FFL transfer... receiving FFL asking for Drivers License of the seller???

[TGO David]

Have any of you had a receiving FFL ask for a copy of your driver's license for their records?

I am selling my M&P 40 to a guy in Texas and his FFL has asked for a photocopy of my Tennessee DL. Ostensibly for their own peace of mind or to run a background check on ME as the seller.

I told the buyer that I'm not inclined to do that in the least since I tend to be very protective of my personal identification in this day of ID theft. I know that it's not required by the BATFE as part of an FFL transfer, so it is clearly some quirk that this particular shop has.

I'm waiting to hear back from the shop so I can discuss the matter with them and explain that under no circumstances am I sending them a copy of my DL with all information visible, and furthermore I am not very inclined to send them a copy with my DL# obscured. It's a ridiculous request. They should be more worried about the history of the gun's serial # than with the history of the seller.

[Marswolf]

Sounds pretty dufus to me. I think I'd tell the buyer to find a professional shop to do the transfer.

All they need is the serial number and ID of the buyer. The seller's identity is irrelevant.

[The Rabbi]

I always do to verify the identity of the seller. Relevant section in CFR is 478.125(e). I don't think there is an obligation to collect photo ID, but I'm going to do that anyway.

[TGO David]

Well, I spoke with the gentleman over the phone and he explained that the ATF had been all up in his business over the past few years just as part of their "spot check" routine and that having photo IDs on his transfers saved him a ton of trouble.

Recalling the sort of hell that Red's Trading Post (a well known case) went through with the ATF, I am happy to help this guy stay in business and keep Big Gov't out of his crack.

I ended up sending him a copy of the front of the DL only, stamped with a COPY watermark in several key places so as to ruin someone's chances of exploiting it, and of course minus a copy of the back of the DL.

Thankfully TN no longer includes your SSN as part of your DL information.

[Marswolf]

Which part of CFR 478.125(e) requires the collection of the seller's ID? I couldn't find it.

Checking my green book, I did find ATF Rul. 79-7 that establishes identification requirements for the buyer, but nothing about the seller.

[towerclimber37]

Thats' totally understandable, Tungsten.

As I understand it, Reds' is generating a grassroots movement to curb the ATFU or bring greater oversight to them!

If it were me, I'd defund them all together and start again with a much harsher mandate that they follow the law to the letter.

[The Rabbi]

Which part of CFR 478.125(e) requires the collection of the seller's ID? I couldn't find it.

Checking my green book, I did find ATF Rul. 79-7 that establishes identification requirements for the buyer, but nothing about the seller.

You're exactly right. There are no requirements spelled out there.

OTOH, I don't want to be the one arguing my case against the ATF before an administrative law judge. Thus my store policy.

[Marswolf]

I guess I'm just hard-nosed. I won't even buy a gun from a dealer who wants to photocopy my ID.

Rabbi, it's your right to make your patrons shout. "I am a donkey" three times before you sell them something. But I wouldn't do it. The government is already needlessly intrusive into my life in order to buy a firearm. I draw the line at a businessman adding even more personal regulations. Sorry.

[The Rabbi]

I guess I'm just hard-nosed. I won't even buy a gun from a dealer who wants to photocopy my ID.

Rabbi, it's your right to make your patrons shout. "I am a donkey" three times before you sell them something. But I wouldn't do it. The government is already needlessly intrusive into my life in order to buy a firearm. I draw the line at a businessman adding even more personal regulations. Sorry.

Thats your choice of course. I have people who won't buy from a dealer because "I don't want everyone knowing my business." I wouldn't want to do business with someone like that either. So I guess everyone's square.

[Marswolf]

Yep, my choice. There are lots of other folks out there who won't make me jump through extra hoops to buy from them.

[The Rabbi]

Yep, my choice. There are lots of other folks out there who won't make me jump through extra hoops to buy from them.

It isn't a question of buying but of selling/trading.

[Marswolf]

Rabbi, do you photocopy their ID when someone buys a gun from you?

