a Tennessee perspective

[Guest AmericanWorkMule]

I seen this on another site where members are from all over the world. I wanted to post this here to keep this in a Tennessee perspective and wanted to see what you guys would do.

Passive Non-Compliance

This is based on a situation in which a friend of mine in another state experienced. I'd like to get your take on what you'd do.

You are at home and it is "trash night". You decide to take out the trash, then put the trash can out by the curb. You're still wearing your CCW pistol, covered with a shirt or light jacket. Additionally, you live in the suburbs, so this is not a rural area.

When you leave the house to dump the trash, you hear strange noises from the driveway. When you look, you see the passenger door is open and one leg sticking out below the door of your still kind-of new 2008 car. Next to the leg is your car's CD player and a piece of dashboard trim. You can hear the whirring of a ratchet tool from inside the car.

You slip to a window and tell a family member what's happening and to call 911. When you return, you decide to confront Carl Carthief to prevent further damage to your car.

You tell him not to move and to raise his hands slowly. He looks over his shoulder, sees you have your weapon (if you'd use it at this point) and says "No." Then resumes his disassembly of your car. Again you repeat the commands and he raises one hand slowly, then drops your car's stereo on the ground. He tells you to go commit some anatomically impossible act and returns to wrenching on your car. Whatever order you give him, he simply replies "No" or tells you to go away and stuff yourself.

Your wife, thinking she's being "helpful" yells from the window that she's called the police and that "they said it'll be about 30 minutes!" [thanks a lot, dear]. You hear Carl Carthief chuckling inside the car and then your car's steering wheel airbag unit lands next to the radio and CD player.

Now what?

[Guest m&pc9]

I would swear he threatened me with the ratchet right before I shot him. Or he brought a kitchen knife with him.

[BimmerFreak]

I think the term "skull drag" comes to mind.

At this point, I would be pissed and ready to protect my personal property, but in no way feel my life is threatened.

Both of my hands would be free, as my gun would still be holstered, which allows me to snatch his thieving ass out of my vehicle and onto the ground.

I still believe in a good old fashioned beat down, so lethal force remains my final option.

[Mr. Brooks]

I would tell my wife to let my large, hungry dog out for a nice little snack.

[Garufa]

Well, first off I'd grab that leg, pull his ass out of the car in one swift motion, then deliver a beat-down.

[Guest bugmanz]

you say "hey ,let me help you close that car door"and in a hard and fast manner you do so over and over. when he turns to attack with the ratchet tool ,in gen. patton's words from the movie,you'll know what to do.

[BrasilNuts]

I am with bugmanz

"...the passenger door is open and one leg sticking out below the door..."

That's what's referred to as an opportunity.

Edited July 2, 2009 by BrasilNuts

[Guest clownsdd]

Swift kick in the gonads usually works

[krunchnik]

you say "hey ,let me help you close that car door"and in a hard and fast manner you do so over and over. when he turns to attack with the ratchet tool ,in gen. patton's words from the movie,you'll know what to do.

+1 on the slam his body in the door enough times should get his undivided attention,our luck the BG would bring us up on assault charges and win knowing our court system.

[Motasyco]

you say "hey ,let me help you close that car door"and in a hard and fast manner you do so over and over. when he turns to attack with the ratchet tool ,in gen. patton's words from the movie,you'll know what to do.

This was my immediate thought when I saw the door was open with a leg sticking out.

[I_Like_Pie]

You have a legal right to forcefully remove someone from your property. If you try and they elevate the situation you can proceed with said beatdown.

Most people/police agree that the middle step is somewhat optional. The problem still lies that if you tear the guys ears off that he may seek civil damages...so it puts you as a homeowner in somewhat of an "all or nothing" situation.

This very thing happened to my best friend not long ago. He tackled the door of his Durango with the person's leg hanging out of it. 10 or so MPH with 200# of mass I suppose left quite an ouch-ie on the BG...which ran off and was never seen again.

[Good_Steward]

That's when the loving family pet boxer, Lucky, reveals his Schutzhund 3 (SchH3) training. Good boy, Lucky! lol, that's 90 lbs of pure a** whuppin' in "protection" mode.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Good_Steward

[PackinMama]

Wow, a boxer with Schutzhund 3 (SchH3) training! All my boxers ever knew how do do to someone was lick them to death!

As for the situation that was posted.....I'm a woman, so I couldn't do the beat-down thing that you guys can do. Personally, I think I would have my mace in one hand and my gun in the other......I would mace him and if he came at me after that, I'd use my gun. Of course, being a woman, we can "be in reasonable fear of our lives" a lot easier than a man can be. A man's bare hands can be a "lethal weapon" against a woman. So even though we are at a physical disadvantage against an attacker, we have certain other advantages that can work for us if we have to use lethal force.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Too many variables not explained in the original post but so far Good Steward or Packinmama probably has the best answer.

For those of you who are certified card carrying bad asses this does not apply, but to the rest of the world....

when is the last time you administered a beat down to someone?

When is the last time you tried to administer a beat down to someone who DID NOT CARE that you were armed?

MIght he just be a smart ass who does not think you will use it?

Maybe.

