Crosspost: Blackhawk SERPA Safety Issue

[TGO David]

Copying this from M4Carbine.net ... it should be particularly of interest to those who have performed the weak-hand drill described in this post at any number of training programs that teach it. I know for a fact that we did this plenty at the CIS Defensive Pistol class but I don't recall anyone taking that class with the combination of gear described herein.

Todd & Dustin... might be a good one to keep on file.

----8<----------------------------------

During a recent training event, an officer in a partner agency experienced a problem with his Glock 21 and Blackhawk Serpa holster combination. During support-hand, single-hand drills, he inserted his G21 into his Serpa holster backwards during a drill. When he attempted to draw the gun from the holster, it was locked into place. Removal of the gun required partial disassembly of the holster.

The holster operated as designed.

The problem can be duplicated.

Examine the inside of an empty holster. Along the back wall, there's a plastic bar that starts in front of the trigger guard and ends about halfway to the bottom of the holster. As the gun is inserted, that bar is compressed against the holster body by the dust cover, creating a friction fit. If you insert the gun upside down as described, that lever is compressed first by the front sight, then by the balance of the slide, creating the same friction fit. The trouble starts after the front sight clears the end of that bar. The FS is taller than the slide, and after the end of the bar clears the FS, the bar snaps down onto the slide. When you try to pull the gun back out, the bar catches the FS locking the gun in place.

You can correct the problem by removing the screw that holds the bar in place, or you can slide a long narrow paddle of some sort in to raise the bar above the FS allowing it to clear.

Fatal flaw: This cannot be corrected while in the fight. The gun is stuck.

I could duplicate this holster failure with Glocks 17, 21, and 23 and the appropriate Serpa for each. Unknown how other designs might be impacted.

If users insist on keeping the Serpa, they must not employ this particular method of refunctioning the gun during such drills.

There are many other, high quality, holster options which have no such problems.

Photos of the problem with a G21 follow.

[billkill]

Bump for a good catch!...My nephew has one (G17) I'll ask him about this.

[Guest redbarron06]

Does the same happen with a 1911?

[I_Like_Pie]

Yikes...that 1st picture is scary!!

[Guest flyfishtn]

David, didn't happen on a XD as that is what I was using with my SERPA for the CIS class. I will double again tonight though. Thanks for the post.

[Guest flyfishtn]

Yikes...that 1st picture is scary!!

Not scary, reference for weak hand drill placement of the gun.

[I_Like_Pie]

Not scary, reference for weak hand drill placement of the gun.

I understand that as it was very clear how it happened

scary, reference disaster waiting to happen as locking is not exactly an intended result.

/GI Joannabe makes a mess with a holster locked gun and a "Safe action" trigger. Stuff like this makes Blackhawk sick at their stomach...thus the "There are many other, high quality, holster options which have no such problems." statement

[Guest Sherman A. House]

This is from an article that I wrote for The Outpost's section of TGO a couple of weeks back.

I've received some PM's about why I didn't mention, nor endorse the Blackhawk, "SERPA," holsters, as they are popular with many folks locally here. I could give you my spin on it, but my friend and mentor Paul Gomez has summed it up well here:

Why no Serpa holsters?

“Over the last year, I have developed some serious concerns with the Blackhawk Serpa Active Retention holster design. Various persons have brought these concerns to the attention of Blackhawk on several occasions and Blackhawk has chosen to ignore these very real issues.

The ‘Serpa Active Retention’ design consists of a plastic L-shaped component which functions as the release button [from the outside of the holster] and as the lock [which engages inside the trigger guard]. The short leg of the L-shaped lever pivots inward [toward the pistol], while the locking tab pivots outward to release the pistol from the holster.

According to the Blackhawk website, ”The release is made using your normal drawing motion, with the trigger finger beside the holster body. … As your trigger finger naturally comes to rest on the SERPA lock’s release mechanism, simply push the mechanism as you draw the weapon and it releases the gun for a smooth, fast draw.”

While Blackhawk may intend for the end-user to apply inboard pressure with the flat of the index finger, under stress, shooters tend to push the button with the tip of their index finger. After all, this is the manner in which most people have the most repetitions pushing buttons such as keys on a keypad or phone or ringing doorbells. When the finger pushes in on the release button and the user initiates the upward motion of the draw stroke, the finger tends to stay in motion and as the trigger guard clears the holster, the finger enters the trigger guard and contacts the trigger, with possibly tragic results.

