Why not a point restriction in TN?

[Wingshooter]

Try this...impose the restriction on yourself this season. Make a vow....stick with it! Lets say...minimum of 4 points on one side. All of ya'll that are in favor and voted yes...hunt your deer this year with that restriction. Then, at the end of the season, lets all get back together again on this. So, make your vows here!

Dave

I have hunted deer like this most of my life. Shoot does if I want meat and meat alone... shoot only what I feel is a mature deer if I am hunting meat & antlers. The problem is, it gets very frustrating when you pass on a juvenile deer with good genes only to know that the guy in the next stand will shoot him. It only works if every hunter is on the same page and it is enforced.

Good thought though, and you are right. If every hunter would adhere to this, we would have P&Y's walking around before too long.

[Guest Jcochran88]

I don't believe point restriction alone is the answer we want, will it help yes to a point.

The reason I say this is because most hunters now days want to harvest that booner. If we just do a point restriction then the potential monster buck will be taken prior to reaching maturity. I have seen on our farm 10 pointers that wouldn't score 110 ".

I sorta find it funny that we don't want the govt. to tell us what to do and where we can carry but we want them to limit our rights to kill any deer we want!

I am all for taking large bucks. I currently hunt on my family farm and we have stopped taking bucks under 3 1/2 years old. We also have an intensive managment system, that includes feeders, food plots and mineral suplement. We have been doing this for about 8 years now. We are starting to see the results with 4 130" class deer taken in the past 2 years off of our farm alone. I have seen pictures of at least 6 more taken off of neighboring properties.

[Wingshooter]

I don't believe point restriction alone is the answer we want, will it help yes to a point.

The reason I say this is because most hunters now days want to harvest that booner. If we just do a point restriction then the potential monster buck will be taken prior to reaching maturity. I have seen on our farm 10 pointers that wouldn't score 110 ".

I sorta find it funny that we don't want the govt. to tell us what to do and where we can carry but we want them to limit our rights to kill any deer we want!

I am all for taking large bucks. I currently hunt on my family farm and we have stopped taking bucks under 3 1/2 years old. We also have an intensive managment system, that includes feeders, food plots and mineral suplement. We have been doing this for about 8 years now. We are starting to see the results with 4 130" class deer taken in the past 2 years off of our farm alone. I have seen pictures of at least 6 more taken off of neighboring properties.

Good job! If all the private property owners would voluntarily implement a QDM program, it would make a huge difference.

I agree that a point restriction is not the ultimate answer. As the deer herd improves, hunters will just be killing 2 year olds with better antlers. I think a point restriction would at least make an improvement in the herd, though.

Maybe a sincere drive on a state level to educate TN hunters that don't know any better and to strongly encouage them to pass on certain deer might help....? It just seems like a point restriction in the only way to effictively start a QDM program on a state level.

[DaveS]

guntroll....the doe to buck ratio in northern middle Tennessee, in the Fort Campbell area is (at last reading) was 8 to 1. The area of the state as well as Fort Campbell is overrun with does and scrub bucks. There are a few trophies around, but not like they used to be. If you're looking for "god's country" bucks here...look elsewhere! Like folks already said on here...when hunting public land, get your deer while you can...or someone else will.

Dave

[Guest GunTroll]

guntroll....the doe to buck ratio in northern middle Tennessee, in the Fort Campbell area is (at last reading) was 8 to 1. The area of the state as well as Fort Campbell is overrun with does and scrub bucks. There are a few trophies around, but not like they used to be. If you're looking for "god's country" bucks here...look elsewhere! Like folks already said on here...when hunting public land, get your deer while you can...or someone else will.

Dave

Thanks Dave. I was waiting for this response (from anyone). I believe you with your background on the ratio numbers. This to me means more does need to be shot so there is the answer to the meet issue. Problem solved here on this one.

And on the "better get it before someone else gets it" goes....all I got to say to that is a point restriction would end that. After a few hard years of no bucks being shot because there aren't legal ones around, the number of bucks would increase. Not just counting the ones that you had to pass on that first or maybe third year of a point plan but these deer will breed that otherwise would have been killed. If you limit the amount of bucks being killed before they need to be ( or reach potential) then the breeding will increase, easy consept. Not always a trophy will mate with a doe but after a while (say 5 years) The number of bucks will sky rocket because more bucks will get to breed because you can't shoot them because they fail to meet regs. Does will go down in numbers to acceptable levels and all will be good in the freezer. At this point more regs would need to come down to even the doe to buck killing. Need those does too!