Might he be a BAD ass who has beaten people down and taken guns from people before?

MAYBE. You just do not know.

You know there is video of convicts working on disarms in prison yards.....

So on that note how many of us here have actually gotten some kind of training in disarms, retention, In Fight Weapons Access, and are comfortable enough with their ability to go hands on with someone of UNKNOWN ability ? Who might also be armed, and who is NOT afraid of you....For all we know this guy may be the "student of the month" at the local MMA gym, who was actually in a REAL fight maybe as recently as yesterday, Who gets in REAL fights with other real bad guys regularly and who right now might also be armed with a knife or gun or who knows what....

Again if you are reading this and you make Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Paul Sharp, Tom Sotis and Leo Gaje cry, then disregard...but if you are not in that category..and that includes most everyone....I'd SERIOUSLY think twice before approaching someone by yourself and laying hands on them ESPECIALLY if they are not afraid of your gun.....

Edited July 2, 2009 by Cruel Hand Luke

[BimmerFreak]

Too many variables not explained in the original post but so far Packinmama probably has the best answer.

For those of you who are certified card carrying bad asses this does not apply, but to the rest of the world....

when is the last time you administered a beat down to someone?

When is the last time you tried to administer a beat down to someone who DID NOT CARE that you were armed?

MIght he just be a smart ass who does not think you will use it?

Maybe.

Might he be a BAD ass who has taken guns from people before?

MAYBE. You just do not know.

You know there is video of convicts working on disarms in prison yards.....

So on that note how many of us here have actually gotten some kind of training in disarms, retention, In Fight Weapons Access, and are comfortable enough with their ability to go hands on with someone of UNKNOWN ability ? Who might also be armed, and who is NOT afraid of you....For all we know this guy may be the "student of the month" at the local MMA gym.

Again if you are reading this and you make Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Paul Sharp, Tom Sotis and Leo Gaje cry, then disregard...but if you are not in that category..and that includes most everyone....I'd SERIOUSLY rethink approaching someone and laying hands on them ESPECIALLY if they are not afraid of your gun.....

I got a little confused halfway through your post, as its hard for me to focus posts from condescending experts, so let me ask you to actually tell us what YOU would do.

It SOUNDS like you are suggesting that unless you are a prize fighter, that the correct response should be to go to guns.

Is that what you are saying?

I will refrain from giving my opinion, until you clarify exactly what you are suggesting, but for the record I have absolutely no problem go hands on as the next evolution in my use of force continuum.

And personally, if someone (that knew me, and my experience) suggested that the next logical step would be for me to go guns up, they are an idiot and dangerous in their preaching.

(your situation and mileage my vary)

[Kegger]

I like Joe's answer lol. Been subjected to it, not fun.

Or I'd just pistol whip the bastard.

[Good_Steward]

Wow, a boxer with Schutzhund 3 (SchH3) training! All my boxers ever knew how do do to someone was lick them to death!

As for the situation that was posted.....I'm a woman, so I couldn't do the beat-down thing that you guys can do. Personally, I think I would have my mace in one hand and my gun in the other......I would mace him and if he came at me after that, I'd use my gun. Of course, being a woman, we can "be in reasonable fear of our lives" a lot easier than a man can be. A man's bare hands can be a "lethal weapon" against a woman. So even though we are at a physical disadvantage against an attacker, we have certain other advantages that can work for us if we have to use lethal force.

Yeah, Lucky's a little over 3 now, and had a little over 2 years of training to reach that level. I know that I've told you before that I travel a lot, and thought this would be a fantastic idea for home protection while my wife and children were home alone. Fortunately, the only time he has been given the "angreifen" (Attack! in German) command while in training. He did, however, score a 270 (max of 300) in training, so he is very enthusiastic about his job. Other than that, he is a typical Boxer. All play and a lot of slobber!

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I got a little confused halfway through your post, as its hard for me to focus posts from condescending experts, so let me ask you to actually tell us what YOU would do.

It SOUNDS like you are suggesting that unless you are a prize fighter, that the correct response should be to go to guns.

Is that what you are saying?

I will refrain from giving my opinion, until you clarify exactly what you are suggesting, but for the record I have absolutely no problem go hands on as the next evolution in my use of force continuum.

And personally, if someone (that knew me, and my experience) suggested that the next logical step would be for me to go guns up, they are an idiot and dangerous in their preaching.

(your situation and mileage my vary)

Wow...........I suggest people actually take a second and THINK before they rush into laying hands on someone of unknown ability and you call me a "condescending expert"?

Well.....O.K. then...........

I never suggested any course of action because as I stated in the post there are too many variables unmentioned in the original premise. Oh and we also are JUST ASSUMING that he is alone......

I merely suggested that there are seriously bad dudes out there. And that MOST poeple reading this forum honestly would not fit into that category. And that if your gun does not frighten someone then that might be a clue that this guy is not just a 16 year old punk.

I also CLEARLY STATED that if you are physically skilled to the point that you are confident about going hands on with someone of unknown ability that my suggestion to THINK FIRST before rushing in to deliver a beat down does not apply to you.

