What constitutes a Federal building?

[Guest 1shot]

I know it is against the law in TN to carry my weapon into a Federal building or on Federal property. But what constitutes a Federal building and property in TN. I have been told that a Post Office is a Federal building and I have also been told that if a bank is FDIC insured it is constituted a Federal building. What is the truth?

[Guest Jcochran88]

post office, yes. Bank, no

[BigPoppa]

post office, yes. Bank, no

In a nutshell.......yes, this.

[Guest redbarron06]

A federal building is considered any building where "federal employees" work on a normal basis. For example the little building on LBL where you get your camping permits is a fedral building. The VA would be a federal building. Any building manned by TVA would be. A bank would not be unless it is a Federal Reserve Bank branch. Most people will not be walking into that though. There is not law that restricts carry on all federal property. For example you can carry a gun in national parks (as soon as it goes into effect). You can also carry in national forrests in some places. Some national forrests even have WMAs in them. Military bases are a different story. Open bases like Ft Stewert in GA may have one rule (mainly because it is an open base with 2 state whighways running through it) while Ft Campbell (being a closed limited access base) may have another.

[Fallguy]

Just to be clear...there is no TN law against carry in Federal Buildings. It is Federal Law that prevents carry in Federal Buildings.

There are some states that have such laws (to be redundant, I guess) but TN is not one of them.

I have always though a Federal Building is simply any building owned or leased by the Federal Government.

[Guest Patty]

Just to make it more confusing, some post office's are not Federal Buildings, some are leased. And they are owned by a private party or person. Any building that has a Federal Court house is a Federal Building, hope this helps.

[Guest HexHead]

Then there's the ones that have a name followed by "Federal Building" over the door.

Dead give away.

[Guest Patty]

Not all Post Offices are in Federal Buildings.

[BigPoppa]

But USPS regulations (which carry the weight of federal law) prohibit carry in a Postal Service facility, regardless of the owner of the building.

[Fallguy]

But USPS regulations (which carry the weight of federal law) prohibit carry in a Postal Service facility, regardless of the owner of the building.

I believe that is correct.

[Guest mikecu]

Not all Post Offices are in Federal Buildings.

All Post Offices are considered Federal Buildings whether they are leased or owned. It is the federal employees that dictate that status.

[Guest redbarron06]

So how does this extend into places like grocery stores that have post offices in them?

[Fallguy]

So how does this extend into places like grocery stores that have post offices in them?

I don't think it makes the whole grocery store off-limits, only the actual postal area.

[Guest Patty]

Just some food for thought, I found this on NortheastShooters.com. This was information from MA, but as the law is federal, it should be relevant in Nevada as well. I wish we could get a test case some where to test the law (not me of course). It would sure clear things up. This is what they had to say, directly from the post (and makes a lot of sense):

Dear Fellow NES Members and Guests:

First off - sorry for the length of this post!

I found the following excerpt on pages 380 and 381 of the Law Enforcement Guide to Firearms Law, published by Chief Ron Glidden and Atty. John Collins. This publication is used to train police officers in MA at the State Police Academy. I'm providing this information in order to clear up some confusion on the Post Office carry discussion. I contacted Atty Collins who gave me permission to post this information. Hope you find it useful. P.S. I've added the link to purchase the CD version for $41.50 directly from the Municipal Police Institute. No, I don't get any commissions on sales!!! Thanks to all of you members and users (especially Derek and the moderators) for making this such a useful and informative site. - Best regards - Randy B.

P.S.S. - For all the non-members who read this great site - please spend a small amount of money and join NES to support a very worthwhile cause!

Law Enforcement Guide to Firearms Law 11th Edition

Concealed Carry in the Post Office

18 U.S.C. §930

There is much public confusion on the legality of carrying a concealed firearm in a post office. The confusion is based in part on posters typically observed at federal buildings citing 18 U.S.C. § 930. Unfortunately, the posters do not mention the exception to the law that applies to those private citizens who lawfully carry handguns.

18 U.S.C. §930 Possession of Firearms and Dangerous Weapons in Federal Facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to –

(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United

States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or

supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

For non-law enforcement personnel in Massachusetts, in order to fall within the exception to the law, two conditions have to be met. First, one has to be engaged in the “lawful carrying of firearms.” This means you cannot be a “prohibited person” such as a convicted felon, a fugitive from justice, or fall within any of the other categories that would prohibit one from lawfully purchasing or owning a firearm under federal law.

It also means that it must be legal for you to carry the firearm under any applicable federal, state, and local laws. For example your license to carry is restricted to target and hunting, you would not be allowed to carry in a post office on the federal section. The second condition that has to be met for one to fall within the exception to the ban on carrying a firearm in a federal facility is that one must be carrying in the facility “incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.” One cannot be in the facility with intent to commit a crime, or while committing a crime, and fall within the exception.

