Approaching Local Government officials about park carry?

[Fallguy]

While it seems several of the larger cities and counties are already working on resolutions to prohibit carry in their parks I haven't heard to many post about smaller areas.

I've had heard anything about where I live (Milan/Gibson county) working on such a resolution.

Part of me thinks it's best to just keep quite and not bring up something that may not be on their mind. However another part thinks it would be better to start trying to educate them and argue our side before there is a bunch of public pressure against it or maybe even stop it from coming up in the first place.

What are your plans/thoughts on the local governments in your area?

[Guest Patty]

Well, now would be the time to start getting involved with your parks and recreation depts. Maybe start by doing some service work for them. And continue to stay active. And then at some point and time, if and when a issue does come up, you might have some positive influence on the subject.

[Guest logicprevails]

Most of the smaller counties/municipalities will likely be opting out. Unfortunately staying silent on the issue in hopes of not putting it on their collective radar won't work. Most of the smaller to mid sized municipalities are members of the TML risk pool (liability insurance, worker comp, public safetly liability, etc., etc.). TML just had it's statewide conference and it was a topic of discussion. Also, I'm sure MTAS and CTAS will be advising cities and counties to opt out. Since the legislation doesn't require an ordinance (2 readings) but merely a resolution (1 reading) it will be rather quick and easy for most to opt out.

[Titansfan]

There are no county parks in Weakley County, all the parks are maintained by city governments (Martin, Dresden, Gleason, Sharon and Greenfield). Being that I live out in the county, my say will not mean much to the boards of the above mentioned towns.

[Worriedman]

In the Jackson area, there are many who have taken proactive steps by contacting members of the City Council to voice their opinions.

I believe that if enough citizens exercise this right, (it is available to all), the real level of support for the right to be personally responsible for one's own safety can be shown. If those who believe that we are due this as members of a free society do not espouse that thought, how are those who are empowered to make the final decisions by their constituents to know?

I have contacted all the City Councilmen, and urged everyone that I can with like beliefs to do the same. Currently, of the 9 council members, I have responses from 5 of the 9 who will vote against closure of parks in Jackson to legal handgun carry by permit holders.

As in all things politic, that could change, but it will only do so if a preponderance of contacts to them reveal a different desire.

Be polite, but be assertive, know the facts and state them.

Most importantly, be counted.

[Daps]

I'm from Jackson also. Would you mind posting those 5 names or you can PM.

Is it a all or nothing opt out? Meaning one park could be posted and another not be?

I can very well see them trying to post up North Park with the tennis courts, play ground, walking trail, soccer fields, and hockey rink. Kate Campbell sit off by itself with no review to anyone. IMO thats the perfect place to get stuck up. The no guns sign came down at the North Library so we do have some pretty good councilmen, who knows. It's going to be interesting.

[Fallguy]

AFAIK they don't have to ban carry in every park under their control. However if the ban carry in a park, then that whole park is off-limits. They can't allow carry in some parts but ban it in others within the same park.

[Titansfan]

I'm from Jackson also. Would you mind posting those 5 names or you can PM.

Is it a all or nothing opt out? Meaning one park could be posted and another not be?

I can very well see them trying to post up North Park with the tennis courts, play ground, walking trail, soccer fields, and hockey rink. Kate Campbell sit off by itself with no review to anyone. IMO thats the perfect place to get stuck up. The no guns sign came down at the North Library so we do have some pretty good councilmen, who knows. It's going to be interesting.

Even though I am from Dresden, being a geocacher, I have visited most if not all the parks in Jackson and surrounding area. I did run into a dirtbag at Savannah Williamson Park near Denmark. I wrote about that experience in a letter to the editor of the Commercial Appeal. That incident happened at 10 am.

Most of my geocaching does occur during the middle of the day and usually I have the park to myself or just a few people around. I typically avoid geocaching in parks in the later afternoons since there are many people around.

In Jackson, I think Muse Park can be the most dangerous.

[Daps]

While we're talking parks. What about ball parks? Like Pringles Park where the Diamond Jaxx play? Will we be able to carry in there?

Could they ban open carry in parks but allow conceal? Is that doable or is carry or no carry.

I think Jackson has a good chance of allowing carry in parks.

[Guest HexHead]

AFAIK they don't have to ban carry in every park under their control. However if the ban carry in a park, then that whole park is off-limits. They can't allow carry in some parts but ban it in others within the same park.

That's correct. The parks can be individually considered. But if they post it, it's the whole park. Can't post the ball fields and not the walking trails in the same park.

[Guest HexHead]

While we're talking parks. What about ball parks? Like Pringles Park where the Diamond Jaxx play? Will we be able to carry in there?

Could they ban open carry in parks but allow conceal? Is that doable or is carry or no carry.

I think Jackson has a good chance of allowing carry in parks.

No, Tennessee makes no distinction between open or concealed carry.

[Daps]

Even though I am from Dresden, being a geocacher, I have visited most if not all the parks in Jackson and surrounding area. I did run into a dirtbag at Savannah Williamson Park near Denmark. I wrote about that experience in a letter to the editor of the Commercial Appeal. That incident happened at 10 am.

