Interesting Facebook Group dealing with HB0962

[Guest ScottD]

Phantom,

I'm pretty sure TN does not define the difference between a bar and restaurant. If so, that argument on a few of your points is invalid.

[Guest Phantom6]

Oh, but the way I read the bill (HB932) it does.

The Act to amend TCA 39.17, relative to firearms otherwise known as HB962 specificlly states the following:

"( As used in this subdivision ©(3), “restaurant” means any public place kept, used, maintained, advertised and held out to the public as a place where meals are served and where meals are actually and regularly served, such place being provided with adequate and sanitary kitchen and dining room equipment, having employed therein a sufficient number and kind of employees to prepare, cook and serve suitable food for its guests. At least one (1) meal per day shall be served at least five (5) days a week, with the exception of holidays, vacations and periods of redecorating, and the serving of such meals shall be the principal business conducted."

On top of that, the Act further states,

"© This subdivision ©(3) is subject to the provisions of § 39-17-1359, permitting a property owner to post notices on such property prohibiting firearms."

Why should restaurant and bar owners not have the same responsibilities or rights that any other business open to the public has, that is the responsibility or right to post their place of business "off limits" to firearms?

[Motasyco]

Arizona has passed a similar bill to ours. It's on the governor's desk:

On Thursday, the Arizona Senate passed Senate Bill 1113 by a vote of 19-8. The bill now heads to the desk of Governor Jan Brewer ® for her consideration. The Governor has ten days, not counting Sundays, to sign or veto the bill. SB1113 would allow concealed carry permit holders to take concealed handguns into restaurants that serve alcohol, provided they are not consuming. SB1113 joins two other bills, Senate Bill 1168 and Senate Bill 1243, that have already made their way to the Governor. SB1168 would permit a law-abiding individual to store their firearms in their locked motor vehicle while parked on a publicly accessible parking lot controlled by their employer or a business they frequent. SB1243 would clarify the statutory definition of defensive display of a firearm.

[macville]

Oh, but the way I read the bill (HB932) it does.

The Act to amend TCA 39.17, relative to firearms otherwise known as HB962 specificlly states the following:

The only thing is almost no place that serves alcohol has a TN "Bar" license. Most places have the restaurant license because it's far easier to get. I have yet to go in a "bar" in TN that doesn't serve full meal food--aka more than appetizers.

Matthew

[Fallguy]

Some of y'all should really get away from the cities.

In dry counties where liquor is illegal.....there are plenty of "taverns" "beer joints" that serve beer all day an night...but no such thing as a meal, kitchen, 75+ seats or the like around.

I bet you dollars to donuts, when the media keeps saying "Guns in Bars" these are the type places that people who live in there areas are thinking carry will be allowed in now. Although we all know that's not true.

[Guest Doc44]

The only thing is almost no place that serves alcohol has a TN "Bar" license. Most places have the restaurant license because it's far easier to get. I have yet to go in a "bar" in TN that doesn't serve full meal food--aka more than appetizers.

Matthew

How about some of these places??

Nightlife Entertainment Guide | Nashville Tennessee | Knoxville Tennessee | Bars, Clubs, NightClubs, Venues, Live Music

My favorite bar was the No Name Bar in Willachoochee, Ga.

http://www.covnews.com/news/article/7771/

They got famous, expanded and the monkey died.

Doc44

Edited July 6, 2009 by Doc44

[Guest Phantom6]

The only thing is almost no place that serves alcohol has a TN "Bar" license. Most places have the restaurant license because it's far easier to get. I have yet to go in a "bar" in TN that doesn't serve full meal food--aka more than appetizers.

Matthew

I'm not sure that there is an actual bar license. The bill as enacted makes it pretty clear that a microwave, popcorn and pickled pigs feet do not a restaurant make for purposes of this bill.

[Worriedman]

I seem to remember reading somewhere, but can not find it now, of a 51% food to 49% alcohol sales requirement to keep the "Restaurant" specification for insurance purposes in TN.

Anyone have access to this information, or am I misremembering again?

[Guest HexHead]

I seem to remember reading somewhere, but can not find it now, of a 51% food to 49% alcohol sales requirement to keep the "Restaurant" specification for insurance purposes in TN.

Anyone have access to this information, or am I misremembering again?

AFAIK, there is no percentage test in TN. That would have made this entire discussion of what's a bar or not unnecessary. I've read that other than a "restaurant" license, there are three other licenses available. That would be for hotels, government owned entities or bars run by charitable 501©(3) organizations.

[Guest Phantom6]

.....Anyone have access to this information, or am I misremembering again?

