What If scenario?

[Guest Rem_700]

I know nobody likes "what if" scenario's,but me and my fiance was eating at Subway last night around 10PM,they was closeing up and a rough scragly looking fella came in,and I immediatly thought to myself,oh please lord,not hear,not now! But it turned out to be just that ,a rough scragly looking person.I thought for sure he was gonna rob the place.Honestly looked like someone dug him out of the trash can and was jittery n such.But anyway,say you was out somewhere and someone comes in with a gun to rob a store or resturant or where ever your at,and the said robber doesn't point the gun at you,and he doesn't even acknowledge your presence there.Do you shoot the guy out of fear that he is going to shoot the clerk or others in the business or out of fear he is going to shoot you? Or do you just kinda try to stay hidden and out of the way and just let all this pass by and hope no one gets hurt?

Me and my fiance was talking about this on the way home last night.She asked me if I would had shot him if he would of pulled a gun and tried robbing the place.I told her that I would had definatly shot him.Because I don't know the mans intentions,of what he plans on doing once he has the money.What are your thoughts on this? I tried to type it the best I could,I hope it makes sense.

[nightrunner]

i would absolutely, out of fear of what he might do to you or what he would make you watch be done to your fiance at gunpoint.

i feel its better to eliminate certain scenarios before they have a chance to play out

[dkd83]

In that scenario, I believe I would have to shoot. Someone pulling a gun and committing a crime meets my criteria for fear of great bodily harm to myself or another.

[S&WForty]

But anyway,say you was out somewhere and someone comes in with a gun to rob a store or resturant or where ever your at,and the said robber doesn't point the gun at you,and he doesn't even acknowledge your presence there.Do you shoot the guy out of fear that he is going to shoot the clerk or others in the business or out of fear he is going to shoot you? Or do you just kinda try to stay hidden and out of the way and just let all this pass by and hope no one gets hurt?

When I started to pursue getting a permit, my thoughts were to save the day if that situation arose. Now, after reading so much over the last two years about such situations, I subscribe to what many say, "Let the 'sheeple' protect themselves." There is too much chance for getting my butt sued. The person or business that you become the free security guard to will not pay for your legal fees.

Am I saying I would never act in such a situation? No. I think many people have an instinct and an extra sense that can kick in, and you "just know it's the right thing to do." Sometimes reacting with instinct or even what some could say is a "knowing" from a higher power will yield better results than a pre-thought-out plan.

Also, your wording above is would you "... out of fear of..." You shouldn't shoot merely out of fear what the crook might do. Maybe he is as scared of the trigger as the clerk. He's just brandishing it to get his way. You fire, you miss (hey, it can happen), and then someone that has zero knowledge on how to use a firearm starts firing hysterically.

You fire, you hit, you wound. You probably get sued.

You fire, you hit, you kill. Some pansy-@$$ liberal minded witness claims the situation didn't warrant your actions. The nearly scared-to-death person you saved is traumatized, and thinks your actions were overboard, too.

Lose, lose, lose. Just duck, keep an eye out, and as I've seen elsewhere, "be a good eye-witness for the police."

Laslty, I could not say "yeah, I'd shoot the guy" until the question states it is clear the perp is completely unstable and could do anything at any moment. At that time, you yourself and your loved ones are clearly in danger, and you have the law clearly on your side.

Edited June 21, 2009 by S&WForty

[alwayspackin]

You can't worry about being sued. You can be sued for anything. And if you can't afford an attorney one will be appointed (man I have heard that phrase a million times).

If a weapon is being banished there will definitely be a body lying on the floor. If you second guess it you will be lying on the floor instead of the bad guy.

[Raoul]

I'm pretty sure this good samaritan Rambo scenario will not pass TN law. If the guy definitely threatens you, you might be ok. You shoot the BG in the back though, and you're probably going away.

[Guest Rem_700]

So what some of you are saying is that if a bad guy comes running in a store demanding money,waveing a gun around and threatening to shoot the clerk or the customers is not grounds enough to shoot him?And that I/permit holder should just keep low and hidden and "hope" the bad guy doesn't shoot him or try to take a hostage which could be your wife,kid,or you? Im not trying to cause an arguement,just a friendly debate.

[Fallguy]

I'm pretty sure this good samaritan Rambo scenario will not pass TN law. If the guy definitely threatens you, you might be ok. You shoot the BG in the back though, and you're probably going away.

You can use the same amount of force (including deadly force) in defense of a third person as you can in self-defense.

39-11-612 Defense of third person.

A person is justified in threatening or using force against another to protect a third person, if:

(1)

Under the circumstances as the person reasonably believes them to be, the person would be justified under §

39-11-611

in threatening or using force to protect against the use or attempted use of unlawful force reasonably believed to be threatening the third person sought to be protected; and

(2)

The person reasonably believes that the intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

[MudBugjr]

I'm pretty sure this good samaritan Rambo scenario will not pass TN law. If the guy definitely threatens you, you might be ok. You shoot the BG in the back though, and you're probably going away.

