Interesting Facebook Group dealing with HB0962

[BrandonTN]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but Dread seems to be one of the creators of this group...

Guns and Alcohol Don't Mix | Facebook

[BrandonTN]

Here are their talking points...pay close attention to #4.

1. Bars can often be sites of confrontation. The last thing we need in them is ready access to firearms.

2. When firearms are allowed on bar premises, bars' and restaurants' liability insurance skyrockets, leading to higher prices for food and beverages.

3. Servers don't need to be in the position of patting down customers, or asking them if they have a permit for their weapon. They aren't policemen.

4. According to the law, people carrying guns can't drink in the bar, which means they're taking up a seat that could be used by a paying customer.

5. You've seen kids get out of hand in restaurants. Imagine the tragedy of one going through mommy's purse and pulling the trigger on her gun. Or what if some homicidal drunk who doesn't have a gun decides to grab one he sees on another patron? Concealed doesn't mean "hidden."

6. Guns aren't allowed in Legislative Plaza, yet they're perfectly happy with folks carrying them into bars... the hypocrisy of their workplace vs. ours!

7. It is illegal to drink while armed. A person who consumes alcohol while packing a pistol may be in violation of the law, but that won't matter when someone dies in a heated barroom brawl from a gunshot wound.

8. Hunters bring flasks and beer on their hunting trips-- does anyone really think someone is just going to go to a bar, armed, and just hang out and not drink?

9. Even when fired with the best of intentions, bullets sometimes go astray. Fewer guns means there will be fewer accidents and mistakes.

10. This new law is making Tennessee a laughingstock. http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/106/Bill/HB0962.pdf will modify Michie's Legal Resources

11. Bars are chaotic and noisy and loud. The controlled environment of a pistol range does not qualify a person to think and react the way police officers do. We don't need vigilantes in bars.

12. Finally, if you are so worried about your safety that you feel you need to be packing a pistol to go into such-and-such bar... then you just need to go somewhere else.

STOP THE INSANITY!

[Fallguy]

I believe it is connected to the website in this thread...

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/23494-has-anyone-else-seen-website-yet.html

[Steelharp]

Dread's a dork. Guns in BARS are still illegal. Olive Garden, Texas Roadhouse, etc., aren't bars.

[Steelharp]

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."

George Washington

Dread probably thinks HE was the dork...

[Guest benchpresspower]

Something I don't fully grasp is the liability issue. During my HCP class I was told that you yourself are held liable for damages caused during a self defense situation and that the insurance companies aren't going to help you. Wouldn't this pertain to restaurants as well?

[Guest benchpresspower]

And is it just me or is Dread just trying to get his 15 mins of fame?

[Guest Doc44]

Its all about money. As others have said, a person legally carrying in a eatery that serves booze will be taking up a seat and not buying booze. This cuts into their sales. These people could care less about the public safety of this issue. This is upsetting because here we have a small, special interest group wanting to overturn a passed law and deny everyone's legal constitutional right in order for them to profit financially. Certainly a judge can and will see this as well unless he/she is blinded by a greased palm.

One thing you can bet on when the law comes into effect is that these burger flippers wil raise the price of cokes and iced tea.... and water too.

Doc44

[Wingshooter]

Every one of those points has failed logic. A lot of their arguments are not even specific to restaurants/bars but to the HCP in genneral (kid going through mommy's purse...) Maybe we should do a Facebook with talking points about vigillante restaurant owners that spin the truth for personal gain at the expense of others.

How many people have they killed by serving them alcohol? They just don't care about public safety

[Guest HexHead]

And is it just me or is Dread just trying to get his 15 mins of fame?

More like 15 minutes of free self promotion for his ambulance chasing.

[Guest redbarron06]

4. According to the law, people carrying guns can't drink in the bar, which means they're taking up a seat that could be used by a paying customer.

I guess we should not allow designated drivers in bars either???

[analog_kidd]

I guess we should not allow designated drivers in bars either???

DD is the only reason I'd even be going to a bar, so I definitely would not be drinking, and I definitely would want to be carrying.

[Guest ScottD]

I schooled them quite a few times in the comment section. Eventually they basically asked me to leave. Libtard gun banners don't like to be wrong with their fallacies.