Oldtimers a settin' in there? I know it must be for me 'cause I thought I posted Dread's response but I can't see where I did. In any event here is the exchange below which he has now shut down. At the bottom in his last response when he refuses to address most of the points that I called him on, he states that he can not discuss the matter any further as he is involved in litigation.

Editor's note: Looking at the spelling or more appropriately the keyboarding in the last message from Mr. Dread, one would think he may have had one too many Scotches before he hit send at 11:49 central last night. I wonder if that is the case,whether or not he was out at a BAR and drove home? Hmmm.

---------------------------------------------

Mr Crow,

Thank you for your information. There is a problem here. In Tennessee, all "bars" are considered restaurants. There is no difference under the law. That needs go be corrected before this law can go into effect.

Further, I have no problem with non-metropolitian counties "opting in." I submit this new law is bad for Nashville, period. Thank you.

Adam Dread

---------------------

Mr. Dread,

You replied:

"There is a problem here. In Tennessee, all "bars" are considered restaurants. There is no difference under the law."

Oh, but the way I read the bill (HB932) it seems that it does.

The Act to amend TCA 39.17, relative to firearms otherwise known as HB962 specificlly states the following:

"( As used in this subdivision ©(3), “restaurant†means any public place kept, used, maintained, advertised and held out to the public as a place where meals are served and where meals are actually and regularly served, such place being provided with adequate and sanitary kitchen and dining room equipment, having employed therein a sufficient number and kind of employees to prepare, cook and serve suitable food for its guests. At least one (1) meal per day shall be served at least five (5) days a week, with the exception of holidays, vacations and periods of redecorating, and the serving of such meals shall be the principal business conducted."

Am I wrong here? Please explain.

On top of that, the Act further states,

"© This subdivision ©(3) is subject to the provisions of § 39-17-1359, permitting a property owner to post notices on such property prohibiting firearms."

In your opinion do you feel that restaurant and bar owners should not have the same responsibilities or rights that any other business open to the public has, that is the responsibility or right to post their place of business "off limits" to firearms?

By the way, thanks for your permission for those of us in the hinterlands "opt-in" to subscription to the laws of the state of Tennessee.

As for your statement that you "submit this new law is bad for Nashville, period", I would submit that you continue to be disingenuous as the Facebook group I found you on is simply another facet of the website www.gunsandalcoholdontmix.org which repeatedly states "it is important to overturn a law passed on misguided information in order to keep Tennessee establishments safe." As such it is my belief that you are not simply concerned with metropolitan Nashville but with the state as a whole.

In your response, regarding what you state as fact that "... all "bars" are considered restaurants. There is no difference under the law. That needs go be corrected before this law can go into effect." So now, which is it? Do we need to make the deliniation clearer or overturn the law? Just what is your position here? Please enlighten me.

Mike Crow

--------------------

Re: Your "Talking Points"

"Mr Crow,

I'm sorry to say that, yes, you are wrong. All "bars" must serve "regular meals" to get a liquor (or beer ) liscence. The Stae has never enforced this, hence the illusion that there is a legal distiction b/w reataurants ancd bars. As we are cyrre ntly in litigation, I must refrain from really discussiing this further at this time. Thank you."

-----------------------------------

I'm pretty sure that this guy has an agenda that reaches far beyond his worry for the public safety regarding this restaurant carry thing. I may be wrong but I believe that it all revolves around the money he stands to make off of this "coalition of like minded individuals". This guy apparantly is proud of the fact that he has been voted the "Third best DUI attorney" in the Nashville Metro area and displays a scrolling marquee on the index (Home) page of his Durham and Dread Law Firm website. (BTW, he received this auspicious award via a Best of Nashville 2007 Readers' Poll conducted by The Nashville Scene on 4 October, 2007.) A guy like that doesn't do pro bono work. He's created scads of "billable hours" for himself and his firm. In order for a firm to succeed attorney's have to generate billable hours but setting up your own "coalition of the like minded" (that term cracks me up in this case) and promoting it as he is, seems unethical to me. He's ripping those restaurant owners and other members of his coalition off as well as threatening our legal rights. Someone here once earlier asked if he had ever been backed over by an ambulance and I would submit that that is entirely possible.

[Guest HexHead]

I'm pretty sure that this guy has an agenda that reaches far beyond his worry for the public safety regarding this restaurant carry thing. I may be wrong but I believe that it all revolves around the money he stands to make off of this "coalition of like minded individuals".

Don't miss page 29 of the complaint. That's where they ask for the state to award them legal fees.