I am aware of two instances where trained personnel have shot themselves using this holster in conjunction with Glock pistols. In August of 2004, a situation occurred with a live weapon that resulted in the shooter losing a 10cm piece of her femur. The other occurred with nonlethal training ammunitions in a force-on-force event in April of 2005. The impact of the NLTA was in the same area as the actual gunshot wound previously mentioned.

Following each of these events, Blackhawk was contacted and advised of the problems observed and concerns raised. In the first instance, they claimed that they were unaware of any previous issues with the design and insisted that the design had been ‘thoroughly tested by law enforcement and military personnel’.

After the second event, they were contacted by at least two people. Again, they stated that they were unaware of any concerns and had heard nothing similar from any sources.” End Quote

[Guest Sherman A. House]

Serpas are trouble...in many ways.

[Guest flyfishtn]

I understand that as it was very clear how it happened

scary, reference disaster waiting to happen as locking is not exactly an intended result.

/GI Joannabe makes a mess with a holster locked gun and a "Safe action" trigger. Stuff like this makes Blackhawk sick at their stomach...thus the "There are many other, high quality, holster options which have no such problems." statement

Cool, just clarifying.

[Guest redbarron06]

Never thought that Serpa and Glock were a good combination anyway.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

While I do like "active retention" features on a holster, I don't like my trigger finger to have to play a roll in it.

CIS has not gone as far as some schools and banned the Serpa from class, but we're not crazy about them.

For those seeking a holster with "active retention," I think this offering from Safariland is better (I use it).

http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=6378

Regarding the OP, and those that do use the Serpa...this is another case of training with, and knowing, your gear.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[Punisher84]

Serpas are trouble...in many ways.

Sounds like a Glock and shooter problem to me. I've shot thousands of rounds from a 1911 with a SERPA and know many who have done so. How many personnel shot? 0

[Metalhead]

Sounds like a Glock and shooter problem to me. I've shot thousands of rounds from a 1911 with a SERPA and know many who have done so. How many personnel shot? 0

You know its funny, I've carried a 19 in a Serpa for a few years now and somehow I havent shot myself either. Then agian, I've never put the gun in the holster backwards either.

[Punisher84]

You know its funny, I've carried a 19 in a Serpa for a few years now and somehow I havent shot myself either. Then agian, I've never put the gun in the holster backwards either.

LOL It helps.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

You know its funny, I've carried a 19 in a Serpa for a few years now and somehow I havent shot myself either. Then agian, I've never put the gun in the holster backwards either.

Then tell us some of the ways you do conduct "injured shooter drills."

While putting the gun back in the holster backwards is not the only method, it is one option widely taught.

[kckndrgn]

I have carried glocks in a Serpa holster for well over a year now, and taken several classes at Range USA. Not once did I have a ND, nor did I shoot myself.

I also just looked at my serpa holster, it does NOT have that little plastic piece referenced in the picture.

And yes, I've heard the stories of trained professionals shooting themselves while using the BH Serpa holster. The first thing that I think of is the line from that DEA video clip "I am the only one professional enough in this room to handle this gun"... BANG. Just goes to show that even professionals can make mistakes.

I have tried to get my finger on the trigger while using my serpa lock, the only way it happens is if I physically move my finger down approx a 1/2" to get it into the trigger guard.

[Guest redbarron06]

People were shooting themselves with glocks a long time before the Serpa Holster came out.

[Guest HexHead]

Then tell us some of the ways you do conduct "injured shooter drills."

While putting the gun back in the holster backwards is not the only method, it is one option widely taught.

Back in the day, the cavalry carried their sidearms on the right side in a cross draw holster, leaving the right hand to handle the saber. When the pistol was used with the right hand, upon re-holstering it, the muzzle would be inserted and then the pistol turned to re-holster with the correct orientation. This can't be done with the Serpa?

[TGO David]

I swear...

This thread wasn't started to debate whether or not you're going to shoot yourself in the ass as soon as you remove the SERPA holster from it's packaging. It was started to alert people to the possibility of a fatal flaw in the design should it be used to do "injured shooter" drills, or worse yet, in a real situation where you ARE the injured shooter.

It's one thing to have a failure like this on the firing line in a class. It's another thing entirely to have a failure like this in real life when the S has already HTF. Think about that! The only reason you'd be inserting your sidearm into the holster backwards would be to do a one-handed reload because your other hand and/or arm was injured. Then your gun CLICKS into place and won't come out due to the SERPA lock jamming against your front sight.

You're already shot once... now you're really screwed.

If your particular SERPA holster doesn't have the plastic tab, awesome. Ignore this thread and enjoy life.