[Guest Smitty]

These people are just ignorant, stupid, and stubborn beyond all belief. I can see now you will be unsuccessful changing their minds no matter how many logical, rational, or statistical data you show them to prove them wrong otherwise. I bet all of these supporters are the "Fearful" type as described in the article I posted in the 2nd Amendment part of the forums called "Know Thine Enemy". Some of their list of rules are just plain ignorant like the one about hunters taking beer with them. If they know anything about hunting or firearms laws in general, you cannot drink while in possession of a firearm, and that includes while you are hunting! I only had a cold one when I was back at camp relaxing for lunch and taking a nap before the evening hunt. There is nothing wrong with that. Besides, the law will be for FAMILY RESTAURANTS THAT SERVE ONLY NOT EXCLUSIVELY BARS & NIGHTCLUBS! Everyone knows if you really want to go to a bar or nightclub you are doing to be drinking unless you are the designated driver, so that negates the fact you cannot carry a firearm anyway period. Plus, most bars and nightclubs are probably properly posted anyway. Anyway, enough of my rant. I just want to get that off of my chest.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Smitty

[Guest dizzielizzie]

As a HCP, I have done my best informing my friends & family of the laws, and especially the new laws. This is all we can reasonably do to help inform those who don't know them.

I admire and thank those who have gone out of their way to meet, speak with, etc. establishments to try and convince them to take down their "no" signs. I also can see an establishment's point of view when they do post the no, and find myself torn between my rights and a business owner merely trying to cover their butt.

I'm concerned at this point about the "uninformed" thinking "I can now bring my gun into the bar/restaurant." I hope at this point, when the first incident occurs, it's not a HCP holder.

I don't, however, care for anyone advocating to take away my rights (or otherwise criticize me) because they obviously don't understand we're the "good guys." We've taken the class, we know the laws, we had the background check. We know the difference between right & wrong, and have the card in our pockets to show it. Let these people rant & rave all they want, they obviously can't take a moment to step back & see things from any other point of view than their own.

[BrandonTN]

Well they just booted me from the group for asking why we don't ban patrons from drinking and/or entering the establishment who have car keys on them since we all know cars and alcohol don't mix. I thought it was a valid question. I also asked for stats of DUIs originating from said restaurants vs. shootings. Oh well, not having to respond to those loonies should lower my blood pressure back down to a reasonable level.

[Wingshooter]

Well they just booted me from the group for asking why we don't ban patrons from drinking and/or entering the establishment who have car keys on them since we all know cars and alcohol don't mix. I thought it was a valid question. I also asked for stats of DUIs originating from said restaurants vs. shootings. Oh well, not having to respond to those loonies should lower my blood pressure back down to a reasonable level.

I'm sure that weighed too heavy on thier consciences. They know they are wrong, but they have a liberal agenda. Those are very good and valid questions.

Maybe I'll join their group and ask the same questions. See how fast I can get booted...

[Fallguy]

Well they just booted me from the group for asking why we don't ban patrons from drinking and/or entering the establishment who have car keys on them since we all know cars and alcohol don't mix. I thought it was a valid question. I also asked for stats of DUIs originating from said restaurants vs. shootings. Oh well, not having to respond to those loonies should lower my blood pressure back down to a reasonable level.

LOL...you should know you can't use logic and facts to make your point.

Especially when they are using emotion and just making up stuff....

[JayC]

Dread's a dork. Guns in BARS are still illegal. Olive Garden, Texas Roadhouse, etc., aren't bars.

Well more importantly, under current TN state law, bars which serve liquor are illegal in the state of TN... Maybe the real solution here is to have the TN ABC enforce state law and revoke liquor licenses for these bars since they're not restaurants.

[Guest HexHead]

Well more importantly, under current TN state law, bars which serve liquor are illegal in the state of TN... Maybe the real solution here is to have the TN ABC enforce state law and revoke liquor licenses for these bars since they're not restaurants.

We'll need a lawsuit to get that done.

[Guest SUNTZU]

I thought we could get anything we wanted at Alice's Restaurant? They need to start taking all these liberal press releases and start calling them Story Time. Gather round, children...

[Guest boatme99]

Well according to the very first sentence, bars are places of confrontation! Well, THERE'S your problem. Close the bars! They're evil!

[Guest m&p40]

These people are totally oblivious to the fact that they are around people with guns all the time and dont even know it, and know even though its legal they still wont know it.

[Worriedman]

Here are their talking points...pay close attention to #4.

5. You've seen kids get out of hand in restaurants. Imagine the tragedy of one going through mommy's purse and pulling the trigger on her gun. Or what if some homicidal drunk who doesn't have a gun decides to grab one he sees on another patron? Concealed doesn't mean "hidden."