Just curious why you even have a permit if your not willing to save your own life. Being scared you'll get sued. Saying you might be ok. Man I would rather be alive than might be.

[JayC]

I'm pretty sure this good samaritan Rambo scenario will not pass TN law. If the guy definitely threatens you, you might be ok. You shoot the BG in the back though, and you're probably going away.

I'm pretty sure no DA is going to charge you with anything for shooting a criminal in the process of robbing a place with a gun. That is a classic example of reasonable fear of death of grave bodily harm if I've ever heard of one...

As a matter of fact I seem to recall a robber here in Middle TN that almost exactly matches this scenario, bad guy robs a store and is shot at by one of the customers, the customer isn't charged with a crime... I know for a fact we had a liquor store robbery a few years back where a customer shot and killed the bad guy, and wasn't charged...

[Guest cjr]

Just curious why you even have a permit if your not willing to save your own life. Being scared you'll get sued. Saying you might be ok. Man I would rather be alive than might be.

+1

If I am in fear for mine or a family members life I would pull the trigger with out a worry of being sued.The problem comes in wear I have to justify being sued for a stranger.

If a person points his finger inside of his jacket pocket and tells me he is going to kill me or a family member I would pull the trigger befor he gets the words out of his mouth.

If the same BG points the same finger in the same jacket at someone other than a family member I would have to make sure the threat is real befor I put my life on the line.

Not saying your life is worth less than my families,just saying I can face the jury and have them belive I was in fear of life and not just RANBO.

The reason I have a license to carry is because it is the law!!

[Wingshooter]

If a guy comes into a place where I am and pulls out a gun to commit a crime, then I would be in fear for my life. If I feel that there is a threat to my life (or a loved one), then I wouldn't think twice about defending myself.

You can count on video cameras picking up the encounter, but if your life is in danger, then you are justified. I wouldn't worry about being sued in such a scenario.

Every situation would be different, though. It could be that things happened fast, and the guy is on his way out the door with a wad of cash before you know what's happened. In that case, I'd just let him run...

[Guest cjr]

The last thing I want to do is take a mans life,

Only after my mag is empty and my body is drained of blood will another take one of my family members!!

[Guest Phantom6]

"What if Scenarios" are extremely important in exercising your rights to carrying a firearm and self defense. They help you determine ahead of time a plan of action that could affect the rest of your life.

Regarding this scenario as presented, be sure of what you are doing. If he (the dirt bag turd) is simply waving a gun, IMHO you would be better off being a good witness unless he waves it at you. If he raises the gun to fire at the clerk, or gets agitated and seems about to fire on the clerk or begins to turn towards you and yours, then gun him into the floor but be sure you can hit the threat and not the clerk or others. Here is a case in point- A man sits in a prison called Craggy Correctional near Ashville, NC today for being a Good Samaritan at “stop and rob” late one night. He’s standing in the aisle across from the register there with his selected drink in his hand studying the chips and crackers and a dirt-bag turd enters waving a gun at the clerk announcing a hold up. Having just gotten his permit he determines that he is going to save the day and draws his pistol. His first shot flies past the right shoulder of the bad guy and goes through the wall to the left of the clerk. Bad guy begins to turn on him. Seeing this, the permit holder fires again excitedly and his second shot zips right behind the head of the turning bad guy and strikes the clerk in the jaw, seriously wounding her. Now the bad guy is bringing his gun to bear on the Good Samaritan but the permit holder finally finds his mark and connects with the bad guy nicking the spinal cord, dropping him to the floor and paralyzing him while his gun goes skittering across the tile floor. Good Sam dials 911 and administers first aid to the clerk. He’s a hero right? Well, when the cops arrive they find that the first shot he fired, the one that went through the wall, struck the night manager in the head killing him instantly thus ending his efforts working on the night's paperwork. Unintentional for sure, but dead all the same. In the trial it came out that the dirt bag had robbed several stores in the area with a gun but had never pulled the trigger on anyone. The jury decided that if the “Good Samaritan” had simply been a good witness, the likelihood of anyone being seriously injured, let alone being killed that evening was extremely low and convicted the permit holder. Sad for everyone involved (except the dirt bag) but true none the less. Yes, this was in North Carolona and not Tennessee but I'm going to go with the outcome for our "hero" being pretty much the same if that had happened in a Pilot Food Market in Knoxville, Nashville or anywhere else around here.

The moral of the story is don’t let your bravado get you or any other innocent killed or convicted. Be sure and be on target.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Phantom6

[dralarms]

As I've said before, I'm just a witness unless the BG starts shooting innocents or I believe he is without a doubt gonna start killing people. Other than that I'm staying low and observing everything I can.

[Guest HexHead]

I got my permit making the decision to be responsible for my own safety. I have no desire to be a wannabe cop and I'm not armed to stop crime. If I've learned anything over the past few months reading all the vitriol directed to us by the anti-gun crowd is this.... I've decided to be responsible for my safety and they haven't. I sure hope they aren't counting on me to intervene on their behalf.