The only reason he got "3rd Best DUI Attorney" is because the Nashville Scene doesn't give out an award for "Best Ambulance Chaser".

[Worriedman]

I found this very interesting article:

http://www.comptroller1.state.tn.us/repository/SA/pa97092.pdf

"The notice contains the commission’s interpretation of Section 57-4-101: The principal

business of an establishment deriving 50 percent or more of its gross revenues from serving meals

will be considered a full-service restaurant. However, if an establishment receives less than 50

percent of its gross revenues from food sales, the commission will consider the following factors

in determining the establishment’s principal business:

1. The percentage of gross sales obtained from food.

2. Any history of operation as a restaurant without the serving of

alcohol.

3. The presence of income-producing activities other than the

service of food, the percentage of income derived from such

activities, and the priority given to such activities in advertising,

etc.

4. The percentage of space allotted to the serving of food as

opposed to that allotted to serving alcohol or other activities.

5. The number and percentage of personnel employed in the

preparation and serving of food.

7

6. The diversity of food offered and the times offered.

7. The ratio of investment in equipment and fixtures required in

the preparation and serving of food versus the investment in

equipment and fixtures for serving alcohol or other incomeproducing

activities.

8. Any other factors indicating an intent to operate as a

restaurant and to have as the principal business the serving of

meals."

The "Food Audits" conducted, and letters of reprimand, and fines issued for those having less than 50% sales volume of food bears looking into.

[Guest Phantom6]

You my friend are a genius. How in the world did you come across that? That would seem to define the term restaurant by the Tennessee Alcoholic Bev. Comm.

[Guest Phantom6]

Don't miss page 29 of the complaint. That's where they ask for the state to award them legal fees.

The only reason he got "3rd Best DUI Attorney" is because the Nashville Scene doesn't give out an award for "Best Ambulance Chaser".

Yup, I need to send him one last message on his Facebook account and remind him that when he hears that high pitched beeping sound he should get out of the way. ..................Or, maybe not.

[Worriedman]

You my friend are a genius. How in the world did you come across that? That would seem to define the term restaurant by the Tennessee Alcoholic Bev. Comm.

Search the Web till your fingers bleed.

Further chasing the facts, there are no "Bars" in TN. If the establishment fails to derive 50% of their revenue from food sales, they are fined or closed.

Ergo,there can be no "Guns in Bars" Bill in TN.

[Guest HexHead]

You my friend are a genius. How in the world did you come across that? That would seem to define the term restaurant by the Tennessee Alcoholic Bev. Comm.

Seems to me these places that are out to get us, err post need to be investigated themselves. Let's put the bastards out of business.

We need to start taking a scorched earth policy with those that oppose us. I don't want to hear any of that whiney crap about "shouldn't a private business be able to post if they want to?", you're either with us or against us.

Edited July 7, 2009 by HexHead

[Guest Doc44]

"Further chasing the facts, there are no "Bars" in TN. If the establishment fails to derive 50% of their revenue from food sales, they are fined or closed."

There are at least two within six miles of me right now that should be fined or closed. Wonder to who and how often these places pay these "fines"?

This whole process could root out some BIG skunks.... cause something is starting to stink.

Doc44

[Guest HexHead]

"Further chasing the facts, there are no "Bars" in TN. If the establishment fails to derive 50% of their revenue from food sales, they are fined or closed."

There are at least two within six miles of me right now that should be fined or closed. Wonder to who and how often these places pay these "fines"?

This whole process could root out some BIG skunks.... cause something is starting to stink.

Doc44

You can be sure those are the places that are "politically connected".

[Guest PapaB]

Evidently the A.B.C. has been violating the law for awhile now. Here's an excerpt from this (http://www.comptroller1.state.tn.us/repository/SA/pa97092.pdf) 1998 report.

"FINDINGS

Some Food Audits Not Conducted and License Suspension or Revocation Not Initiated

State law allows restaurants to sell wine and other alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises if the licensee has adequate kitchen equipment for serving meals, provides seating for at least 75 people at tables, and serves food as its “principal business.†The commission completed only 53% of its scheduled food audits to determine if food service was a restaurant’s principal business. In some cases, the commission did not attempt to suspend or revoke the licenses of establishments that were serving little, if any, food and/or were not providing the minimum seating (page 6).

Licenses Renewed When Licensees Owed Delinquent Taxes

By renewing licenses when licensees owed delinquent taxes, the commission failed to enforce state statute forbidding such renewals. The licenses of 36% of the liquor-by-the-drink licensees reviewed were renewed even though the licensees owed delinquent taxes. The amount of taxes owed ranged from $477 to $24,044 (page 16)."