Most of my geocaching does occur during the middle of the day and usually I have the park to myself or just a few people around. I typically avoid geocaching in parks in the later afternoons since there are many people around.

In Jackson, I think Muse Park can be the most dangerous.

The thing about Muse is on Sundays a lot black guys/gals like to ride through the park with their radios, 20 inch rims and once the park closes it's a traffic jam on parkway. I'm a black guy and I noticed it so I know everyone else has but at the same time I don't recall hearing any incidents other that it's a gay hang out and that one time they found that one dead guy. Muse is normally heavy populated from what I can tell. Kate Cambell although very small is one I wouldn't like visiting because it sits off in the woods with virtually no one able to see you.

While we're talking jackson. Where does Pinson Mounds fall under state or federal and will carry be allowed there?

[Daps]

No, Tennessee makes no distinction between open or concealed carry.

Ok thanks...

[Worriedman]

While we're talking parks. What about ball parks? Like Pringles Park where the Diamond Jaxx play? Will we be able to carry in there?

Could they ban open carry in parks but allow conceal? Is that doable or is carry or no carry.

I think Jackson has a good chance of allowing carry in parks.

Pringles Park is a commercial venture, and as such, has the right to post like any other entity. It is not a "Park" in the same vein as Muse or Kate Campbell, and is not under the purvey of the City to regulate.

[Fallguy]

Pringles Park is a commercial venture, and as such, has the right to post like any other entity. It is not a "Park" in the same vein as Muse or Kate Campbell, and is not under the purvey of the City to regulate.

I think that is probably correct.

But to clarify a little, although in TN you can OC or CC with your permit, the AG has said that a property owner can regulate the manner in which you carry on their property. In otherwords they can allow CC but not OC or vice versa.

[Worriedman]

I think that is probably correct.

But to clarify a little, although in TN you can OC or CC with your permit, the AG has said that a property owner can regulate the manner in which you carry on their property. In otherwords they can allow CC but not OC or vice versa.

Good to know, thanks for the information.

What is the method of communication for that restriction if it is instituted by the property owner? Is there a Standard for it like the Posting requirements?

[Fallguy]

Good to know, thanks for the information.

What is the method of communication for that restriction if it is instituted by the property owner? Is there a Standard for it like the Posting requirements?

He didn't really say. You can see the AG opinion here Question 7

IMO, this is another one of the reasons for the "substantially similar" language in 39-17-1359. In the sign the property owner could say "...has banned the open carry of handguns....." or "has banned the concealed carry of handguns....." instead of just banning weapons all together.

However based on some of the other answers in the same opinion I would also say that a simple verbal announcement on what type of carry is allowed or not allowed would suffice as well.

[Worriedman]

That could be a situation maker there, no requirement to post, all the owner or his appointed representative would be required to do is inform upon entry, or approach a person openly carrying that has already entered, and the person in question would be required to vacate, or face criminal trespass charges. Another reason possibly to consider concealed carry.

[Guest Phantom6]

While I believe that contacting the Parks and Recreation offices of the counties and municipalities that you live in is certainly important, I would submit that though thye may consult the parks and recreation folks, the decision to post a park or not is going to come from either the county commission or the city council, depending upon who owns the park in question. This means you are going to have to attend a lot of meetings, both committee and full session affairs to be on the watch for upcoming actions by these bodies. When the time comes, you will need to be able to articulate your arguement for not posting the parks in your area if you wish to be able to carry there.

Steve Meade of Oak Ridge, one of the most politically active firearms advocates in our area has prepared a list of talking points that are certainly not in final draft form but do, I believe provide a good framework from which to mount your own defense of park carry in your area. They are as follows:

Regarding (Local Political Body’s name here)

Posting Parks against Permit Holders

• The common goal of everyone here is to ensure our parks are a safe as possible.
  

• We should assume that in this endeavor the path chosen must be consistent with the law and the Constitution of the State of Tennessee. Do we agree?
  

• It is also important that we recognize that the resolution being addressed applies only to Handgun Carry Permit holders and to no one else. The laws covering everyone else have not been changed. The law generally prohibiting weapons in the parks, and the penalty for violation remains the same. Laws regarding shooting, displaying, or any unsafe act with any weapon remain the same.
  

• For many years state and federal the law prohibited the possession of weapons in all federal, state and local parks in TN , accept for personnel such as the rangers, and police and military personnel in the performance of their official duties.
  

• Due to an exhaustive study conducted by the U.S. Department of the Interior, and published in the Code of Federal Regulations which specifically addressed the impact of permit holders on safety and crime rates in parks, forests, and wildlife areas, after a year of study, and considering and responding to over 125,000 comments from across the nation, it concluded that allowing permit holders to carry concealed handguns reduced crime and improved overall safety. In May this year a federal law referred to as the Coburn Amendment was passed by Congress and signed by the President that codifies this decision by the Department of Interior and removes the prohibition of handgun carry for state-licensed handgun carry permit holders in all National Parks and Wildlife Refuges – as long as it complies with the laws of the state the park is in. (You should have several copies of this study with you and remind them that it is easily found on-line.) The bottom line here is, the United States government has declared that allowing permit holders to carry their handguns in parks (and similar areas) reduces crime and increases safety for everyone. Studies by universities and other gun-neutral organizations had shown this from the very first days of issuing carry permits.
  