And if they're wearing an Obama t-shirt, they can count on me being a lousy witness too. LOLOLOL

The store's insurance will cover them for the financial loss. So I don't care if they're being robbed. Unless the guy starts shooting the place up or makes eye contact with me, well then all bets are off.

[Guest Muttling]

I just a new punk to the board so take this with a grain of salt....

That said, I think Phantom double capped the 10 ring with...

"What if Scenarios" are extremely important......

Regarding this scenario as presented, be sure of what you are doing. If he (the dirt bag turd) is simply waving a gun, IMHO you would be better off being a good witness unless he waves it at you. If he raises the gun to fire at the clerk, or gets agitated and seems about to fire on the clerk or begins to turn towards you and yours, then gun him into the floor but be sure you can hit the threat and not the clerk or others......

The moral of the story is don’t let your bravado get you or any other innocent killed or convicted. Be sure and be on target.

I would also like to add one comment to the notes about being charged and being sued.

I don't care how RIGHT you are in using your weapon. If you don't have a license to carry or you're carrying where you shouldn't be or you're packing synthetic hollow points (e.g. illegal rounds), you WILL be charged with a crime even if you're doing the right thing. Keep your carry legal or you will be charged with a felony for illegal carry. What you did with the weapon you carried is irrelevant.

Next, I don't care how right and legal you are....If you shoot someone, you will be sued. It's total crap and you will win if you keep your ducks in a row, but you will have to pay money to defend yourself against the suit. Welcome to the wonderful world of ambulance chasing laywers.

Know the laws about when you can and can't use. If you are forced to use, then do so. After have been required to use, don't talk to anyone without a lawyer. It really screws the police, but it may save your butt when the law suit comes and saving your butt should be the reason you used in the first place.

[Punisher84]

I you're packing synthetic hollow points (e.g. illegal rounds),

.

Just FYI everything else you said was great, but the hollow point thing...don't believe everything you read on the internet

I'm not a hero. I don't carry a gun to be a hero. I won't say what I would do one way or the other. I make judgements based on the exact situation at that time.

No scenario is the same, that is why training is so damn important. You can't just be able to fire your gun accurately. You have to have the mindset to assess the situation, recognize the target and collaterals, and then engage or disengage. If you engage you need to be prepared to do what is necessary to keep you and everyone that is not a target alive.

[Punisher84]

Next, I don't care how right and legal you are....If you shoot someone, you will be sued. It's total crap and you will win if you keep your ducks in a row, but you will have to pay money to defend yourself against the suit. Welcome to the wonderful world of ambulance chasing laywers.

This too...TN now has laws in place that protect you from a civil suit if you are not legally liable in the shooting. Doesn't mean you can't be sued, but it's more or less agreed that it will keep the lawyers you mentioned from taking frivolous cases.

[Guest HexHead]

I don't care how RIGHT you are in using your weapon. If you don't have a license to carry or you're carrying where you shouldn't be or you're packing synthetic hollow points (e.g. illegal rounds), you WILL be charged with a crime even if you're doing the right thing. Keep your carry legal or you will be charged with a felony for illegal carry. What you did with the weapon you carried is irrelevant.

Not exactly. It appears TCA 39-17-1322 disagrees with you....

39-17-1322. Defenses. —

A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part if the person possessed, displayed or employed a handgun in justifiable self-defense or in justifiable defense of another during the commission of a crime in which that person or the other person defended was a victim.

[Punisher84]

Not exactly. It appears TCA 39-17-1322 disagrees with you....

Keep in mind that's merely a defense though. Doesn't mean you can't be charged and put on trial.

[Fallguy]

Keep in mind that's merely a defense though. Doesn't mean you can't be charged and put on trial.

Correct, but you do have a chance at least.

....and maybe even more of one than you'd have, had you not been armed and/or used it....

[Guest HexHead]

Keep in mind that's merely a defense though. Doesn't mean you can't be charged and put on trial.

While I realize a ham sandwich can be indicted, it does say...

"A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part..."

[Fallguy]

While I realize a ham sandwich can be indicted, it does say...

"A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part..."

The TN Supreme court has already said a person can still be charged. By the very nature that is says or convicted...the only way to be convicted would be to be charged.

39-17-1322 really needs some work done to it at some point.

[Punisher84]

Correct, but you do have a chance at least.

....and maybe even more of one than you'd have, had you not been armed and/or used it....

True.

While I realize a ham sandwich can be indicted, it does say...

"A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part..."

LOL ham sammich.

My point was a DA could always charge you and a judge could throw it out based on that defense. I'm just bringing up the old debate points that there are still people who say that law doesn't apply now because the new laws canceled it out. Not wanting to rehash the debate, just cautioning anyone (especially a new member) from thinking they have some magical legal loophole to carry where ever they want as long as they don't get caught while not defending themselves.