a Tennessee perspective

[dunndw]

I'm stil ltrying to figure out why the guy isn't screaming in pain after having his leg slammed in the door 4 or 5 times.

I was on my phone and didn't know he was there, couldn't figure out why the door wouldn't shut so I slammed it with my foot a few times.

[Guest gunslinger707]

Quick Draw McGraw would KaBong him with his KaBonger !!!

I would KaBong him wif my oxygen tank!! lol

[Cruel Hand Luke]

OK with the LIMITED amount of info we have......

1. No description of lighting conditions. What time is it?

2. No description of whether there are other vehicles (mine) parked in the driveway.

3. NO DESCRIPTION of the robber. Is he 5'6 110lbs or he 6'6 300lbs? Is he heavily muscled or is he just heavy?

4. Is he wearing his "gang uniform"?

5. Is he visibly armed? ie bulging gun shaped "lump" under his shirt ?

6. What ethnicity is he?

7.What is the prevailing legal climate regarding self defense in my part of the state? That makes a BIG difference.

8. Are there any neighbors outside?

These are 8 things that I came up with off the top of my head that all were NOT listed in the OP but will have some effect on things. And those 8 things will change to one degree or another the way I would react to the situation.

So lets fill in some blanks......

If it is dark I would have flashlight out palmed and light up the car ordering him out.FIRST I would make sure that there were no accomplices hiding behind the other cars (if any) or by the house BEFORE I approach him. It is all fun and games until you get jumped from behind....

Assuming I am positive he is alone, and darkness, I would light up the car with the light and VERY LOUDLY, so that the neighbors are alerted, order him out of the car and off my property while I stand at the edge of cover ...remember he MAY have a gun. They tend to NOT like to be spot lighted and have attention drawn to them. So I would use the light to illuminate what he is doing. I would NOT draw my gun yet though.

IF he complies fine, let him go. Give a description to the cops when they get here 27 minutes from now and file a report with my insurance.

Now, IF he is NOT obeying then I have a decision to make....do I go pepper spray him or do I go try to physically remove him or do I just do nothing and wait? Here is where the more you know the less likely you are to want to lay hands on him....

Let's say he is secretly armed with a knife like I am right now. In under 2 seconds I can access it from my belt and pop a ballon taped to the neck of a target an arms reach away. If you go to clamp on to him and give him the heave ho and he comes out with the knife and you do not see it you could be done before you even realize that was not just a punch to your jugular but a stab.......so I'm VERY hesitant to go hands on unless I HAVE to. Are you willing to DIE for a radio? I'm not.

Or let us say I did NOT make sure he was alone. I go to grab him and he just wraps me up and his buddy steps in from behind and shanks me with a rusty butcher knife...nice. Hope that ambulance can get here faster than the cops do....

Now let us say he just explodes from the car and tries to tackle me? I sprawl avoiding the low tackle or go to my default cover to counter a high strike to the head(a technique used to cover your head and to keep from getting knocked down or knocked out) then work for better position and do whatever I have to do to effectively stop his agression. Think Knees elbows chinjabs hammerfists and takedowns followed by bouncing his head off the pavement if I have to. But again I have a very narrow window because if he is armed with a knife and gets a chance to access it I will probably get cut or stabbed the longer this goes. And the longer it goes the more likely he is to find my gun and now I'm in a retention situation not just handing out a casual ass beating.....I know how much it sucks to be wrestling over a gun with someone. Not something you want to be real the first time you try it.

Again, I'm not pulling my gun unless I HAVE to.

The OP was kind of ambiguous on that. He made it sound like you DID have it out already. I would not draw it until I could articulate WHY I felt in danger of grave bodily injury or death...

So let us make the BG 6'6 300 lbs and he gets out of the car with a wrench in hand and steps toward me. There is a VERY good chance he is going to get shot. If he is 5'6 and gets out with a knife...same story.

But until he presents a weapon I am not in fear of grave bodily injury or death so NO GUN .....yet.

But NONE of this stuff was in the OP so it was difficult to answer THAT limited question.