• In June this year the TN Legislature passed a law which upon enactment allowed these same permit holders to carry handguns in all state-owned or operated parks, campgrounds, waterways, forests, nature trails and similar areas. It also authorized permit holders to carry in all federal parks, wildlife refuges, and such… as allowed by federal law. In part this was because of a study conducted by the Tennessee Department of Safety that showed that permit holders are extremely safe and law abiding. They point out that during 2008 only 12/10,000th of 1% committed an act requiring their carry permits to be revoked. And only a few of these involved a violent act and fewer involved any weapon. There should be no doubt that if a TN permit holder committed a crime with a gun it would be in the media for at least a week. The fact is, the Legislature could no longer support that prohibiting these safe and law abiding permit holders from carrying in parks would prevent crime.
  

• TN Constitution Art. I, section 26 states: “That the citizens of this state have the right to keep and bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have the power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.” TN Attorney General Opinion No. 08-19, dated Feb. 08, states: “Under the language of Art.I,” section ”26, the legislature’s authority to regulate the wearing and carrying of arms is limited to measures that are intended to prevent crime.” Bottom line – measure taken by any government body in TN to restrict the wearing or carrying of arms must be intended to prevent crime. Now laws prohibiting the general public, children, felons, persons under indictment for felonies, fugitives from justice, illegal aliens, alcohol and drug abusers, and those adjudicated as mental defectives from carrying guns – are all pretty easy to support their intent to prevent crime. But when the citizens named have been shown consistently over an extended period of time by numerous independent and government studies to prevent crime, there is no way to support that intent.
  

• So what is this power to post given you by the State Legislature? First, it is not authority to violate the state constitution. It does not relieve you of the requirement to show your measures restricting the right to wear or carry arms will prevent crime. What this law does give you is the legal responsibility for any actions you take. Courts nation-wide (including the U.S Supreme Court) have ruled that when individuals, corporations, or government entities legally remove a persons’ ability to defend themselves , that that individual , corporation, or government entity becomes legally responsible for the safety of that person and anyone that person could have defended. You can be sued for any damages to the permit holders disarmed by your posting, or anyone they could have defended had they been armed.
  

It will remain illegal to have weapons in parks (except for police and military in the performance of their official duties, and the safe and law abiding permit holders we have discussed). The laws about shooting, displaying, or threatening with firearms all stay in place. Just as the members of the commission or council have probably not noticed the (Number of state-licensed permit holders living in your area- this information is easily identifiable through the Memphis Commie Appeal's lists) (or the 220,000 in TN) – they are not going to even notice that these folks who have been quietly and safely carrying their handguns in public for years and years. ……….That is unless theis body votes to ban them from the parks inquestion. In that case a guarantee that you will notice them actively supporting your opponent during your next election.

Looks like a good place to start to me.

Just a thought.

[Worriedman]

Very well though out and applied.

Kudos to the author!

[Titansfan]

The thing about Muse is on Sundays a lot black guys/gals like to ride through the park with their radios, 20 inch rims and once the park closes it's a traffic jam on parkway. I'm a black guy and I noticed it so I know everyone else has but at the same time I don't recall hearing any incidents other that it's a gay hang out and that one time they found that one dead guy. Muse is normally heavy populated from what I can tell. Kate Cambell although very small is one I wouldn't like visiting because it sits off in the woods with virtually no one able to see you.

While we're talking jackson. Where does Pinson Mounds fall under state or federal and will carry be allowed there?

Thanks for the info about Muse. My geocaching throughout Jackson normally takes place as I pass through the city during the week. Been to Muse park about 4 times. One cache, Jackson Mystery, was long, taking two trips to complete. During one of those visits I did encounter disc golf players.

Kate Campbell is isolated without any residential nearby as opposed to North Park.

[jughead]

just heard that soddy-daisy is banning in their parks. cannot confirm. havent been able to reach an elected critter yet. if they did it will definitely effect the way i vote next time.

[jughead]

guess i posted too soon on soddy-daisy. hasnt been voted on yet. finally got in touch with city manager. she says it could go either way at this time. this town has always been a little bit heavy on the rummer mill. so if any of you out have any influence with these political critters now is the time to let them know. my voice has been heard.

[Worriedman]

While we're talking jackson. Where does Pinson Mounds fall under state or federal and will carry be allowed there?

Pinson is a State Park,

TN State Parks: Pinson Mounds State Archaeological Park

and as such, should allow carry, as no local entity can claim jurisdiction, but I would contact TDEC and ask that question directly, I am no authority on the matter. There is a contact location in the following link.

The Official State of Tennessee's Department of Environment and Conservation, State Parks Website

[cadillacdude1975]

you can start off by informing them that by banning legal carry in the parks, they are also making it against the law for off duty police and retired police to carry there as well. the LEOSA does not cover those persons.