Challenge "Guns-in-bars" Law: Nashville attorneys David Randolph Smith & Adam Dread

[Motasyco]

In some states a restauarant where alcohol is served is still considered a restaurant and not a bar. Could they be counting states where guns are allowed in restaurants but not bars but under the laws of that state there is no difference in restaurants where alcohol is served and where it is not? Restaurants are defined in some states as an establishment where over 50% of the revenue is from food and they're only counting states where guns can be carried in "bars" with over 50% of the revenue coming from alcohol sales. That could certainly skew the numbers.

[Falcon1]

Why do I get the feeling you guys may have just offended clowns everywhere?

I apologize to those wonderful professional and amateur people who have sought to pursue a noble art...but not him.

[Guest logicprevails]

Guns in "bars" is ILLEGAL---how stupid are some people?

"Guns in bars" was illegal before and is still ILLEGAL--is the media not smart enough to read or what? An education is required to be a journalist yes?

Maybe we should jsut sue all of the opposition legislators, news media and 'super lawyers' for misrepresentation of facts for calling it 'guns in bars' in the first place.

[Guest dlstewart01]

Lawyer talk, half truths and out rights lies.

What Ky says:

Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on premises which is primarily devoted to that purpose.

They define BARS, not restaurants that serve food and alcoholic beverages.

All the states carry laws can be looked up on line. Be careful the problem is not all states carry laws have been updated after new legislation was passed such as carry where alcohol is served. You have to ask about the law to carry where alcohol is served.

Utah

Summary

Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.

Legal Disclaimer We make every effort to provide correct information on this site. However, the legal landscape surrounding open carry is fluid and subject to a myriad of political influences in the various states. Therefore, any and all information you glean from this site should be independently verified! Forum To read real open carry stories from Utah or to contribute your own, click here State Constitution Article I, Section 6

The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the legislature from defining the lawful use of arms. Minimum Age to OC 18 (Valid Permit Required) Preemption Complete State Preemption of All Firearm Laws

NOTE: Almost all states allow local regulation of the discharge of firearms Open Car Carry You may carry in your vehicle open or concealed just like in your home. Private Sales Private Sales Are Legal Permit Issued Concealed Firearm Permit K-12 Carry Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute For Permit Holders

NOTE: The Federal Gun-Free School Zones Act Restricts Carry to RESIDENT Permit Holders College Carry Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute

NOTE: Students May NOT be Subject to Academic Sanctions For Exercising This Right

Places Off Limits

• Houses of Worship
  

State Law

• Utah Code
  

Official Documents State Organizations Local Ordinances Concealed Carry Available at Handgunlaw.us

What Michagin says:

• Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian
  
  
• Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
  
  
• Sports arena or stadium
  
  
• A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
  
  
• Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons
  
  
• An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
  
  
• A hospital
  
  
• A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
  
  
• A Casino
  
  

"Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed

Either they are brain damaged or think that we are???

Edited June 19, 2009 by dlstewart01

[Guest KevinM]

“The ultimate victory, if it would ever happen, would be for the court to recognize a constitutional right to be free from gun violence, public or private,” Smith said.

This is an absolute joke.

[Guest KevinM]

My interpretation is that they are going to file against Senator Jackson and Representative Todd on the grounds that they misrepresented the facts in their argument with regards to the number of states already allowing carry in restaurants that serve.

BWahahhaaa....that will accomplish absolutely nothing. Going after the Jackson and Todd will go absolutely nowhere. I can tell you the lawyers on our side will end up sending their lawyers home crying for their mommies...If they think we are going to take this lying down they are even more retarded than is already apparent.

[TGO David]

When my wife and I step across the state line into Virginia (300 yards from my house), we can carry into any restaurant - alcohol or not - as long as its "open" carry. And folks do - Chili's, Red Lobster, Logan's, etc. And strangely enough, there are no problems at all... what is it about Tennessee residents that some in government think is so different that we cannot be trusted to behave like the rest of the nation?

The flaw in their logic goes a bit further. Essentially what these morons have been telling Tennessee's permit holders for years now is that you somehow change, insidiously, at a very deep level the moment you step into a restaurant where alcohol is served, an suddenly are no longer trustworthy.

Think about that for a moment. You are allowed to carry your sidearm all day long and go in and out of countless public and private places without incident, but the moment you enter a Chili's or a Logan's Roadhouse restaurant where someone across the restaurant might be enjoying a beer or a Jack and Coke, you are no longer the same trustworthy, even keeled person that you were just outside of that building.

Never mind that you, as an armed person, are not allowed to consume alcohol while carrying. Never mind that this new law does not provide you the latitude of doing so, and comes with stiff repercussions if you do and are caught.