The problem is you can LOOK at a situation's backstory (light conditions,proximity of cover,proximity of innocent bystanders,size and assumed ability of the BG etc etc) and make judgement in split SECONDS that would take PAGES to explain on the web....

I assume EVERY potential adversary to be

1. Armed with knife and gun

2. Trained with both

3. MMA trained

4.TMA trained

5. In better shape than I am

6. To not care whether he lives or dies

7. to HAVE AN ACCOMPLICE (or 2)

So I build my responses around these worse case scenarios NOT around the likely 110 pound meth head looking to score $20. And in so doing I have a set of responses that solve COMPLEX problems along with the basic problems.

But maybe I should just rush out and stomp him....

You see the original question was the equivilant of asking "how do I get out of it when dude gets inside my guard and starts working ground and pound?" Simple question? Right?

No.

Tha answer depends on many variables not set forth in the question...am I armed? Is he armed? Do I have friends there? Does HE have friends there? Are THEY armed? Do I know this guy? Why are we fighting? Is this a fight on the parkng lot stemming from a robbery attempt or is this a Thanksgiving misunderstanding between politically opposed family members ?

Any logical person can see how these all would affect how we would react...Context is king.

If you want to rush in an pummel him fine.If you are confident in your ability to the point that you will risk your life to proactively lay hands on an opponent of unknown skill and unknown armament then that may be the right answer FOR YOU. I hope that works for you, but I've seen it not work enough times to be really hesitant to lay hands on people I do not HAVE to. However I fear it would NOT be the right answer for the vast majority of normal folks who read this forum.

That is why I said Packinmama (pepper spray) and Good Steward (Release the hounds!) might have the best answers. I'm not ready to die or put myself in a potentially deadly situation that can go really bad really fast over a car stereo.....But your mileage may vary.....and this stuff is about life and death...cute little bumper sticker answers don't cut it when someone's life might be endangered by the answers you give.....

Edited July 2, 2009 by Cruel Hand Luke

[catsbackr]

Excellent, excellent answer and explanation, Randy.

[Guest clsutton21]

I'd stab the guy in the achille's. see what happens...stab the guy in the arm if he comes at me, or watch him limp away. if he still comes at me, shoot him in the kneecap opposite of the achille's leg. Then kick him to the ground and wait for the cops. that may just be my 21 year old mentality though.

[Guest AmericanWorkMule]

more from the thread....

Perhaps. Fortunately, most thugs don't know how the law works for honest & law abiding people. But the few that do know, or have had some "jailhouse training" can be dangerous to good citizens. Three recent cases, one of them here in the SF area, showed that thieves caught in the act, raised their hands, apologized and then simply walking out/away. One (in Oregon) walked off with a $400 impact hammer set while saying "it's illegal to shoot me in the back for just taking property". Frightening.

In this case, the thief revealed that another thief told him not to threaten anyone, but just walk off or tell the guy he can't shoot over mere property. And it had worked for him four times so far! This speaks well of our citizens in that they don't seem to go overboard using force. The thief also risks getting killed or shot by someone ignorant of the way the laws work.

When I first read the original thread I got MAD because it reminded me of when it kind of happened like that to me when I was young, unarmed, and just a weak 16 y/o kid as dudes took my stuff.

[Currently]

If you slam that car door hard enough, something will go crunch and they won't be able to walk away.

In Texas however, seems they got a different set of rules ... one can protect property.

[Guest AmericanWorkMule]

What if you went outside and the thief's buddy, or buddies came out of the shadows to help him out?

[Superman]

Then you are in fear for your life, shoot them all.

[Guest Mugster]

Good point.

The info presented was the guy was in the car, it seems the stereo is either being stolen, or you had just won a free surprise install of a premium system from Crutchfield.com.

At this point, you want the guy out of your car, but is he really a lethal threat to you?

Is the next step beyond yelling at him and calling the cops to clear leather?

The reason I am really stressing that people think about this is I have a good friend who was in a similar situation (actually it was 3 on 1) and that person cleared leather.

Guess what guys? The LE, DA, and Court system is pretty unpredictable!

One would assume that 3 on 1 is a no-brainer for pulling your gun, right?

