5 grain, etc...I have also varied the OAL from 1.45 (again, maximum in my Hornady book) down to 1.30. I've been individually measuring each and every case, I don't recall the exact measurement right now but I do insure that all the cases in each 10 round batch are exactly the same. I am measuring each and every finished round, and weighing each and every charge.

Nothing seems to change the accuracy and tumbling. Naturally, the lower powder charges have less recoil, but otherwise it's all the same. From about 7 yards, out of 10 rounds, I might get 6 on an 8x11 sheet of paper, and the ones that hit appear to be hitting sideways.

I thought it was just me. Maybe I really can't see squat, and I really can't shoot. So I shot through a box of MagTech CowBoy loads. They're 158 grain flat nosed bullets, and I could put 5 into a sub 2" group. So it isn't just me.

I'm almost out of ideas. The only things I can still think of is to change powder, or change bullets. Before I do that, I wanted to ask here. I know I'm not the only person loading for a J frame, so what are the rest of y'all loading? Powder, bullets, OAL? I can't imagine that Unique just won't work well with 158 grain cast round nose bullets, but I'm almost to the point that I think it's the only option left. Any opinions would be appreciated.

[gregintenn]

What diameter are the bullets?

[leroy]

What diameter are the bullets?

Plus one on this. My bet is that they are 9mm bullets (.356 dia). Make sure they are at least .358.

Good luck,

LEROY

[Guest Crunchman]

What they said! A friend had cast some bullets for 9mm and had dropped them into his .38/.357 bucket. He had the same problem as you until he thought to measure and realized his mistake.

[Okey]

I have some 105 LSWC if you would like to try them. They are a hoot to shoot out of the 642.

Okey

[56FordGuy]

I measured a handful of the bullets, they all measure .358 or .359.

Okey, I'd love to try some different bullets. Not sure when I'll be out your way, though. I'll PM you.

[Guest Mugster]

Can you take a picture of a loaded round and mic the OD of the loaded round at the crimp?

You could be resizing them during the crimping process. With a lead bullet, you got to ease up on the crimp.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Mugster

[Trekbike]

For 38 special target loads I usually run Speer 148g HBWC's using WW231. I normally run the charge around 3.7g. OAL is 1.175".

That load in my 642 runs pretty well.

I saw you're in Summer Co. I work in Hendersonville so if you want I can spot you a few rounds to try. PM me if you are interested.

[56FordGuy]

Can you take a picture of a loaded round and mic the OD of the loaded round at the crimp?

You could be resizing them during the crimping process. With a lead bullet, you got to ease up on the crimp.

I'll try to load one or two more and get more measurements and photos in the next day or two. I'm not putting much crimp on them at all, just enough that I can't push the bullet into the case.

For 38 special target loads I usually run Speer 148g HBWC's using WW231. I normally run the charge around 3.7g. OAL is 1.175".

That load in my 642 runs pretty well.

I saw you're in Summer Co. I work in Hendersonville so if you want I can spot you a few rounds to try. PM me if you are interested.

My next move is going to be different bullets. I'm planning to get a few from Okey this week to try. Depending on the difference that makes, I may take you up on the offer.

[Rightwinger]

The weirder thing is I loaded these bullets before selling them (sold my .38) and I did not experience the same problem or at least if we did, not to the same degree as 56 is. Now the wife couldn't hit squat with the .38 so maybe this had a large amount of that to it. I could hit paper with it pretty well with these bullets though. Will be watching this one closely as I'm an "interested party" to this one.

56, consider the 7.62x54s I have for you up here gratis for all the crap those cast bullets are giving you.

[Guest m&pc9]

The weirder thing is I loaded these bullets before selling them (sold my .38) and I did not experience the same problem or at least if we did, not to the same degree as 56 is. Now the wife couldn't hit squat with the .38 so maybe this had a large amount of that to it. I could hit paper with it pretty well with these bullets though. Will be watching this one closely as I'm an "interested party" to this one.

56, consider the 7.62x54s I have for you up here gratis for all the crap those cast bullets are giving you.

Sorry to hear that, But your not getting it back.:D

[Rightwinger]

You don't like that purty little pistol now do ya?

[Guest m&pc9]

I have been carrying it since I found ammo for it.(Its not easy to find ammo) I didnt know they were so easy to carry. Shes a little firestorm to shoot but I like it.

[56FordGuy]

The weirder thing is I loaded these bullets before selling them (sold my .38) and I did not experience the same problem or at least if we did, not to the same degree as 56 is. Now the wife couldn't hit squat with the .38 so maybe this had a large amount of that to it. I could hit paper with it pretty well with these bullets though. Will be watching this one closely as I'm an "interested party" to this one.

56, consider the 7.62x54s I have for you up here gratis for all the crap those cast bullets are giving you.

I'll be keeping the thread updated until we figure this out. I'm hoping to get the bullets from Okey tomorrow.

I appreciate the offer on the x54s, but I can't let you do that. I bought some bullets, and am having an accuracy issue that may or may not be related. Not your fault, but if it really keeps you up at night, I think a few rounds through the Socom would be an acceptable tradeoff.

[Rightwinger]

You know your going to get that anyway. And yeah, it bothers me. I want you to trust your loadings and right now you can't.

