need pics of proper no carry sign's

[Guest Rando]

OK all of the buzz is about proper sign's being posted correctly, does anyone have pics or connections to pics that show proper wording, colors and or where they have to be placed at entrances. I would also like how much power the place of buisness has if sign's are not by the rule.

Thanks for any info, Rando

[Fallguy]

I think pics have been posted here before...but I haven't tried a search yet.

As far as wording goes...the law says the wording has to be "substainly simillar" to what is in 39-17-1359. To my knowledge there is not a legal definition or a court ruling on what substainly simillar is. IMO it needs to contain: Who is posting the property, what part(s) of the property are off-limits, refrence 39-17-1359 and mention the $500 fine.

As far as color goes...there is no required coloring of the background or lettering.

As far as where they are placed...the law says at "all entrances primarly used by the public" and that it should be "plainly visable" to the average person entering.

A place of business can tell you to leave the property if you armed, even if they do not have a posted sign, let alone an improper posting. If you do not leave then you are trespassing.

[wjh2657]

The sign below isn't the only possible rendition, but this one does include all of the parts and text listed in the TCA. I generated this sign for my MD ( He is not anti gun but does deal with patients that don't need to be near a gun!) He wanted to be legal and proper in how he went about it, so I made this one on the computer for him. I get peeved when owners who want to post say they can't "afford " the right signs. This was done on a home PC in about 5 minutes!

Edited July 3, 2009 by wjh2657

[Guest redbarron06]

When I was managing an armored car company I did the same thing in MS Word in about 3 minutes without the slashed pistol. I even listed excpetions of employees and LEO with official buisness. I made it the bigges type that would all fit on one page and printed it out and taped it to the inside of the glass on the door.

[wjh2657]

I laminated two of the signs and a copy of the TCA paragraph for the Doc to keep in his office. You can also buy card stock dirt cheap in Walmart and make very professional signs. I hate the darn things but if they are going to do it, do it right and legal. To me the current law is fair. It allows me to carry and allows the proprietor the right of property.The main thing is, if they are going to post let us know right up front legally and we can all avoid embarassment. It also let's me know that I may want to go somewhere else. Not one of the signs I have seen on TV have been in the right format.

[Guest redbarron06]

I laminated two of the signs and a copy of the TCA paragraph for the Doc to keep in his office. You can also buy card stock dirt cheap in Walmart and make very professional signs. I hate the darn things but if they are going to do it, do it right and legal. To me the current law is fair. It allows me to carry and allows the proprietor the right of property.The main thing is, if they are going to post let us know right up front legally and we can all avoid embarassment. It also let's me know that I may want to go somewhere else. Not one of the signs I have seen on TV have been in the right format.

The only signs I have seen in the whole state that have been correct were the ones on govt buildings in downtown Nashville. My wife works for HCA and all of thier hospitals are posted wrong.

[DavidD]

The only signs I have seen in the whole state that have been correct were the ones on govt buildings in downtown Nashville. My wife works for HCA and all of thier hospitals are posted wrong.

Makes you wonder, do they even really mean what they are supoesedly trying to say or are the just trying to appease someone while not actually pissing others off?

[56FordGuy]

Makes you wonder, do they even really mean what they are supoesedly trying to say or are the just trying to appease someone while not actually pissing others off?

Honestly, with all the misinformation out there about the law, and gun related laws in particular, I seriously doubt that the majority of improperly posted businesses have incorrectly posted intentionally. I'd bet most just don't know any better.

[DavidD]

Honestly, with all the misinformation out there about the law, and gun related laws in particular, I seriously doubt that the majority of improperly posted businesses have incorrectly posted intentionally. I'd bet most just don't know any better.

I suppose. Wishful thinking on my part

[wjh2657]

Makes you wonder, do they even really mean what they are supoesedly trying to say or are the just trying to appease someone while not actually pissing others off?

I am afraid that somebody's lawyer will have to find out in civil court. They'll win, but there will be a big attorney fee attached! I am for everybody being able to exercise their rights. I just want them to do it legally! I didn't just throw a gun in my pocket. I took the classes and went through the licensing program to be able to carry. The posters can take the time to read the law and then post correctly. They need to take responsibility for their decision and live with the possibility of consequences (if any actually do occur.) If they don't want my business, then post. Don't blame the government for it! On the other hand I can understand the logic (I may not agree with it wholeheartedly) that certain types of establishments and institutions may feel that the need for public safety requires them to post and I may still go there. That is my choice and the law allows us both a choice.

[Glenn]

Something I have not been sure about. Say you carry in a place that is posted but you determine is not properly posted, somehow you get busted and the court finds that the sign was "substantially similar" enough, do you lose your carry permit? A $500 fine would be bad but not as bad as losing you permit.

Glenn

[Fallguy]

Something I have not been sure about. Say you carry in a place that is posted but you determine is not properly posted, somehow you get busted and the court finds that the sign was "substantially similar" enough, do you lose your carry permit? A $500 fine would be bad but not as bad as losing you permit.

Glenn

Not automatically.

The $500 fine suggest the violation is a Class B misdemeanor.

A felony will cause you to loose permit and a Class A misdemeanor will cause it to be suspended for the duration of the sentence.