Wrong.

That person was not only charged, but ended up with a guilty conviction!

So, my point is; better be 105% sure that you were 2 seconds away from bodily injury or death, because you may find your ass sitting in jail for defending your 8 track!

+1

Use a gun, any gun against unarmed men, prepare to be prosecuted. Could be more than 3, and the charges will likely stick. I see that as a certainty, not unpredictable at all. You do some shooting in a middle class neighborhood, the DA will be on you like a dog on a bone.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Mugster

[Guest Mugster]

I think you have 2 legitimate options

1. Do nothing. Stay inside and call the cops.

2. Run outside, either unarmed or with a holstered handgun and yell at the guy, and hopefully he'll run off. You better to be ready to wrastle around for that handgun.

I wouldn't risk my dog unless it was an all or nothing fight. I've lost my best dog to a crook one time. Shot him in the hip with birdshot to run him off to rob the house. Leg swelled up, nerve damage. Had to put him down.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Mugster

[Good_Steward]

I wouldn't risk my dog unless it was an all or nothing fight. I've lost my best dog to a crook one time. Shot him in the hip with birdshot to run him off to rob the house. Leg swelled up, nerve damage. Had to put him down.

Well, the thing with that is, in this case, if I give my dog the command, the guy would have to already have the weapon out to use it before he was attacked. As I mentioned in an earlier post, he is a Shutzhund trained dog. Shutzhund translated means "protection dog" literally. In that case, there would never be a question. BG shot dead at first sign he had a weapon and intended to use it.

[dralarms]

I'm here to tell you that if the sucker is breaking into my truck with a leg hanging out I'm gonna body block that door as hard as I can. I'm not dragin him out for a beat down, forget that crap. I will break his leg if possible with the car door and then sit there with my gun trained on him waiting for the cops. If the cops tell me 30 min. I'm gonna tell them never mind just send the meat wagon. Garantee they will be there in under 5.

Those of you who have met me know I'm a big fella, that being said I can move pretty fast when necessary, however I've never felt that taking on someone bare handed when you know they at least have a electric screwdriver (or worse) in their hands to be a smart thing to do. Me I'm gonna keep the bugger in the truck intill the cops get there if I can, he wanted to be there, let him stay, but that leg hanging out of the door is gonna be messed up.

[Guest 3pugguy]

I seen this on another site where members are from all over the world. I wanted to post this here to keep this in a Tennessee perspective and wanted to see what you guys would do.

Take a baseball bat to his knees or better yet, his ankles (or +1 on another poster's idea to slam the door on his dumb ass); that would more than likely chill his efforts in short order. I keep a baseball bat at the ready (nice and light - good for thrust or swings) as well as guns.

A gun is not always needed nor could we make a case of why we used it (if I understand the TN law which I think I do). My two cents.

[Guest 3pugguy]

I'm here to tell you that if the sucker is breaking into my truck with a leg hanging out I'm gonna body block that door as hard as I can. I'm not dragin him out for a beat down, forget that crap. I will break his leg if possible with the car door and then sit there with my gun trained on him waiting for the cops. If the cops tell me 30 min. I'm gonna tell them never mind just send the meat wagon. Garantee they will be there in under 5.

Those of you who have met me know I'm a big fella, that being said I can move pretty fast when necessary, however I've never felt that taking on someone bare handed when you know they at least have a electric screwdriver (or worse) in their hands to be a smart thing to do. Me I'm gonna keep the bugger in the truck intill the cops get there if I can, he wanted to be there, let him stay, but that leg hanging out of the door is gonna be messed up.

I'm with you. But I'd bet if you slam that door in and provide a crushing break (or three), I doubt Carl Carthief would have any fight in him.

[Guest Mugster]

Well, the thing with that is, in this case, if I give my dog the command, the guy would have to already have the weapon out to use it before he was attacked. As I mentioned in an earlier post, he is a Shutzhund trained dog. Shutzhund translated means "protection dog" literally. In that case, there would never be a question. BG shot dead at first sign he had a weapon and intended to use it.