Its just sad that you or others would just accept the fact that the hunting sucks in a certain area. I would think this would be motivation to try something to make it better. Am I wrong?

Keep in mind the public land hunter here. If you want to be fair and balanced....not everyone has access to private lands and the lowly public land hunters would like a shot a bigger buck than the norm. And the public land hunter can't plant food plots on WMA's I would imagine. Managing on your own land is an answer to increase rack size, but it just wont work on public lands for the public land hunter. And think about your 167 acres Dave (or anyone with land). Do you think the bucks always stay on your land? Do your neighbors 100% all the time manage the same way you do? My vision of a big buck may be different than yours. Same with your neighbors.

It will be hard in the beginning, Very hard! No one wants to be told what to do and what to kill. Its not like its going to take 10 years to see a payoff. This isn't a BS stimulus bill from you know who!!! This is QDM and will make your harvest much better year after year. And for your kids too!

I posted somewhere in here that a test run should happen on public land first to ease the way for this point min. After the public land harvested bucks started showing more growth (even within a 5 year window) and maturity, everyone would get on board. I think this could be a way to go for you land owning hold outs.

I'm not sure who said it but for some cases you do need the gov/state to tell you what to do when it comes to animals taken. You don't own them. The state does. The residents in the state do as well as a collective. If I'm wrong then feel free to never buy a license again and see what happens there! Trust me when I say a drastic improvement will happen. A large racked buck will be more common and frequent than it is now.

Sorry for the lengthy rant. I'm very passionate about deer hunting.

Just wait till next spring then I'll be all over your turkeys. I have wanted to hunt TN turkeys for a long time!

Edited July 12, 2009 by GunTroll
can't spell for crap!

[ShaunM]

It is easier as of right now for private landowners to "manage" their deer. As for public land the first deer most see they kill it. It does sound like a good idea to control the deer herds on public land at first to see how well it works.

[Louisb]

If folks want to control land and buy or lease a piece big enough to farm for large bucks . . . so be it.

It is NOT TWRA's job to manage anything for any trait other than sustainability.

Since there are so many deer farms raising deer along with their Holsteins and Gernseys all record keeping should be dropped.

Except for a few cases, it is just a matter of buying a deer and slaughtering it.

[Wingshooter]

If folks want to control land and buy or lease a piece big enough to farm for large bucks . . . so be it.

It is NOT TWRA's job to manage anything for any trait other than sustainability.

Since there are so many deer farms raising deer along with their Holsteins and Gernseys all record keeping should be dropped.

Except for a few cases, it is just a matter of buying a deer and slaughtering it.

Having lived in many other states during my life, I can say that very large deer can and do thrive in the wild. The states that had the biggest (and healthiest) deer had antler restrictions.

[Guest GunTroll]

If folks want to control land and buy or lease a piece big enough to farm for large bucks . . . so be it.

It is NOT TWRA's job to manage anything for any trait other than sustainability.

Since there are so many deer farms raising deer along with their Holsteins and Gernseys all record keeping should be dropped.

Except for a few cases, it is just a matter of buying a deer and slaughtering it.

The take from a few people (here) is that TWRA isn't doing a good job in sustainability. And what about the Albino trait? Can't kill them right? More is on the plate than just racks and scores in doing this.

Look at SC for an example. I have a farm (200 acre) there and the hunting is horrible. Something like 14 deer (either sex if I remember right, haven't hunted it in 3 years) can be taken with no restrictions on size or points. This is the product of the old "if its brown its down " way of thinking. A huge herd of puny deer that have no food to sustain the herds size. The deer look like greyhounds with hardly any horns. They use dogs too, but that is another topic! This isn't just about big bucks. It would have more effect than just larger racks. But at the same time the opportunity to get larger racks would be available. Win ,win! This is a deep buried down within difference in horn vs. meat. Some like to kill. Some like to kill and eat. And yet some like to kill, eat, and have a souvenir of the kill.