[Guest tlondon]

I'll be keeping the thread updated until we figure this out. I'm hoping to get the bullets from Okey tomorrow.

I appreciate the offer on the x54s, but I can't let you do that. I bought some bullets, and am having an accuracy issue that may or may not be related. Not your fault, but if it really keeps you up at night, I think a few rounds through the Socom would be an acceptable tradeoff.

Okey makes some pretty good boolits. He gave me a few 38 spl that he poured and I have nothing but good luck with them so far. Thanks again Okey.

[Okey]

Okey makes some pretty good boolits. He gave me a few 38 spl that he poured and I have nothing but good luck with them so far. Thanks again Okey.

Thanks

While we are talking lead boolits, if you see any lead wheel weights laying around grab them.

Okey

[gregintenn]

Another possibility......If you are shooting a paper target with a slow, round nosed bullet, the bullet often tears the paper and could leave the impression of an unstable bullet. They don't cut pretty little round holes like wadcutters. Perhaps you could shoot something more substantial such as a piece of wood or heavy cardboard and see if the holes look different.

[gregintenn]

Another probably obvious question.... Are the bullets round? Could the be an oblong shape caused by something gone wrong in the casting process?

A 642 should stabilize a 158 grain bullet.

[56FordGuy]

Another possibility......If you are shooting a paper target with a slow, round nosed bullet, the bullet often tears the paper and could leave the impression of an unstable bullet. They don't cut pretty little round holes like wadcutters. Perhaps you could shoot something more substantial such as a piece of wood or heavy cardboard and see if the holes look different.

You know, that did occur to me. As of yet I've not shot anything more substantial. However, I am having a significant issue with the size of the group, regardless of the charge size. I did get the bullets from Okey today, but didn't get any loaded yet. I might be able to load a few tomorrow.

[gregintenn]

Sir, I hope I'm not coming off as a know it all, I just thought of some possibilities and didn't know whether or not you've considered them. I'd like to see you identify the source of the problem so we can all learn from it. Keep us posted and good luck!

[56FordGuy]

Another probably obvious question.... Are the bullets round? Could the be an oblong shape caused by something gone wrong in the casting process?

A 642 should stabilize a 158 grain bullet.

They are round, I checked that also.

Sir, I hope I'm not coming off as a know it all, I just thought of some possibilities and didn't know whether or not you've considered them. I'd like to see you identify the source of the problem so we can all learn from it. Keep us posted and good luck!

First off, no need to call me 'sir'. That's all...formal, and the like. I appreciate all the questions and suggestions that y'all have offered, because I'm still very new to reloading. I've only been loading for a month or two now, still have a lot to learn.

It's all good, man. I'm learning a lot from y'all, feel free to keep it up.

[56FordGuy]

Alright, updating.

I loaded up 10 rounds tonight with some of the bullets I got from Okey. They're cast round nose, 158 grains, the same type as the ones I've been having issues with. I loaded them over 3.5 grains of Unique, with a 1.45 OAL.

Initial results are positive. They don't appear to be tumbling, and relatively accurate. I loaded another 10 rounds of those, and 10 rounds of the exact same charge/ OAL with the original bullets. I'm planning to actually get a good rest out and do a definitive side by side comparison before long, but initial results are good.

[56FordGuy]

Alright, here's yet another update. I loaded up a few more rounds and did a side by side comparison off a bench. While the bullets from Okey are a noticeable improvement over the others, I still haven't found a load that will match the MagTech cowboy loads for accuracy. I'm getting close, I just need to tinker with it a bit more.

First, I want to touch on a difference in the bullets themselves. My original bullets were factory cast 158 grain round nose bullets, and I have not been able to obtain good results from them. My best results have come from the bullets Okey cast himself. They're 158 grain, and the exact same diameter as the originals. However, they are just a bit longer. The factory cast bullets measure 1.693 long, and the bullets from Okey measure 1.711 long. Both were loaded to the same OAL. The factory bullets have a blue band around them that I believe is a gas check, while the bullets from Okey do not.

The groups from the hand cast bullets are slightly smaller with Okey's bullets. I loaded up the last of the 158 grain bullets over 3.9 grains of Unique. The accuracy results are good. I can put 5 into a 5" circle at 10 yards. It's not as close of a group as I'd like, but that may be my fault. My measuring stick for this gun is MagTech 158 grain Cowboy loads. I can put 5 of those into a 2" circle at 10 yards. I hope to beat that with handloads, but I'm still working on it. That's part of the fun. I've got some 105 grain bullets (also from Okey) that I'm working with over some light loads, they seem to be promising.

Anyway, I just wanted to add an bit more information to this thread on my tumbling/ inaccurate issue. Physically longer bullets, set to the same OAL seem to have solved the tumbling problem. Still working on the accuracy bit, though it's improved noticeably.

[Rightwinger]

I wish I could take closeups like that when working in tight on something. My eyes won't even focus that good, much less either camera we have.

Nice work there!

Might want to try the old bullets you got from me at max OAL and slight crimp near the band and see if you can improve the performance of those puppies.

We still need to get some FMJ or JHP and see if it likes them any differently as well.