They should require the law be followed and get rid of any A.B.C. board members that don't do their jobs.

It sounds like they've now amended the lawsuit to argue Tenessee has bars because the "restaurants" that serve almost no food haven't been shut down. Since patrons can't tell which ones are 'bars' hb0962 is unconstitutionally vague.

Restaurant lawsuit amended to say gun law confusing | tennessean.com | The Tennessean

Ony anti-gun fools could come up with such a twisted argument.

Edited July 7, 2009 by PapaB
not formatting properly

[Guest Doc44]

Do I detect the stinch of corruption, under the table money,........ politics and alcohol don't mix.

"They" may regret they started this brush fire next to a powder keg.

Doc44

[Daps]

Here are their talking points...pay close attention to #4.

1. Bars can often be sites of confrontation. The last thing we need in them is ready access to firearms.

Bar's are still banned as far as I know

2. When firearms are allowed on bar premises, bars' and restaurants' liability insurance skyrockets, leading to higher prices for food and beverages.

Are there any stats for this? I pretty sure some insurance companies would raise some fees

3. Servers don't need to be in the position of patting down customers, or asking them if they have a permit for their weapon. They aren't policemen.

Why would a server pat me down? No they aren't the police nor would I let a server pat me down

4. According to the law, people carrying guns can't drink in the bar, which means they're taking up a seat that could be used by a paying customer.

Bars are still prohibited I think but just because I don't drink doesn't mean I wouldn't buy some hot wings or shoot pool

5. You've seen kids get out of hand in restaurants. Imagine the tragedy of one going through mommy's purse and pulling the trigger on her gun. Or what if some homicidal drunk who doesn't have a gun decides to grab one he sees on another patron? Concealed doesn't mean "hidden."

I answer this with a few weeks ago a Sheriff grandson got in her purse while shopping at the Goodwill and put a bullet through the ceiling and she's back at work.

6. Guns aren't allowed in Legislative Plaza, yet they're perfectly happy with folks carrying them into bars... the hypocrisy of their workplace vs. ours!

There's that bar word again. I think we should be allowed to carry on the Legislative Plaza also

7. It is illegal to drink while armed. A person who consumes alcohol while packing a pistol may be in violation of the law, but that won't matter when someone dies in a heated barroom brawl from a gunshot wound.

True you shouldn't drink and carry but I remember my dad telling me when he was young about one of my older cousins pulling a gun in bar before and there sure weren't any permits back then so unless they've got a metal detector those that want to break the law and carry in a bar will continue to do so

8. Hunters bring flasks and beer on their hunting trips-- does anyone really think someone is just going to go to a bar, armed, and just hang out and not drink?

I don't hunt so no idea what hunters take. Why do they keep saying bars? If they want to use Chillis as an example, yes I've gone there and not drinked

9. Even when fired with the best of intentions, bullets sometimes go astray. Fewer guns means there will be fewer accidents and mistakes.

True *bleep* happens and there will be hell to pay if you miss and hit someone else. Fewer cars on the road will mean fewer accidents.

10. This new law is making Tennessee a laughingstock. http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/106/Bill/HB0962.pdf will modify Michie's Legal Resources Didn't click the link but I'm guessing it has to do with carry in restaurants. That bill isn't making up a laughing stock. It's the panties in a wad crowd that's suing and crying that's making us a laughing stock when surrounding states allow it already, that and that law passed a few years ago saying it was ok to eat roadkill is what's making his the laughing stock

11. Bars are chaotic and noisy and loud. The controlled environment of a pistol range does not qualify a person to think and react the way police officers do. We don't need vigilantes in bars.

Don't think anyone is advocating that we carry to be the police

12. Finally, if you are so worried about your safety that you feel you need to be packing a pistol to go into such-and-such bar... then you just need to go somewhere else.

I don't go to bars, just because I don't go looking for trouble doesn't mean it won't come looking for me. Heck you're not even safe in a church now a days and that at one time was the most sacred place you could be.

STOP THE INSANITY!

I know the OP didn't make these comments. I was just posting my responses. You know at one time when I 1st got my permit about 13 years or so ago I was like heck yeah if I see someone needing protecting and the situation called for deadly force I would step up to the plate but now heck no, cell phone 911, description as I go the other way. If you can legally buy a firearm to protect yourself or learn some form of self defense then that's on you. Also it would be my luck the person would be an anti and say why did you shoot the guy for. There are very few and I mean very few exceptions to my rule on this

[BrandonTN]

Well it turns out they didn't ban me from the group, they just disabled my posting privileges. Idiots...