[gunsablazin]

I'm with Randy on this one, I'm pretty skilled with a pistol, but I am not a "badass" of any sort. Personally I'm not willing to kill or get killed over a car radio, etc. The recommendation to think before doing something that may not be such a great idea is pretty sound if you ask me.

[PackinMama]

I agree with Cruel Hand Luke and Gunsablazin.

Most of us are not equipped to give a person of questionable ability, strength, fighting experience, and weapon posession a "beat down."

Good Steward, That is pretty cool about "Lucky." I seriously would never have imagined an attack trained boxer. That would actually give you, or your wife and kids a major advantage if he had to go on attack.....no BG would ever expect it!

[E4 No More]

You have a legal right to forcefully remove someone from your property. If you try and they elevate the situation you can proceed with said beatdown.

Most people/police agree that the middle step is somewhat optional. The problem still lies that if you tear the guys ears off that he may seek civil damages...so it puts you as a homeowner in somewhat of an "all or nothing" situation.

This very thing happened to my best friend not long ago. He tackled the door of his Durango with the person's leg hanging out of it. 10 or so MPH with 200# of mass I suppose left quite an ouch-ie on the BG...which ran off and was never seen again.

So my 280 lbs would be even better!

[Good_Steward]

Good Steward, That is pretty cool about "Lucky." I seriously would never have imagined an attack trained boxer. That would actually give you, or your wife and kids a major advantage if he had to go on attack.....no BG would ever expect it!

Actually, Boxers are one of the original Shutzhund dogs, along with Rottweillers, Dobermans, German Shepherds, Bouviers, and Giant Schnauzers.

[BimmerFreak]

Wow...........I suggest people actually take a second and THINK before they rush into laying hands on someone of unknown ability and you call me a "condescending expert"?

Well.....O.K. then...........

I never suggested any course of action because as I stated in the post there are too many variables unmentioned in the original premise. Oh and we also are JUST ASSUMING that he is alone......

I merely suggested that there are seriously bad dudes out there. And that MOST poeple reading this forum honestly would not fit into that category. And that if your gun does not frighten someone then that might be a clue that this guy is not just a 16 year old punk.

I also CLEARLY STATED that if you are physically skilled to the point that you are confident about going hands on with someone of unknown ability that my suggestion to THINK FIRST before rushing in to deliver a beat down does not apply to you.

So, the task of this exercise (per the OP) was to:

I wanted to post this here to keep this in a Tennessee perspective and wanted to see what you guys would do.

I think that playing the "there are too many unknowns" is weak and you should either use the limited info given in this scenario to give everyone an idea of what YOU would do, or dont bother posting in the thread.

Are there many unknowns? Yep. Such as life.

There isnt a right or wrong answer here guys.

You dont get extra credit for sandbagging your answer.

If you think you should come out of your house guns blazing, tell us and explain why.

If you think that kicking the guy in the jewels is the way to go, explain why.

Again, there is no right or wrong here. Explain your tactics and why they work for you.

This allows us to view the situation from another persons perspective, and perhaps learn or apply some of their suggestions to your mental kit.

I think think Packinmama made a great case here.

She said:

I'd use my gun. Of course, being a woman, we can "be in reasonable fear of our lives" a lot easier than a man can be. A man's bare hands can be a "lethal weapon" against a woman. So even though we are at a physical disadvantage against an attacker, we have certain other advantages that can work for us if we have to use lethal force.

That makes sense to me!

I dont share her tactics and elevation of force because im different from her, have different training and physical abilities.

I think it would be easy to defend herself in court over her use of force, where someone like myself my find it harder to convince a judge or jury that lethal force was my only option.

So, we can hide behind instructor-speak, or we can just participate in the discussion, present your case and explain why it would work in your particular situation.

[Good_Steward]

Joe, I can see both sides. Honestly, I have other means aside from my firearm to defend myself and family. In this situation, I would not hesitate to be in a physical confrontation with this person, because I do not believe it merits use of deadly force. If the situation is escalated by the BG by, let's say pulling a knife, then I would not hesitate to kill him for the sake of my safety. So yeah, there are a lot of unknown circumstances. Such is life.

[BimmerFreak]

Joe, I can see both sides. Honestly, I have other means aside from my firearm to defend myself and family. In this situation, I would not hesitate to be in a physical confrontation with this person, because I do not believe it merits use of deadly force. If the situation is escalated by the BG by, let's say pulling a knife, then I would not hesitate to kill him for the sake of my safety.

Good point.

The info presented was the guy was in the car, it seems the stereo is either being stolen, or you had just won a free surprise install of a premium system from Crutchfield.com.

At this point, you want the guy out of your car, but is he really a lethal threat to you?

Is the next step beyond yelling at him and calling the cops to clear leather?

The reason I am really stressing that people think about this is I have a good friend who was in a similar situation (actually it was 3 on 1) and that person cleared leather.

Guess what guys? The LE, DA, and Court system is pretty unpredictable!

One would assume that 3 on 1 is a no-brainer for pulling your gun, right?

Wrong.

That person was not only charged, but ended up with a guilty conviction!

So, my point is; better be 105% sure that you were 2 seconds away from bodily injury or death, because you may find your ass sitting in jail for defending your 8 track!