8. Hunters bring flasks and beer on their hunting trips-- does anyone really think someone is just going to go to a bar, armed, and just hang out and not drink?

Item #5, the Jackson DA does not think this is too big a deal, he declined to prosecute a Deputy Sheriff who let a child shoot a hole in the roof of a retail store in Jackson with her duty weapon that was unsecured in her purse. And whose fault is it if a "Homicidal drunk" is loose upon the public in a restaurant, surley the manangement itself would be liable for that?

Item #8, sounds like Dread is used to violating the law himself, as he continues to say he is a gun owner and hunter, guess the girls he goes out with are a bunch of law breaking idiots.

All this talk of how dangerous the gun is when associated with alcohol, it seems to me that they are making the case that it is the jerk behind the trigger who needs to be watched out for, and that the quality of individual who is so stupid as to drink and hold a weapon is more along the line of caliber of people that are bringing the suit, not the average HCP Holder who is smarter than that!

[Guest Phantom6]

Not that it will change his mind or halt his activities but I sent the following to Mr. Dread's facebook account as well as his firm's fax-

------------------------------

Greetings Mr. Dread,

As a firearms instructor with over 43 years of experience with small arms, a certified Tennessee Department of Safety Handgun Carry Permit instructor, a carry permit holder and a citizen of the state of Tennessee, I take strong exception to the outright false-hoods and ignorant scare tactics that you and your compatriots are spreading throughout or communities.

I found the following “talking points†on the facebook account of which you are listed as “Consigliere†and I would now like to address each below.(Your talking points are each numbered while my responses are bullet pointed, as ironic as that may seem)

1. Bars can often be sites of confrontation. The last thing we need in them is ready access to firearms.
   

• I would tend to agree. The state legislature does as well. Unless the person carrying a firearm is the owner or an authorized employee it has been and is still illegal for people to carry a firearm in a bar so the logic of this talking point escapes me.
  2. When firearms are allowed on bar premises, bars' and restaurants' liability insurance skyrockets, leading to higher prices for food and beverages.
  
• The only way that firearms are allowed on premises in a bar are if it is carried by the bar owner or an employee that is authorized by the owner or management of the establishment. What, you have added insurance underwriter to your resume now? Must be tough being the “third best DUI attorney†in the Nashville Metro area as well as a standup comedianand television producer.
  3. Servers don't need to be in the position of patting down customers, or asking them if they have a permit for their weapon. They aren't policemen.
  
• Your servers do not pat me down for pocket knives, box cutters or expandable batons, all of which I have carried into bars. I would hardly expect them to pat me down for a gun. In fact, if a server forcibly attempts to touch me I will, using my hands only, disable a body part of that server then leave the premises calling the police department and filing an assault charge on that server.
  4. According to the law, people carrying guns can't drink in the bar, which means they're taking up a seat that could be used by a paying customer.
  
• According to the law, people carrying firearms can’ even enter a bar.As an attorney you certainly should know that.I can however under the new legislation enter a restaurant that serves alcohol such as Appleby’s, Texas Road House, Ruby Tuesdays, Hooters, etc, have a good meal and enjoy a soft drink or iced tea. When you say that I am not drinking and am “taking up a seat that could be used by a paying customer†does this mean that unless I drink an alcoholic beverage, my money is no good on anything else that I may purchase in a restaurant that also serves alcohol?
  5. You've seen kids get out of hand in restaurants. Imagine the tragedy of one going through mommy's purse and pulling the trigger on her gun. Or what if some homicidal drunk who doesn't have a gun decides to grab one he sees on another patron? Concealed doesn't mean "hidden."
  
• Now you are talking about restaurants. Good. This is where the discussion should be anyway. In your first scenario you ask about the tragedy of a child rummaging around in mommy’s purse and pulling the trigger on a gun within. First of all, allowing a child access to a firearm without adult supervision is against the law. Secondly the children you speak of, at least in the cases I have witnessed in restaurants are most often below the ages of 3-4. These children generally can’t grip and pull the trigger of a quality firearm. Whether they can or not is actually immaterial because carry permit holders are more responsible than the public in general (they have to be in order to get a permit) so they would not be allowing their child to get close to their gun. The same holds true for allowing any unauthorized individual, homicidal drunk or not, to get close to their firearm.
  6. Guns aren't allowed in Legislative Plaza, yet they're perfectly happy with folks carrying them into bars... the hypocrisy of their workplace vs. ours!
  