I can see more of a reason to get a good ID from a seller for a gun that is going into your stock. It may hang around for a while and maybe get reported as stolen while in your inventory. But I can't see a reason to do that as a transfer agent. You never have ownership of the gun and no money tied up in it. If it's later reported stolen, that's between the buyer and the seller.

[molonlabetn]

...OTOH, I don't want to be the one arguing my case against the ATF before an administrative law judge. Thus my store policy.

Does this mean you require a copy of ID for an individual to place a firearm on consignment, as well?

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi, do you photocopy their ID when someone buys a gun from you?

I can see more of a reason to get a good ID from a seller for a gun that is going into your stock. It may hang around for a while and maybe get reported as stolen while in your inventory. But I can't see a reason to do that as a transfer agent. You never have ownership of the gun and no money tied up in it. If it's later reported stolen, that's between the buyer and the seller.

1) No. No point to that. I have already recorded their TNDL number on the 4473.

2) Exactly. Usually the phone number too.

Since the gun gets listed in my inventory and I am transferring it I have responsibility for it. If I go to transfer it and it comes up stolen the cops will come to me for the gun and I will have to explain where it came from. You are right the financial loss will be the buyer's.

[The Rabbi]

Does this mean you require a copy of ID for an individual to place a firearm on consignment, as well?

Yes. Anything that gets listed on my books has some 3rd party source as to where it came from. That might be a wholesaler's invoice, an FFL, or a picture ID.

[Guest Phantom6]

Does this mean you require a copy of ID for an individual to place a firearm on consignment, as well?

Whether they arrive by FedEx, USPS, Pony Express or Gus' VW Microbus, as soon as a gun is left in an FFL's place of business it must be logged into "The Book" complete with Make, Model, caliber, serial # and where it came from. You ought to hear the consignment gun owners scream when they are reminded that they have to pay for a TICS check if they wish to retrieve their firearms. A buddy of mine tells 'em that plain and up front before they leave the guns for consignment but they are so interested in selling some guns and making some cash that it seems to go in one ear and out the other. Then it's like some big Oscar Sierra moment when they want to pick the guns back up if they haven't sold in what they consider a reasonable time.

[Marswolf]

Lots of people doing consignments with a dealer have found out the hard way they have to pay to get their own guns back. That's not right. Maybe if we had a pro-gun President, something could be done about that. Right now, I wouldn't sell on consignment. I'd just take the gun to the parking lot of a show and sell it there.

The question here was about having to provide a transfer agent with an ID if you are the seller. The ATF just doesn't require this. The agent must list the firearm in his bound book. This includes the name and address, or name and license number, of the seller. But unlike the buyer, the seller doesn't have to prove who he is. If the transfer agent requires this, it's a theoretical CYA move. I understand why it is done, but isn't as far as I can find, required by law or ATF regulation.

I certainly would have no problem identifying myself properly to a transfer agent. I'm in the phone book. Call me back and you have a proven phone number and address for me. You don't need a copy of my DL.

We are about to see another invasion of our privacy. The intention is to use biometrics to examine photos posted on the internet and link them to the names of the people in the photographs. See http://www.karmicjustice.org/2006/12/20/when-biometrics-goes-wrong/ for a quick overview. I'm really good at keeping secrets, but I'm not a super-secret person in terms of my personal identity. It's easy to figure out who Marswolf is - just ask me in a PM. But I very seldom post my picture in an open area on the internet and I never post someone else's picture without their permission.

The government has my picture, finger and palm prints, retinal and iris prints. I'm not worried about them. But I'd just as soon not have every nut case on internet pulling up my identity from a photograph. And once I give a photo ID copy to someone, I don't know what they will do with it.

So if you want a copy of my photo ID to do a transfer of a gun I want to sell, no thanks. I'll find someone else for the transfer or just keep the gun.

[The Rabbi]

Actually the dealer has 24 hours to log it in and 7 days to log it out.

[Guest crytes]

Would that mean no log if the gun was just passing through or just you got that long to log it?

Crytes