[TGO David]

Sounds like a Glock and shooter problem to me. I've shot thousands of rounds from a 1911 with a SERPA and know many who have done so. How many personnel shot? 0

Sounds like a reading comprehension problem. This thread isn't about shooting yourself because of your holster.

And if you're shooting a 1911, you can afford a better holster than a SERPA.

You know its funny, I've carried a 19 in a Serpa for a few years now and somehow I havent shot myself either. Then agian, I've never put the gun in the holster backwards either.

Then you've never done the drill that the original post was about.

I have carried glocks in a Serpa holster for well over a year now, and taken several classes at Range USA. Not once did I have a ND, nor did I shoot myself.

Again, reading comprehension.

And yes, I've heard the stories of trained professionals shooting themselves while using the BH Serpa holster. The first thing that I think of is the line from that DEA video clip "I am the only one professional enough in this room to handle this gun"... BANG. Just goes to show that even professionals can make mistakes.

I have tried to get my finger on the trigger while using my serpa lock, the only way it happens is if I physically move my finger down approx a 1/2" to get it into the trigger guard.

Read the first post. Was it even remotely dealing with this problem?

Back in the day, the cavalry carried their sidearms on the right side in a cross draw holster, leaving the right hand to handle the saber. When the pistol was used with the right hand, upon re-holstering it, the muzzle would be inserted and then the pistol turned to re-holster with the correct orientation. This can't be done with the Serpa?

Holy crap... this wins the honor of being the most unsuspected wild-ass tangent to come up in a SERPA holster thread.

No, I don't think you could do that with an automatic. Revolvers typically have thin little pencil-like barrels whereas automatics have squarish slides unless you're shooting a P-38 or a Luger. And the Cav used leather holsters so obviously there was a little give in the material. The Blackhawk SERPA is injection molded plastic with no give. You can't put a square peg into a square hole and then rotate the peg. Not in this reality at least.

[Metalhead]

Then tell us some of the ways you do conduct "injured shooter drills."

While putting the gun back in the holster backwards is not the only method, it is one option widely taught.

Overreact much? I don't. I'm not one of those operators or anything special. The SERPA is a excellent holster for me, and thousands of other average joes that use them on a daily basis with no problems.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Metalhead

[Punisher84]

Sounds like a reading comprehension problem. This thread isn't about shooting yourself because of your holster.

And if you're shooting a 1911, you can afford a better holster than a SERPA.

Then you've never done the drill that the original post was about.

My reading comprehension is fine, but thanks for asking man. I understand what the original ideal was behind the thread and I agree it could be a problem, and I have done this drill myself before.

My everyday carry holster is a Galco Side Snap Scabbard, but I do alot of training classes with my Serpa. It adds just a bit more complexity to my draw and I like that.

It just seems like everybody wants to blame the SERPA holster for their own negligence most of the time. The gun getting locked in their backwards is a valid point and an issue if you are training this way, but the "finger pushing in and engaging the trigger" comment, well that is shooter negligence.

I'll leave it at that so I don't offend anyone else with my views I guess. Geez.

[TGO David]

It just seems like everybody wants to blame the SERPA holster for their own negligence most of the time. The gun getting locked in their backwards is a valid point and an issue if you are training this way, but the "finger pushing in and engaging the trigger" comment, well that is shooter negligence.

This thread is not about that issue. This thread wasn't even seeking to discuss that issue. This thread was simply a warning about a problem with the design of the holster if an injured shooter drill is performed using the outlined method.

The comments about the finger engaged locking mechanism are off-topic and are killing the signal to noise ratio in this thread.

[Punisher84]

Why no Serpa holsters?

While Blackhawk may intend for the end-user to apply inboard pressure with the flat of the index finger, under stress, shooters tend to push the button with the tip of their index finger. After all, this is the manner in which most people have the most repetitions pushing buttons such as keys on a keypad or phone or ringing doorbells. When the finger pushes in on the release button and the user initiates the upward motion of the draw stroke, the finger tends to stay in motion and as the trigger guard clears the holster, the finger enters the trigger guard and contacts the trigger, with possibly tragic results.

I am aware of two instances where trained personnel have shot themselves using this holster in conjunction with Glock pistols. In August of 2004, a situation occurred with a live weapon that resulted in the shooter losing a 10cm piece of her femur. The other occurred with nonlethal training ammunitions in a force-on-force event in April of 2005. The impact of the NLTA was in the same area as the actual gunshot wound previously mentioned.

David,

This is what I was referencing and this was how it got brought up. I'm again sorry I interrupted your thread.