I got to ask again.....why accept the fact that your TN deer aren't large in the horn area? It can be. And it can be on all land within the state. Not just private.

I have been googling around trying to find the TN record typical ( I feel non-typicals don't count for this discussion in a way). And to know if it was taken on private or public land. Anyone know? Pictures?

[Wingshooter]

The take from a few people (here) is that TWRA isn't doing a good job in sustainability. And what about the Albino trait? Can't kill them right? More is on the plate than just racks and scores in doing this.

Look at SC for an example. I have a farm (200 acre) there and the hunting is horrible. Something like 14 deer (either sex if I remember right, haven't hunted it in 3 years) can be taken with no restrictions on size or points. This is the product of the old "if its brown its down " way of thinking. A huge herd of puny deer that have no food to sustain the herds size. The deer look like greyhounds with hardly any horns. They use dogs too, but that is another topic! This isn't just about big bucks. It would have more effect than just larger racks. But at the same time the opportunity to get larger racks would be available. Win ,win! This is a deep buried down within difference in horn vs. meat. Some like to kill. Some like to kill and eat. And yet some like to kill, eat, and have a souvenir of the kill.

I got to ask again.....why accept the fact that your TN deer aren't large in the horn area? It can be. And it can be on all land within the state. Not just private.

I have been googling around trying to find the TN record typical ( I feel non-typicals don't count for this discussion in a way). And to know if it was taken on private or public land. Anyone know? Pictures?

Looks like the record typical was taken in 1959 (a lot has changed since then). 186 1/8, but it doesn't specify where it was taken. Southeastern Outdoors - State Record Whitetail Deer

more recent article. Two are non-typical/one typical http://www.tennesseesportsmanmag.com/hunting/whitetail-deer-hunting/TN_1208_01/index.html

Edited July 12, 2009 by Batman

[Guest GunTroll]

Now thats a deer!

[DaveS]

guntroll...I see your point on a lot of the issues. I too hunt public land at times, and had nothing but public land to hunt until a couple of years ago. I have been involved in Taxidermy for many years and closed my shop 3 years ago, until I retire from the Fire Dept (September). I have seen a decline in deer size and antler size over the years. Our sub-divisions here just don't grow deer very well. Sub divisions directed at military housing is sucking up farm land in the area like you wouldn't believe. I don't know what the answers are. You may have the right idea. As far as Tennessee Dirt Scratchers (turkeys)....kill all them pest you want (within the law of course). When you get in this area, contact me...got some thing to show ya!

Dave

[Guest GunTroll]

Sounds good Dave, I'll PM you. I'll be in the area late this month. Closing on a house on the 30th outside of Springfield. Living the American dream......debt!

[memphismason]

When I started hunting a person was allowed:

4 bucks during archery

2 bucks during early muzzleloader

4 bucks during gun

2 bucks during late muzzle loader

and we had to pay extra money and apply for "Doe Permits". There were two seperate Doe permits (early and late season) and I think we could kill 2 does per permit.

I think this contributing to the state's poor buck quality.

Side note (there was a seperate license for all of those different types of hunting. They were all covered under the Big Game License....except the Doe Permits)

[ShaunM]

Like I mentioned in an earlier post seemed you could kill a million bucks in the past. Since they have dropped the buck limit and upped the doe kills, I have seen better bucks in the last few years but it's going to take a little more to get big bucks. My friends grandfather told me before he passed (he was 96)that the deer in TN was almost all killed out. He said they brought in deer from Texas to help the herds grow. He said that deer in TN used to have a red tint to them and they where much bigger body deer and their antlers where much bigger. I have seen his deer mounts and the racks on them deer have good mass and big tines.

[Guest GunTroll]

Yeah same thing from the stories of the "old" timers were I'm from. Old photos showed large mass. Not always many points but large mass. Guess it just shows the old days were glory days in a way!

[Guest GunTroll]

Not to try to stir up . But People who have voted yes for a point restriction have at least posted why they feel this way. Only WD-40 and a few others out of the 6 who are naysayers told there opinion of why they feel the way that they voted. And those reasons stated for a no point restriction sounded more personal than logical. So........