I was under the impression you'd send your dog out and stay inside. You going to shoot the guy through the window if he shoots your dog? You'd be crucified if you told that story to the cops.

And, in terms of dog training, all dog training is designed to control the dog before the fight starts. Once the fight is on, a dog can become an unguided missle and probably will. Happens all the time. I'd worry that if the guy ran, shot or not, the dog would follow. Then you lose the dog or the cops find the body an hour later with your dog fastened the guy's leg/arm/neck. Either way, that ain't no good for you, and even if you get out of it, they'll put the dog down for sure.

[Guest GunTroll]

Sounds overly complicated. Door to leg and then more door to leg. If and when he's pinned then you yell to the wife to bring more pain aiding devises out to you while turning on all outside lights before she comes out. Then drag that BG out and zip tie him off, all the while the wife is gunned up and on the watch for others. Then sit back with a bigger gun aimed at BG and wait.

[Guest Phantom6]

I would submit that a knee caught in the door of an automobile, slamed by 248 lbs of pressure delivered from my big angry ass would be enough to not only get the BG's attention but let him know just how serious I was in my demand that he immediately cease his criminal activity. If that's not quite enough, then a few blows delivered to a variety of available nerve motor points would I believe, quickly raise the BG's level of compliance.

A handgun is simply one tool in my kit. It is the biggest and baddest hammer I own and is my tool of last resort. If your hammer is the only tool you've got available to you then every problem you encounter damned well better be a nail. Otherwise, you may very well be screwed.

[shamless plug] Shameless plug here: Take our Pressure Point Control and Expandable Baton class in August and let us add some tools to your tool kit. [/shamless plug]

[Good_Steward]

"I was under the impression you'd send your dog out and stay inside. You going to shoot the guy through the window if he shoots your dog?"

The situation stated that I would have been OUTSIDE with the BG. If you read the OP you would see that. If I'm out, giving this guy a desist command, and he basically laughs at me, I'm turning the dog loose on his a**. If a weapon comes out, then he would be killed without question. I didn't think that was hard to understand?

And another thing, the dog is NOT an "unguided missle". The training is very strict in the fact that he must stop on command.

http://www.schutzhund-training.com/protection.html

You might want to educate yourself about things you don't know before making comments about them.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Good_Steward

[Guest Mugster]

"I was under the impression you'd send your dog out and stay inside. You going to shoot the guy through the window if he shoots your dog?"

The situation stated that I would have been OUTSIDE with the BG. If you read the OP you would see that. If I'm out, giving this guy a desist command, and he basically laughs at me, I'm turning the dog loose on his a**. If a weapon comes out, then he would be killed without question. I didn't think that was hard to understand?

And another thing, the dog is NOT an "unguided missle". The training is very strict in the fact that he must stop on command.

Schutzhund-Training.com - Protection

You might want to educate yourself about things you don't know before making comments about them.

I plugged in "k9 attacks bystander" to google, and found this in about 1 second.

Escambia sheriff's K-9 attacks woman | pnj.com | Pensacola News Journal

Or do you really think your dog, that has never bitten anyone or probably never been in a fight is going to do better than a police K9 that lives with its handler and does it every day?

Here's a good one, lol:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/11/AR2008021101616_pf.html

Here's a perfect illustration from the above article:

In 1993, Officer Gregory O. Chandler was tracking a robbery suspect near Forestville when a police dog named Castro charged him from about 50 yards away and clamped down on his right arm.

"You could tell its adrenaline was really flowing -- this dog was tasting blood and flesh," said Chandler, who resigned after the attack but still bears dark scars on his arm. "I was hollering for someone to shoot the dog, but [the handler] kept saying, 'No, no!' "

Like I said, unguided missle. I've been around hunting dogs my whole life. I'm pretty sure I both understand the problem and also understand dogs.

And its murder to shoot a guy that decides to shoot your dog. Thats 20 years in the big house.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Mugster

[DaveTN]

The scenario is not likely (the part where he tells you to go piss up a rope) but I’ll play along.

When I see him in my car I am approaching him with my gun in my hand and pointed at him. I am not going “hands on†with anyone while I am armed.