However there is always the catch all in the law. 39-17-1352(a)(3) says a HCP can be revoked or suspended if the holder "Poses a material likelihood of risk of harm to the public". That would be determined by the DOS. To be honest I don't think that is likely for a violation of 39-17-1359...but it is out there.

[Glenn]

Thanks Fallguy. I thought I had heard somewhere that you would lose your permit but I couldn't find verification.

Glenn

[Oh Shoot]

The $500 fine suggest the violation is a Class B misdemeanor.

Also a Class B can include 6 months jail time, although it's not mentioned in the posting notice, so have no idea if this is a special "fine only" penalty or what.

- OS

[Fallguy]

Also a Class B can include 6 months jail time, although it's not mentioned in the posting notice, so have no idea if this is a special "fine only" penalty or what.

- OS

You are right about a Class B misdemeanor and the 6 months. Here is what the law actually says.

40-35-111(e)The authorized terms of imprisonment and fines for misdemeanors are:

(2)

Class B misdemeanor, not greater than six (6) months or a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500), or both, unless otherwise provided by statute;

The last line in all the grades of misdemeanors "unless otherwise provided by statute" means what ever the statute says has the final determination on where it is just a fine, just jail or both. If there is nothing in the statute then 40-35-111 sets the standards.

So 39-17-1359 provides for a fine only and no jail time and based on the fact the fine is $500 is why even though it doesn't say in 39-17-1359 I think a conviction of it is a Class B misdemeanor.

[Glenn]

I always figure if they don't want me I will spend my money somewhere else.

Thanks

Glenn

[Guest Rando]

Thanks for the info, I was working the Zoomers in Pigeon Forge just past the Food City and it was posted on the front. I cant remember word for word but it was in red print with a white background. I will be working it again next week and will check it better.( Does not mean I will buy anything while in there) They do not support us why support them I say.

Have a good one,Rando

[Magiccarpetrides]

All the Aztec gas stations are PROPERLY posted also...so I spend my money elsewhere.

[Guest 270win]

I have noticed that St Francis Hospital leaves off the whole last sentence of the posting law. I am curious if your gun is forfeited IF by chance you are caught and you have a real jerk police officer that won't let you take it back to your car. Is your gun gone forever in addition to the possible max $500 fine? It is nice to know that your handgun carry permit probably won't be gone. Maybe this is a good reason why one shouldn't carry a gun that he isn't willing to lose...on top of the reason that if you use it for self defense it probably will be held by police for a while.

[Guest redbarron06]

Makes you wonder, do they even really mean what they are supoesedly trying to say or are the just trying to appease someone while not actually pissing others off?

I dont think so. When I was managing Armored car my wife worked at Centinnial adn I went to pick her up one day for lunch. I as walked to her office the chief of security stopped me and asked me why I was wearing a gun. I told him

1. they were not properly posted,

2. it would look funny to be wearing a duty belt with no gun in the holster,

3. it would attract attention to the unmaned car that likley had a gun in it since the driver got out and had an empty holster

4. I was going to get my wife for lunch unless he wanted a charge of false arrest to get out of my way.

Later that night I printed the TCA and told my wife to pass it to the guy sinces his office is right next to were hers was. 4 years later they are still not proplerly posted.

[DaveTN]

OK all of the buzz is about proper sign's being posted correctly, does anyone have pics or connections to pics that show proper wording, colors and or where they have to be placed at entrances. I would also like how much power the place of buisness has if sign's are not by the rule.

Thanks for any info, Rando

Here is what the Attorney General had to say about it. Keep in mind an AG opinion is not law.

His opinion leaves this wide open and up to the responding Officer.

I have never heard of anyone being arrested for this.

Opinion No. 07-43

Posting Notices that Handguns Are Not Permitted in Private Buildings

QUESTIONS

1. In order to prohibit handgun permit holders from carrying their handguns in a nongovernmental building, must the sign contain the exact language set forth in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359(a)?

1. No. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359(a) requires the posting of a notice which uses language that is “substantially similar†to the language provided in the statute.

[Guest Rando]

OK someone said something about a Hospital or Doctor's office I thought such places were a no go while carrying anyway.

[56FordGuy]

OK someone said something about a Hospital or Doctor's office I thought such places were a no go while carrying anyway.

Unless they're properly posted, or in a building that is properly posted, I believe that they're okay.

[wjh2657]

They have to be posted. The Doctor that I helped had already checked this and that was why he wanted guidance in posting properly.

[Fallguy]

OK someone said something about a Hospital or Doctor's office I thought such places were a no go while carrying anyway.

As 56FordGuy said, only if they post.

The only places off-limits by TN law are....

• Inside any place that serves alcohol for onsite consumption. (39-17-1305) Restaurants legal on 7/14/09 (Public Chapter 339) depending on the lawsuit.
  
• Any room where a judicial proceeding is taking place. (39-17-1306)
  
• Schools. (39-17-1309 and 39-17-1310) Exception for picking up or dropping off students.
  
• Local Parks and recreational property. (39-17-1311) Legal on 9/1/09 unless the local government opts out and post. (Public Chapter 428)
  
• Any place with a properly posted sign per 39-17-1359
  

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/firearms-law-faq/13408-reference-material-some-basic-questions.html

Edited July 5, 2009 by Fallguy