[Rightwinger]

Show examples of how this fails. And elaborate on you knowing for a "fact" of the length way being a better deal. Is it the amount of time you/majority of people have available to put in the field that drives this/your take on it? If its about an overpopulation then increase the number of tags. I see that this is a meat vs. horn style of hunting issue and neither side will come to an all agreeing decision. But bigger bucks are more rewarding to take than button bucks or fork horns IMO.

MO has been getting massive deer since instating this reg. TN isn't known to produce large racked deer and this is an option to do that. It could become a destination to hunt for non-residents like IL or Iowa, Wisconsin, MN,etc are. The south is behind on this one. I understand the meat issue but does taste good too.? And I can count points better than guess inches when it comes to that for knowing when and when not to kill.

So please enlighten......

Your right, we must do something to make bigger bucks. These little things just won't cut it.

Brothers taken this past fall

My best back in 03

We manage ourselves but do have other hunters in the area that we can't control. Still getting good deer almost yearly.

[Guest GunTroll]

........

We manage ourselves but do have other hunters in the area that we can't control. Still getting good deer almost yearly.

The other hunters would have no choice but to pass on spikes and fork horns with a point plan. Now everyone would be managing with a point plan. Good for all.

You hunt on private or public? Where were these deer taken?

Nice Deer by the way!

[DaveS]

You're right guntroll....but when I have to dodge deer after deer driving down the road, and spotted fawns are legal to hunt on Fort Campblell...that says "something ".

Something has to be done! And I feel "point restriction" is not the answer right now, until the population is under control. Until then, I will continue to shoot every deer that walks withing range of my tree stand, and allow the "big boys" to breed my does. So be it. Law is Law, and you nor I can do a dang thing about it. Meat is meat, and young bucks are as tastie as they get! HUOH!!

Edited July 14, 2009 by wd-40

[DaveS]

Odds are, private land. Just my experience is all.

Dave

[Rightwinger]

The other hunters would have no choice but to pass on spikes and fork horns with a point plan. Now everyone would be managing with a point plan. Good for all.

You hunt on private or public? Where were these deer taken?

Nice Deer by the way!

We hunt in southern middle Tennessee primarily. Those are both Wayne County deer. Taken off privately owned and leased property (side by side, that's why we leased it) The properties southern border is against the Eagle Creek Wildlife Managment area where there is public hunting. The area also has other hunt clubs in it. We don't have a hard core feeding program but we do offer the deer corn and winter wheat in the hottest times of summer, the off season in winter and put out plenty of salt licks.

[Guest GunTroll]

Says something alright! Need to blast more slick heads. If you see horns, then pass until they meet or beat the point reg. Even places with point restrictions let you blast anything under a certain inch. Even I know that people can't see the sex organs so this is acceptable.

So I have asked for some info on why not a point restriction. I have got peoples response as to why they would like to have one but, not anything worth a legitimate argument from anyone other than WD-40 for the reason behind not wanting one. Even WD's isn't head on without a doubt a good reason for NOT. Most of you naysayers probably were raised with "if its brown its down". Real hard to get past that, and I know. So again I'll ask for perhaps an article from some hunting rag or your state biologist or any biologist as to why it is beneficial to not have a point restriction.

To be fair I'll do the same for why to have one or want one.

[Guest GunTroll]

We hunt in southern middle Tennessee primarily. Those are both Wayne County deer. Taken off privately owned and leased property (side by side, that's why we leased it) The properties southern border is against the Eagle Creek Wildlife Managment area where there is public hunting. The area also has other hunt clubs in it. We don't have a hard core feeding program but we do offer the deer corn and winter wheat in the hottest times of summer, the off season in winter and put out plenty of salt licks.

Nice. Those are great deer. Good job on managing!

[DaveS]

Well, I'll close with this. When you get here, see for yourself. I do have some awesome stanky old bucks if you want to hunt and eat them. Be my guest. Just let me know. As long as the "Automotive Insurance institute" has any say in the "lobbying" matter, there will never be a "point restriction" in this part of Tennessee or Fort Campbell. On my land I do have a point restriction. You may shoot an 8 pointer or bigger, ONLY AFTER you have gotten a doe or scrub buck. It works for me! That's just me dude.