Carry in Parks - What a Crock!

[DaveTN]

I checked Kingston Springs out of curiousity and there's alot more HCP holders than I ever thought there was, many I know. Now I haven't heard anything about Kingston Springs opting out yet but I'm keeping my ears and eyes open. Anyway, if they do then it's time to talk to some that I know fairly well about being more involved in local politics and work to fire the ones who are not 2nd Amendment friendly.

Talk to them before action is taken.

[Guest 270win]

It will be interesting to see if these cities and counties that pass resolutions will actually post the proper signs in the proper locations to legally ban carry by those with permits. I think it would be difficult and costly to do so in a large park with many entrances. I sure wouldn't bring it up to government people, if a park is NOT properly posted. I'd keep my mouth shut, and conceal my handgun well, knowing I am legal. This would not be a place to openly carry a 1911 or 6 inch 357.

[K191145]

Talk to them before action is taken.

Oh definatly, do it smart but have some allies. It would be a good idea, especially in small towns to let some of the city legislators know just how many permit holders live and vote there (not mentioning any names of course), and I discovered there's a significant number here in Kingston Springs. There's also a person I know that can give me a heads up on what and who's discussing what about in the city council. Also I need to get off my lazy butt and attend some of the public meetings.

[DaveTN]

Is this going to be a ticket on a city ordinance or an arrest on a criminal misdemeanor?

[Daps]

It will be interesting to see if these cities and counties that pass resolutions will actually post the proper signs in the proper locations to legally ban carry by those with permits. I think it would be difficult and costly to do so in a large park with many entrances. I sure wouldn't bring it up to government people, if a park is NOT properly posted. I'd keep my mouth shut, and conceal my handgun well, knowing I am legal. This would not be a place to openly carry a 1911 or 6 inch 357.

True but the only thing is if you're some how caught and the police arrive how will it be sorted.

We know if it's not properly posted the sign's not legal but will some DA or judge try to get you on that you understood the intent of the sign that was posted especially after it's pretty widely know in the papers and tv whether your local park is banned or not.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Daps

[Fallguy]

Is this going to be a ticket on a city ordinance or an arrest on a criminal misdemeanor?

It will be a Class A Misdemeanor I believe.

Looking at the Public Chapter 428

If a local park is properly posted then you are violating 39-17-1311. Not 39-17-1359 or a local ordnance.

[DaveTN]

Wow… that’s the risk of a year in jail, $2500 fine and showing a weapons conviction on your record.

Think twice…. This isn’t like the business postings.

[Fallguy]

Wow… that’s the risk of a year in jail, $2500 fine and showing a weapons conviction on your record.

Think twice…. This isn’t like the business postings.

Also suspension of your HCP until all of your sentence (time {jail or probation} and fines) is taken care of.

But with such a penalty....that is another reason that the postings should be per the law. If nothing else because the sign does inform you of the possibly of 11 months 29 days in jail and a $2500.

I agree judges can do just about anything....but I think it would be at least a decent argument that you weren't given proper notice if there aren't 39-17-1311©(1) signs. Maybe at least enough to keep from getting the maximum.

[Daps]

Like I said in a previous post why chance it, even if the proper sign wasn't posted but a sign saying no guns was up. I personally wouldn't risk it. Some may have the money to fight it but I don't.

Quiet frankly I wouldn't want to run the risk of some judge saying you knew the intent of the sign

[DaveTN]

Quiet frankly I wouldn't want to run the risk of some judge saying you knew the intent of the sign

And that is exactly what I think would happen. Even with the business postings the AG opinion has left this thing wide open for anything more than a picture of a gun with a slash through it.

I can’t understand where anyone is getting the idea that these signs need to do any more than convey the message.

If you want to make an argument you will need to take the stand. At that point the Prosecutor simply asks “Did you not understand what this sign meant?â€

[Fallguy]

I do understand what y'all are saying...and agree I don't really want to be a test case....but...

Why don't we just have signs that say "Drive Safe" or "No Speeding" instead of signs that set an actual limit? I mean the first two signs would relay the intent of the government that they want you to be safe, but I think you could make a good argument that it was specific enough.

I mean a sign really does relay the intent is to ban firearms, but the AG has said that it doesn't meet the requirements of the law.

The law regarding the posting of parks is even more specific than 39-17-1359.

[DaveTN]

IWhy don't we just have signs that say "Drive Safe" or "No Speeding" instead of signs that set an actual limit? I mean the first two signs would relay the intent of the government that they want you to be safe, but I think you could make a good argument that it was specific enough.

We do have signs that say “Drive safely†they have them as you leave the rest areas. They also have pictures of seat belts and helmets, and .08 with a slash through it. We are required to know the driving laws…. Period.

Are HCP holders a little slower than the average person?

I have never seen anyone here make the argument that they didn’t know what the sign meant; only that is was not legal. That’s an argument that you would have to make in front of a Judge or jury. Good luck with that.

[Daps]

We do have signs that say “Drive safely†they have them as you leave the rest areas. They also have pictures of seat belts and helmets, and .08 with a slash through it. We are required to know the driving laws…. Period.

Are HCP holders a little slower than the average person?

I have never seen anyone here make the argument that they didn’t know what the sign meant; only that is was not legal. That’s an argument that you would have to make in front of a Judge or jury. Good luck with that.

And that's exactly what I would want to avoid. I guess if I knew the judge was a very pro gun I may would run the dice but jury errrr how many times have we had people asking how do I get out of jury duty or those on a jury were those too stupid to get off.