A simple test of whether one may legally carry in a post office could involve answering four questions:

1. Is it illegal for me to carry a handgun on the street outside the post office?

2. Is there a state or local law prohibiting carry in a post office?

3. Am I violating the terms of my LTC by carrying inside a post office?

4. Am I going to commit a crime or engage in some unlawful activity once inside the facility?

If one answers “no” to all four questions, it seems that one falls within the exception to the federal ban on carrying in a federal facility. The answer to the first three questions seeks to resolve whether one is engaged in the “lawful carrying” of a firearm. The answer to the final question seeks to resolve whether one is carrying “incident to … lawful purposes.”

© 2006 380

Law Enforcement Guide to Firearms Law 11th Edition

It is important to note that the term “Federal facility” does not include a federal court facility. Even with a valid concealed weapon or handgun license, it is a federal offense to bring a firearm into a federal court facility. Under this statue, the only persons who may lawfully carry in a federal court facility are federal, state, or local law enforcement officers on official duty, or a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if authorized to possess the firearm.

Addendum

The Code of Federal Regulations contains the following regulation (excerpted in pertinent part; full text from link):

39 C.F.R. 232.1 Conduct on Postal Property:

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

However, looking further down the regulation, we see the following: (p) Penalties and other law.

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property

under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment

of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed

to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations

applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

Regulations in the CFR have to be based on laws in the United States Code, must be consistent with them, and cannot supercede them. Section (p)(2) of the 39 CFR 232.1 recognizes this fact. That is, the CFR cannot abrogate applicable Federal law.

In so far as firearms are concerned, 18 U.S.C. § 930 (a) is essentially the same as 39 CFR 232.1 (l), except that the regulations do not contain the exception for lawful concealed carry contained in 18 U.S.C. § 930 (d) (3). But by its own terms, the regulations do not override the United States Code ("Federal law"), which does allows carrying a firearm in federal facility.

In other words, the CFR cannot trump the U.S.C., and the U.S.C. allows lawful concealed carry in a federal facility.

© 2006 381

[Guest redbarron06]

Intresting, Whay say the layers here? Will this argument cut the mustard? I am assuming that being that the signs on the post office that were there prior to Tennessees HCP program (the law makes a exceptions for signs already in place when the law was passed) are similure to the current requirements.

[Guest nj.piney]

chrysler and general motor headquarters and factories ?

[Oh Shoot]

...

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to –

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

Yep, I've always wondered if this doesn't exempt anyone who can legally carry a gun in the state in which the federal facility exists.

And I would also suppose that any other "dangerous weapon" that is not proscribed by state law for that particular individual's possession would be same. (which includes specifically knives of 2.5" or greater).

- OS

[macville]

I am correct in saying that if you go to the post office, you can leave the gun in the car and still be legal? Or are you supposed to have it unloaded when you pull into the parking lot?

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

I am correct in saying that if you go to the post office, you can leave the gun in the car and still be legal? Or are you supposed to have it unloaded when you pull into the parking lot?

Matthew

You'll get two opinions on these questions.

Nobody's car has ever been searched in a post office parking lot.

(except maybe a postal employee's who has gone, you know, postal).

- OS

[BigPoppa]

(emphasis added)

Title 39 - Part I - Chapter 4

§ 410. Application of other laws

(a) Except as provided by subsection ( of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

And the USPS regulation……………….

1.4.6. Weapons and Explosives

No person while on Postal property, or while performing services under a Postal contract, shall carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed.

As in.......the USPS as what is called a "quasi-governmental independent agency" (like the CIA or NASA) can pretty much be a lone wolf, and do their own thing as they see fit as voted on by their Board of Postal Governors.

We've always said no-no to carrying in the Post Office.

[Guest redbarron06]

(emphasis added)

Title 39 - Part I - Chapter 4

§ 410. Application of other laws

(a) Except as provided by subsection ( of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

And the USPS regulation……………….

1.4.6. Weapons and Explosives

No person while on Postal property, or while performing services under a Postal contract, shall carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed.

As in.......the USPS as what is called a "quasi-governmental independent agency" (like the CIA or NASA) can pretty much be a lone wolf, and do their own thing as they see fit as voted on by their Board of Postal Governors.

We've always said no-no to carrying in the Post Office.

I am not being nit picky but that sounds like it comes out of a postal employess rule book. Kinda like no pizza hut delivery driver is supposed to have a gun on thier person or in there car when working. I am not doubting it I just think it is funny as it is worded.

[macville]

You know, it says "firearms", not "loaded firearms." Seems kinda odd since you can legally ship a rifle and a FFL can even ship a handgun. I understand not being able to carry inside a post office building (not really since the feds keep ignoring the 2d amendment), but it seems absurd if you have a legal right from your state to carry that you can't really even come onto the property with a loaded firearm. It would seem that you'd at minimum need to have it totally unloaded from the gun and the magazine.

Matthew