• Bull-loney! Talk about hypocrisy! Once again you attempt to mislead the public! Neither the legislature nor the law is “perfectly happy†with guns being carried into bars.
  7. It is illegal to drink while armed. A person who consumes alcohol while packing a pistol may be in violation of the law, but that won't matter when someone dies in a heated barroom brawl from a gunshot wound.
  
• It is illegal to drink and drive. A person who consumes alcohol and then drives an automobile is in violation of the law, but that (doesn’t seem) to matter much when someone dies in an awful alcohol induced automobile accident from some stupid drunk that a bar continued to serve and then allow to leave while intoxicated. Stevie Wonder could see the parallel there. Then by your logic bars should not be allowed to serve alcohol.I believe most if not all restaurant and bar owners would take issue with that.
  8. Hunters bring flasks and beer on their hunting trips-- does anyone really think someone is just going to go to a bar, armed, and just hang out and not drink?
  
• What do hunters have to do with anything? Responsible people do not mix alcohol with firearms or operating an automobile for that matter. Did you know that if you had a DUI within the last 5 years you can not get a permit to carry a gun in Tennessee? There you go with the bars thing again. The new law will not change the fact that permit holders can not carry in bars. You make a distinction between bars and restaurants in item number 5. Why do you not do that all throughout?
  9. Even when fired with the best of intentions, bullets sometimes go astray. Fewer guns means there will be fewer accidents and mistakes.
  
• Yes they do. Right now, there are already guns in bars and restaurants not only in Tennessee but I would submit, in most places where there are bars and restaurants. It’s just that they are being carried by people who are actively breaking the law. They are called criminals! It is a proven fact that more guns in the hands of responsible law abiding citizens means LESS crime. Once again, your logic is terribly flawed. I suspect that you know that but I can’t understand why you cling to it.
  10. This new law is making Tennessee a laughingstock. http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/106/Bill/HB0962.pdf will modify Michie's Legal Resources
  
• It didn’t make Texas a laughing stock. It didn’t make Georgia a laughing stock. As a matter of fact I can’t recall any of the 35 other states that allow carrying of a firearm by licensed permit holders in a restaurant that serves alcohol being laughing stocks either.Oh, by the way, each time a law is added or amended Michie’s Legal Resources is updated. They do that as a free service so THEY will not be a laughing stock of legal resources. I’m surprised that as a practicing attorney you didn’t already know that. Oh, wait- I’m sure you did. Just another weak point you use to distract and mislead the public.
  11. Bars are chaotic and noisy and loud. The controlled environment of a pistol range does not qualify a person to think and react the way police officers do. We don't need vigilantes in bars.
  
• Again you talk of bars when the law has and still prohibits carry into bars.When will you tire of attempting to mislead the public?
  12. Finally, if you are so worried about your safety that you feel you need to be packing a pistol to go into such-and-such bar... then you just need to go somewhere else.
  
• Again, your statement is disingenuous in that it suggests that this new law by the state legislature allows carry in bars. It specifically states that it is allowed where meals are regularly served and mentions adequate kitchen and dining room facilities and equipment. A microwave and pickled pig’s feet or Gold Fish crackers and pretzels don’t count. You do make a good point in the balance of your statement however. I do go somewhere else. I go to restaurants that happen to serve alcohol rather than bars. I don’t expect to have to use my firearm to defend myself anywhere I go but then again, neither do most of the unarmed people killed by the criminal element that inhabits this world with us.
  STOP THE INSANITY!
  
• I agree whole heartedly. Stop the scare tactics you wrap in the misinformation you spread as well. Other states, 37 by my count but I may be off by a state or two, have allowed the carrying of firearms by law abiding citizens with state permits in restaurants for years. They do not have blood draining into the streets from their restaurants. Why on earth would you expect it to happen here in Tennessee? Do you think that we state issued carry permit holding Tennesseans are so backward and unkempt as to not to be able to be law abiding?
  

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."

-George Washington

Mike Crow

Austin’s Tennessee Firearms School

154A Talmeda Rd

Oak Ridge, TN 37830

mcrow@firearmsclasses.com

865.483.1108

I wonder if he'll bother to respond. If I hear of anything I'll post it. Again, It ain't gonna change what he's doing but I felt better afterwards.