If it was a trespass and asked to leave ok maybe worth it, but when they talking about jail, fine and lost of HCP I'm just not that brave to be the test case. I know conceal is conceal but still

[Fallguy]

Just as we are required to know and obey the law. But so is the government.

The law says pretty clearly what has to be posted by a government to legally prohibit carry in a park. That is the intent of the legislature anyway.

As I said...I agree it is probably an argument you would have to make in front of a judge. But judges aren't scary monsters. Shoot they put career criminals back on the street every day. So I don't think they are going to lock up a HCP holder and throw away the key if you have a legal case to make that carry wasn't legally prohibited.

No, I don't think HCP holders are slower than the average person. I think they very fact that they know what the sign is trying to say, but doesn't meet the legal requirements shows just the opposite in fact.

[Guest HexHead]

I do understand what y'all are saying...and agree I don't really want to be a test case....but...

Why don't we just have signs that say "Drive Safe" or "No Speeding" instead of signs that set an actual limit? I mean the first two signs would relay the intent of the government that they want you to be safe, but I think you could make a good argument that it was specific enough.

I mean a sign really does relay the intent is to ban firearms, but the AG has said that it doesn't meet the requirements of the law.

The law regarding the posting of parks is even more specific than 39-17-1359.

"your honor, I thought the sign meant no 1911s, and I was carrying a revolver."

[K191145]

Also suspension of your HCP until all of your sentence (time {jail or probation} and fines) is taken care of.

But with such a penalty....that is another reason that the postings should be per the law. If nothing else because the sign does inform you of the possibly of 11 months 29 days in jail and a $2500.

I agree judges can do just about anything....but I think it would be at least a decent argument that you weren't given proper notice if there aren't 39-17-1311©(1) signs. Maybe at least enough to keep from getting the maximum.

And the chances are fair with all the media hype on the issue that the judge you may have decide your case is an anti-HPC liberal and would love to give the maximum penality.

[Daps]

I agree it is probably an argument you would have to make in front of a judge. But judges aren't scary monsters.

Say that in front a divorce/child custody judge and then tell me they're not scary monsters

I'm divorced and got custody of my kid I'm still a member of TN Dads mail group and let's just say men and wifes of divorced men both tell stories of how judges just ignore the law

Edited July 11, 2009 by Daps

[Fallguy]

And the chances are fair with all the media hype on the issue that the judge you may have decide your case is an anti-HPC liberal and would love to give the maximum penality.

Say that in front a divorce/child custody judge and then tell me they're not scary monsters

I'm divorced and got custody of my kid I'm still a member of TN Dads mail group and let's just say men and wifes of divorced men both tell stories of how judges just ignore the law

LOL....ok...you are both right as well.

[Guest HexHead]

Just as we are required to know and obey the law. But so is the government.

The law says pretty clearly what has to be posted by a government to legally prohibit carry in a park. That is the intent of the legislature anyway.

I agree completely, why should we be the only ones that have to follow the law?

The legal language is pretty specific in this case. Contrary to liberal thought, words do mean something. Are the city attorneys too stupid to tell the city what the sign has to say? There's no excuse for that nonsense and we shouldn't be held to the standard of "well, you should have known what they meant." That's just .

[Daps]

And the chances are fair with all the media hype on the issue that the judge you may have decide your case is an anti-HPC liberal and would love to give the maximum penality.

I don't want to be the example. I don't have the funds to do so or the want just to be honest but if any of you guys wanna take one for the team...I'd toss in a few carton of cigarettes for you just in case your case goes south and you need to use them in the form of payment to keep your poopper in the same shape it is now LOL:D

[Daps]

I agree completely, why should we be the only ones that have to follow the law?

The legal language is pretty specific in this case. Contrary to liberal thought, words do mean something. Are the city attorneys too stupid to tell the city what the sign has to say? There's no excuse for that nonsense and we shouldn't be held to the standard of "well, you should have known what they meant." That's just .

I wouldn't say they are too stupid other than they have an agenda. It's like I said earlier if you know your DA or judge lean heavy pro gun you have good odds but if you have one that leans very left you run the chance of being out of some money and time fighting

[Fallguy]

While some have suggested not notifying property owner's of signs that did not meet 39-17-1359 requirments..... I would say just the opposite on this issue.

If a city/county has voted to ban carry, but not posted proper 39-17-1311©(1) signs, then I think you should tell them, the city/county attorney, the local paper and anyone else that will listen.

Who knows...if a big enough stink gets made that they (city/county) aren't even following the law, they may repeal it if they can't afford it. Or at the very least they will raise your taxes to be able to pay for the new signs....

[K191145]

I don't want to be the example. I don't have the funds to do so or the want just to be honest but if any of you guys wanna take one for the team...I'd toss in a few carton of cigarettes for you just in case your case goes south and you need to use them in the form of payment to keep your poopper in the same shape it is now LOL:D

I decided long ago that even if a sign is improper or not, I will not carry there and most important, I will not do business or support the store or park that doesn't want me there. The only exception is government property like the VA or post office ect.

I wish there was some clause that would allow you to leave your gun in the vehicle in a post office parking lot when getting your mail.

[Daps]

I hardly go out as. I don't shop at the Mall here if at all possible. I need to look and see if the movie theater here is posted. The last time I was at Jackson 10 Cinema i didn't notice but I didnt look too hard. I try not to go to Hollywood because thats where everyone goes and I want to see the movie not everyone talking.

The only place I can think of as far as seeing the slash gun is the Waffle House and even then that's been a few years

[Guest HexHead]

Or at the very least they will raise your taxes to be able to pay for the new signs....

Or just have the COP set up more speed traps.