My wife has told the cops I have him a gun point. That means they are responding lights and Siren. I am 2 miles from the Rutherford County Sherriff’s office so this is not going to last long.

If he continues working on stealing my stuff he will be in custody. If he comes at me he will be shot. If he turns and runs I will simply observe where he goes and let the cops handle it.

As for a dog… When I go outside my Doberman will be in the yard, but I will not let him get to the perp. If the perp pulls a gun he will be shot. I don’t care whether he is going to shoot me or the dog and I’m not waiting to find out. I can’t think of a better case for the use of deadly force.

Would I shoot if he runs? No. Am I going to physically engage him when I have no idea what he has in that car with him? No. I wouldn’t have done that when I was a cop and I was young, 10 feet tall and bullet proof then; I’m not anymore.

I have always said I would not shoot anyone to protect property, but in this case if he comes at me or pulls a gun; it’s not about property anymore.

[Good_Steward]

I plugged in "k9 attacks bystander" to google, and found this in about 1 second.

Escambia sheriff's K-9 attacks woman | pnj.com | Pensacola News Journal

Or do you really think your dog, that has never bitten anyone or probably never been in a fight is going to do better than a police K9 that lives with its handler and does it every day?

Here's a good one, lol:

Pr. George's Police Beset By Own Dogs

Here's a perfect illustration from the above article:

In 1993, Officer Gregory O. Chandler was tracking a robbery suspect near Forestville when a police dog named Castro charged him from about 50 yards away and clamped down on his right arm.

"You could tell its adrenaline was really flowing -- this dog was tasting blood and flesh," said Chandler, who resigned after the attack but still bears dark scars on his arm. "I was hollering for someone to shoot the dog, but [the handler] kept saying, 'No, no!' "

Like I said, unguided missle. I've been around hunting dogs my whole life. I'm pretty sure I both understand the problem and also understand dogs.

And its murder to shoot a guy that decides to shoot your dog. Thats 20 years in the big house.

You sound like liberals quoting instances with ccp holders. Find one out of a million, and you're all over it. It's not murder when a guy breaking into my car decides to pull a weapon for whatever reason. How do I know if he plans to shoot the dog or me? It's not murder, it's self defense. You go ahead and let the guy walk off. You have just identified yourself as a victim. Me personally, I will be more than happy to use whatever means the situation merits to defend myself, family, and home. And your hunting dogs are a far cry from what I'm talking about. Different being trained to run rabbits vs. protect your owner.

[Good_Steward]

As for a dog… When I go outside my Doberman will be in the yard, but I will not let him get to the perp. If the perp pulls a gun he will be shot. I don’t care whether he is going to shoot me or the dog and I’m not waiting to find out. I can’t think of a better case for the use of deadly force.

Absolutely, Dave. I agree 100%. Apparently though, to some people, if someone pulls that gun, you're not allowed to defend your home or property. Maybe he'll just go away if I "nice" him enough.

[Guest Mugster]

As for a dog… When I go outside my Doberman will be in the yard, but I will not let him get to the perp. If the perp pulls a gun he will be shot. I don’t care whether he is going to shoot me or the dog and I’m not waiting to find out. I can’t think of a better case for the use of deadly force.

Absolutely, Dave. I agree 100%. Apparently though, to some people, if someone pulls that gun, you're not allowed to defend your home or property. Maybe he'll just go away if I "nice" him enough.

Hmmm, well, the law says you can't use deadly force in this state to protect property except livestock. And no, the dog doesn't count. I guess you choose your path and I'll choose mine.

[Guest Mugster]

You sound like liberals quoting instances with ccp holders. Find one out of a million, and you're all over it. It's not murder when a guy breaking into my car decides to pull a weapon for whatever reason. How do I know if he plans to shoot the dog or me? It's not murder, it's self defense. You go ahead and let the guy walk off. You have just identified yourself as a victim. Me personally, I will be more than happy to use whatever means the situation merits to defend myself, family, and home. And your hunting dogs are a far cry from what I'm talking about. Different being trained to run rabbits vs. protect your owner.

Now that right there, is funny. I might print that out and tack it on my wall.