All that matters under this distorted, agenda based mockery of logic is that on one side of the restaurant's doorway you are trustworthy and on the other side, you are not.

Sheer brilliance.

[OngoingFreedom]

What I want to know is this true? For kicks I went to opencarry.org which has nifty maps, including restaurant carry (that serve alcohol). They showed 40 states that allow.

Checking just one, Kentucky, online showed that Kentucky does not in fact allow this.

How can we fight effectively if our information is is faulty?

[TGO David]

Kentucky does allow it.

[Guest 3pugguy]

reasonable, researched, and on-point rebuttals to the Op Ed of major papers, in and outside TN.

If we respond professionally and with facts, including the issues as pointed out by many, e.g. a lawful, HCP possessing person does not suddenly become a raging lunatic, lose all control, and shoot up the place due the fact alcohol is served.

In reality, I would think if HCP was going to cause a problem it would be on the roadways - but I don't know of a rash of people throwing down on Briley Parkway.

So, the argument made by these guys is not very sound and could be shown to be just what it is - hype, half-truths, and an attempt to gain a following.

And I am will try to do some research as time permits, cause I am sick and tired of hyperbole and plain old Bull:poop: about guns and gun laws being presented (and accepted) as the gospel.

My three cents...

Edited June 19, 2009 by 3pugguy
add

[Guest Fenris]

So, if these lawyers sue the state legislators for "misrepresenting their case" and they continue to use language like "guns in bars" can they be countersued on the same grounds?

[Guest dizzielizzie]

Just miscellaneous questions I am throwing out

1. Definition - or fine line as I like to think of it - between restaurant and bar? (Please don't pick on me for I think this has been answered...)

2. Do these "anti carry" morons know what we permitted carriers are required to do to obtain a permit? (I was freaked out over voluntarily getting fingerprinted...)

3. Do non-permitted gun carriers think the new law applies to them too? This is my only concern about the new law.

4. Are all permitted gun carriers responsible enough to realize, even if they let one drop of alcohol pass over their lips, they are breaking the law?

5. Does the nice lady or man who greets me at the door of Walmart (or other stores I go to) know I am carrying a gun because, despite all of the video surveillance they have, I still fear for my safety? I know that's silly but all I ask is for the right to defend myself.

This whole issue is going to get stinkier, smellier, dirtier, and louder until July 14th approaches, and won't quiet down for a couple of weeks after, as we start seeing more and more of those NO signs.

[Fallguy]

Just miscellaneous questions I am throwing out

1. Definition - or fine line as I like to think of it - between restaurant and bar? (Please don't pick on me for I think this has been answered...)

2. Do these "anti carry" morons know what we permitted carriers are required to do to obtain a permit? (I was freaked out over voluntarily getting fingerprinted...)

3. Do non-permitted gun carriers think the new law applies to them too? This is my only concern about the new law.

4. Are all permitted gun carriers responsible enough to realize, even if they let one drop of alcohol pass over their lips, they are breaking the law?

5. Does the nice lady or man who greets me at the door of Walmart (or other stores I go to) know I am carrying a gun because, despite all of the video surveillance they have, I still fear for my safety? I know that's silly but all I ask is for the right to defend myself.

This whole issue is going to get stinkier, smellier, dirtier, and louder until July 14th approaches, and won't quiet down for a couple of weeks after, as we start seeing more and more of those NO signs.

1. There is no legal definitoin of a bar in TN. There is no such thing as a license for a bar. So technically there are no bars in TN. There are some restaurants out there that some may think of as bar though.

2. Some may, but most have no idea.

3. I wouldn't think most do, most know that carry without a permit is illegal period, they just don't care and/or don't think they should have to get a permit.

4. All?....probably not. 99%+, Yes

5. If you even just decently conceal, most people have no clue you are armed. As far as if anyone knows you armed knowing the reason you are armed..opinions are liable to GREATLY vary as to why they think you are.

[RinTN]

What I want to know is this true? For kicks I went to opencarry.org which has nifty maps, including restaurant carry (that serve alcohol). They showed 40 states that allow.

Checking just one, Kentucky, online showed that Kentucky does not in fact allow this.

How can we fight effectively if our information is is faulty?

Kentucky prohibits carry in business and sections of businesses where the "establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose" - where "that purpose" is selling alcohol. So, you cannot do is carry into a bar, as a bar is defined by Kentucky law. But, you can carry in a restaurant that sells alcohol - as a restaurant is defined by Kentucky law.

Tennessee will work in a similar manner, though the two states define "restaurant" differently. Tennessee really doesn't define a bar though, but I assume it would include anything that isn't covered by the restaurant definition.

[OngoingFreedom]

Kentucky prohibits carry in business and sections of businesses where the "establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose" - where "that purpose" is selling alcohol. So, you cannot do is carry into a bar, as a bar is defined by Kentucky law. But, you can carry in a restaurant that sells alcohol - as a restaurant is defined by Kentucky law.

Tennessee will work in a similar manner, though the two states define "restaurant" differently. Tennessee really doesn't define a bar though, but I assume it would include anything that isn't covered by the restaurant definition.

From the Kentucky State Police website:

Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense beer or alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose.

I should have looked closer, thanks to both who straightened me out.

But I still have a concerns about the article. Can anyone refute the article? Like the part about only 15 states having anything "remotely" like our new law?

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

“The ultimate victory, if it would ever happen, would be for the court to recognize a constitutional right to be free from gun violence, public or private,” Smith said.

And this guy is a lawyer? How does one pass law school by not reading the law? Secondly, how would one enforce such a "right"? Britain has outlawed guns, and people still get shot. What? You take the US Government to court if a family member gets shot? That is one of the most ludicrous statements I have ever heard. Maybe I won't have to ever work because the courts will rule I have a "constitutional right" to take other people's money. Holds about as much water.

When will these moron understand that rights are something the government cannot give nor take away? There is nothing in the constitution saying the government has to protect you from another citizen, ANYWHERE. These geniuses should read it sometime before running their mouth.

[RinTN]

...

But I still have a concerns about the article. Can anyone refute the article? Like the part about only 15 states having anything "remotely" like our new law?

Well, I think we've just done that for one state. It's then a matter of doing the same thing for more of them.

The reality appears to be that he's parsing the new TN law as though it allows carry anywhere that allows alcohol. He's right that most states do limit the right to some degree. The thing is, TN will also be limiting the right to some degree - a degree that is less than some states, but more than some others. So, he appears to be excluding those that are even slightly different - and using a very restrictive view of the word "remotely" - to come up with the statement that there are "only 15 states having anything "remotely" like our new law".

He also appears to have automatically eliminated any state that issues carry permits differently than TN does - and those that don't require a permit at all.

[Guest 3pugguy]

From the Kentucky State Police website:

I should have looked closer, thanks to both who straightened me out.

But I still have a concerns about the article. Can anyone refute the article? Like the part about only 15 states having anything "remotely" like our new law?

Well, you could do some internet (or the old fashion way and go to a library) and look up state laws., to refute what is profered as fact by the article.

That is my intent, as time permits - do some research. You obviously have an internet connection (and not being a smart azz with you - not my intent).

[OngoingFreedom]

Well, you could do some internet (or the old fashion way and go to a library) and look up state laws., to refute what is profered as fact by the article.

That is my intent, as time permits - do some research. You obviously have an internet connection (and not being a smart azz with you - not my intent).

I agree.

But here's my point: there seems to be a lot of energy in this thread but not much of it dealing with the substance of the article. It had the "appearance" of doing its homework and therefore should be refuted on the basis of its facts.

Other than opencarry.org and handgunlaw.us I don't have any quick references, and those aren't always correct. I was hoping someone here had either personal knowledge or other quick sources of information.

Yeah I can dig up the information with a lot of effort, but why if it was readily available?

[Guest 3pugguy]

I prefer to find it myself, as some of the web sites may not be correct; the internet is a great tool, but also has a goodly amount of "crappola" out there for the finding. If, however, I research it myself and track back to actual State codes, I can put faith in what I find - that's all I'm saying (and why I didn't want you to think I was trying to be a wise-acre with you).

[RinTN]

...

Other than opencarry.org and handgunlaw.us I don't have any quick references, and those aren't always correct. I was hoping someone here had either personal knowledge or other quick sources of information.

Yeah I can dig up the information with a lot of effort, but why if it was readily available?

I believe that if you go to opencarry.org and select a state, that there are links to the state websites where you can find the actual state laws.

[OngoingFreedom]

I believe that if you go to opencarry.org and select a state, that there are links to the state websites where you can find the actual state laws.

Well, that was the idea of going to opencarry.org. Sorry I wasn't more specific.

Edited June 19, 2009 by OngoingFreedom
Removed smart-ass comment for more refined one.

[threeshot]

Or the NRA site for state laws.

NRA-ILA ::

[OngoingFreedom]

Or the NRA site for state laws.

NRA-ILA ::

Thanks. Believe it or not I've not used that site yet. Very helpful.

[TGO David]

... Several fairly inappropriate comments have been removed from this thread, as have a few posts that referenced them. Carry on...